daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old January 13th, 2011, 03:36 PM   #1341
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,591
Likes (Received): 19378

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingNick View Post
Public Transport with a cost-benefit ratio of 0.25?
The fact that you laugh about something like this proves already you're not really into these things. First of all, you need to be very cautious about what is included and what is not included in cost-benefit ratios. For example, a large portion of income for public transport authorities include subsidized travel. This can range from discounts for certain demographic groups to free travel for students or free or discounted travel for government workers. This is all paid by tax money, but is accounted as general revenue by transportation companies.

It's all about how you approach this. For example, the cost-benefit ratio for a new railway line Breda - Utrecht in the Netherlands ranged from 0.05 to 1.05 depending on the survey. Somebody who wants or do not wants this railway line to be constructed can pick the prefferred method which outcome suits him/her best. For example, the farebox recovery ratio for the New York City subway is often quoted around 60%. However, this is only their operational recovery ratio. If you include all expenses, it is closer to 35%.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old January 13th, 2011, 03:41 PM   #1342
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,591
Likes (Received): 19378

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingNick View Post
Well, this proves me that you have no clue what the situation north of Linz is like. Public transport simply does not exist there.
There are no large population centers north of Linz, which do not require an extensive transit north of the city. Maybe some bus lines for less fortunate groups, but building a new regional railway to places like Bad Leonfelden is really not going to solve traffic problems in Linz in a way a western bypass is not necessary anymore.

Public transport improvements can always be necessary, but this absolutely does not eliminate the need for road improvements. Like I said, the shared target audience and subsequent potential for modal shift is very limited.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 13th, 2011, 03:55 PM   #1343
Surel
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,702
Likes (Received): 2154

You guys should be using "benefit-cost" ratio (BCR), otherwise you are commenting the reciprocal and then your comments are just funny.
Surel no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 13th, 2011, 04:35 PM   #1344
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,591
Likes (Received): 19378

Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Cost-benefit analyses are often wrong by 30-50%, says Wikipedia citing some peer-reviewed articles.
Danish professor Bent Flyvbjerg did some interesting studies about this. "Megaprojects and risk". The main problem with road investment was underestimated usage and slightly underestimated cost, while rail investment had often (grossly) overestimated usage and (grossly) underestimated cost, which means it is financially risky from two sides.

Also interesting is the study about cost escalation and demand forecast problems:
http://flyvbjerg.plan.aau.dk/Publica...AIL61PRINT.pdf



Excluding 2 statistical outliers, you get this:

Last edited by ChrisZwolle; January 13th, 2011 at 04:43 PM.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 13th, 2011, 04:44 PM   #1345
rower2000
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Zurich [CH], formerly Bregenz [A]
Posts: 341
Likes (Received): 91

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
You guys should be using "benefit-cost" ratio (BCR), otherwise you are commenting the reciprocal and then your comments are just funny.
LOL, you're right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
There are no large population centers north of Linz, which do not require an extensive transit north of the city. Maybe some bus lines for less fortunate groups, but building a new regional railway to places like Bad Leonfelden is really not going to solve traffic problems in Linz in a way a western bypass is not necessary anymore.

Public transport improvements can always be necessary, but this absolutely does not eliminate the need for road improvements. Like I said, the shared target audience and subsequent potential for modal shift is very limited.
Well, Bezirk Freistadt has 64,000 people, Bezirk Rohrbach has 57,000 people. Probably 40 or 50% of those commute to Linz. Regional bus lines plus improvements on the existing rail lines like Summerauerbahn and Mühlkreisbahn should definitely bring an advantage here. Both Freistadt and Rohrbach have only infrequent bus and rail connections to Linz in irregular intervals with travel times exceeding 1 hour for 50 km, which is ridiculous and of course cannot compete with cars for commuting. Plus, the bus options also have the problem with traffic jams in Linz and in the rush hour most probably will be delayed. Commuter lines are actually those where public transportation CAN bring the best results if the offers are reasonably matched to what the commuting people demand.
rower2000 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 13th, 2011, 08:06 PM   #1346
Moravian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 747
Likes (Received): 930

Quote:
Originally Posted by rower2000 View Post
LOL, you're right.


Well, Bezirk Freistadt has 64,000 people, Bezirk Rohrbach has 57,000 people. Probably 40 or 50% of those commute to Linz. Regional bus lines plus improvements on the existing rail lines like Summerauerbahn and Mühlkreisbahn should definitely bring an advantage here. Both Freistadt and Rohrbach have only infrequent bus and rail connections to Linz in irregular intervals with travel times exceeding 1 hour for 50 km, which is ridiculous and of course cannot compete with cars for commuting. Plus, the bus options also have the problem with traffic jams in Linz and in the rush hour most probably will be delayed. Commuter lines are actually those where public transportation CAN bring the best results if the offers are reasonably matched to what the commuting people demand.
IMO there are more issues concerning the A26-bypass in Linz. Please let me summarize that:


a)Linz is the third largest city (with heavy industry) in Austria, so it generates (itself) the large volume of the car traffic.
b)the commuting to Linz - first of all from Muehlviertel - is the real matter to be tackled,
c)the motorway A7 coming via Linz is very very busy road - in Austria jus behind the city motorways (sections) in Vienna.
d)it is tricky issue if the construction of the A26-motorway is the right step forward and if it is the (seeked) omnipotent remedy for traffic issues there. It is definitely no so easy to build-up any ring-road in that city located in Danube valley.
d)the motorway ("schnellstrasse) S10 between the current ending of the A7 and the county town Freistadt is just u/c. It will be surely step forward - first of all for the commuters...The national road B310 is a bit "old-fashioned" road there - many villages on the way, plenty of corners etc...The section between Freistadt and the Czech boarder (S1) will be built later on. It is not so urgent project. Anyway, it is not so easy to plan any infrastructure-project in region Muehlviertel - as the structure of the local settlement - so called "Versiedlung" there. Many small villages, mountain hamlets etc. (for planning of the motorway-junctions, bus-stops etc.),
e)there is quite good road No.126 between Linz and Bad Leonfelden (after its reconstruction (I do not know the national road No.127 to Rohrbach)
f)the savings project of ASFINAG in Austria has to be taken into the account - and the project of the A26 is definitely very expensive project,
h)the project of the A26 is the political issue - issue between the goverment in Vienna and local goverment in Linz (Upper Austria),
g)the fact is there is large agglomeration Linz-Traun-Wels, significantly developing(shopping centres, industrial zones etc.). The fact is that the local road like the national road No.1 or No.136 are improved and have been (partially) undergoing the widening-reconstruction....
h)the railway-connection between Linz and Muhlviertel is not fully able to compete - in comparison with car commuting.....
Moravian no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 13th, 2011, 08:35 PM   #1347
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,591
Likes (Received): 19378

Most industry of Linz is located on the east side of the city though (port on the Danube), where A7 already runs. The A26 will be extremely expensive, though I can see that after 2020 fewer new motorways are needed in Austria, which means funding may become available for "luxury" projects like A26 as a full-blown motorway. As far as I know, a "Sparautobahn" (discount autobahn) is also an option.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 13th, 2011, 08:45 PM   #1348
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 766

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
What many people fail to address is that public transport and road transport cater two different target audiences. Yes, there is some overlap, but not enough to argue a motorway is not necessary because there will be investment in public transport. Especially in Europe where public transport is already fairly extensive and frequent, the additional modal shift is extremely limited. For instance in the Rotterdam area, the investment of around € 1 billion in public transport instead of a motorway link would reduce road traffic by 0 - 1%.

This is even more evident in freight transport. For example they have the highest truck tolls in the world in Switzerland, which was introduced in 2001. They hoped freight traffic would shift to rail. However, in the last 20 years, there has been no more increase in rail-based tonnage km than could be called "autonomous growth" (10% in 20 years or only 0.5% per year on average). It is true truck traffic through Switzerland decreased somewhat after the implementation of the Schwerverkehrsabgabe, but no significant modal shift to rail has occurred. In the same time, trans-Alpine truck traffic through Austria increased over 30% between 2001 and 2004. Austria is simply getting trans-alpine truck traffic that otherwise would've driven through Switzerland.
I agree with the first part, except that sometimes people use cars (or trucks) because of laziness and not for lack of alternatives. If really there can't be public alternatives then roads may/should be built.

About the second part, swiss transalpine rail traffic rose around 34% between 2002 and 2008 (19 to 25.5 millions of tonnes), road traffic around 37% (10.5 to 14.4 millions of tonnes). Trucks were around the same number, 1.249.000 (2002) and 1.275.000 (2008) (truck weight limit increased from 28 to 40 tonnes). Further rail traffic increase is not probable until 2020 as railways are already saturated (Simplon-Lötschberg, even with the new tunnel) or with low height clearance that limit semitrailers to 3.80 m (Gotthard line - but it is not worth increase the profile on a line which will loose most traffic in the next 10 years - also other tunnels not replaced by this line are still too low, but it is hoped to enlarge them within them opening of the new line).

Also the Brenner railway has capacity problems for example around Innsbruck (these will partly be solved in 2012 with a new line). Remember that road transport got a lot of new multi-lane motorways, while most railways have still to concentrate all traffic on one track per direction, on lines of the original network (comparable to old national roads).

Beside that there is really no point to send 30 trucks with 30 semitrailers, as they can be grouped in a single train (when height and congestion problems - be they iNS witzerland, Austria, Germany or Italy - will be at least partially solved).
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 13th, 2011, 08:50 PM   #1349
Moravian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 747
Likes (Received): 930

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Most industry of Linz is located on the east side of the city though (port on the Danube), where A7 already runs. The A26 will be extremely expensive, though I can see that after 2020 fewer new motorways are needed in Austria, which means funding may become available for "luxury" projects like A26 as a full-blown motorway. As far as I know, a "Sparautobahn" (discount autobahn) is also an option.
Yes, the story of the city motorway A7 in Linz is really similar to the troubles of the A23 in Vienna. The industrial part of Linz (the key point are steel works holding VOEST-Alpine) is just connected to the A7. The fact is that there have been huge investment into A7 in Linz in past 10 years. You are right - the idea of so called "Sparautobahn" is discussed in Austria again - as the previous statement of the Ministry of the transport that it is not necessary to build (always) the XXL-Autobahns everywhere and everytime - as there is lack of money at ASFINAG. Maybe, the part of project (of the A26) might be put through as the first stage (new Danube bridge, southern part of the motorway etc....).....
Moravian no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 13th, 2011, 11:01 PM   #1350
x-type
con los terroristas
 
x-type's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Bjelovar [HR]
Posts: 13,465
Likes (Received): 3437

A7 actually has problem because it runs accross the middle of Linz, and it is actually transit motorway because traffic to CZ is not that small. so there should be real bypass of Linz for transit. i drove A7 and it was not too comfortable because it is crowded all the tme.
__________________
Svaki dan sanjam autobahn...
x-type no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 13th, 2011, 11:15 PM   #1351
KingNick
Make Wu'bar Great Again
 
KingNick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,035
Likes (Received): 8709

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The fact that you laugh about something like this proves already you're not really into these things. First of all, you need to be very cautious about what is included and what is not included in cost-benefit ratios. For example, a large portion of income for public transport authorities include subsidized travel. This can range from discounts for certain demographic groups to free travel for students or free or discounted travel for government workers. This is all paid by tax money, but is accounted as general revenue by transportation companies.

It's all about how you approach this. For example, the cost-benefit ratio for a new railway line Breda - Utrecht in the Netherlands ranged from 0.05 to 1.05 depending on the survey. Somebody who wants or do not wants this railway line to be constructed can pick the prefferred method which outcome suits him/her best. For example, the farebox recovery ratio for the New York City subway is often quoted around 60%. However, this is only their operational recovery ratio. If you include all expenses, it is closer to 35%.
Same accounts for building new roads. If you internalize all the costs created by road traffic (real cost transparency), you'll reach an percentage, which is also around 35 %. According to the austrian Federal Ministry for Transport, Innovation and Technology cost coverage was around 32 % in 2007. 1)

1) http://www.bmvit.gv.at/verkehr/gesam...iz07_kap11.pdf, Page 220

But, and that is the very important part: New roads don't solve traffic problems, whereas public transport does, if planned well. One perfect example is the S-Bahn in Salzburg. State and federal State invested around € 250 Mio. in the project "S-Bahn Salzburg" and it turned out to be a total success. 3.4 Mio. riders every year alone on the S3.
KingNick no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 13th, 2011, 11:25 PM   #1352
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,591
Likes (Received): 19378

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingNick View Post
But, and that is the very important part: New roads don't solve traffic problems, whereas public transport does, if planned well. One perfect example is the S-Bahn in Salzburg. State and federal State invested around € 250 Mio. in the project "S-Bahn Salzburg" and it turned out to be a total success. 3.4 Mio. riders every year alone on the S3.
3.4 million per year = 9.300 per day.

That's nothing compared to what roads in Salzburg carry. A1 carries 95.500 vehicles per day. At 1.2 persons per vehicle this translates to around 115.000 persons per day, compared to your "total success" of a mere 9.300 persons per day.

A motorway widening from 6 to 8 lanes will cost around € 20 million per km in a moderate dense urban area. Say this is for 10 kilometers. That's € 200 million to cater 115.000 people. Now compare this to the "total success" of € 250 million for the 9.300 people of the S-bahn.

It's needless to say how much tax money is spent on a per-traveler basis when you compare it to roads, public transport comes out very bad. This doesn't mean we shouldn't cater public transport, but one has to be critical and skeptical, because we're talking about a lot of tax money that can only be spend once.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 13th, 2011, 11:37 PM   #1353
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,531
Likes (Received): 21237

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post

Beside that there is really no point to send 30 trucks with 30 semitrailers, as they can be grouped in a single train (when height and congestion problems - be they iNS witzerland, Austria, Germany or Italy - will be at least partially solved).
It depends on what cargo is being transported. For "critical" cargo and just-in-time operations, the opportunity costs of time lost in rail freight are far higher than any extra cost for diesel or truck drivers' wages.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old January 14th, 2011, 12:00 AM   #1354
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 766

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
It's needless to say how much tax money is spent on a per-traveler basis when you compare it to roads, public transport comes out very bad.
Not always, Milano-Seregno railway, from 15.000 to 40.000 daily trips only adding new train trips (not many new vehicles, no new infrastructure, mainly better organisation).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
It depends on what cargo is being transported. For "critical" cargo and just-in-time operations, the opportunity costs of time lost in rail freight are far higher than any extra cost for diesel or truck drivers' wages.
Some trucks with air freight containers (that is something that have to be delivered quite quickly) are sent from an airport around Freiburg im Breisgau to Novara by train. But apart from exceptions, a lot of trucks could be grouped and shipped together.

Other statsitics for 2008. Of the 1.275.000 trucks crossing Swiss Alps 707.000 are in transit, 568.000 internal traffic or import-export. 6.410.000 crossed Austrian Alps, of them 3.229.000 were in transit (until Wechselpass/A2). For French Alps, 2.864.000 and 1.180.000 respectively (including Ventimiglia). "Transit" is intended (obviously) as from Italy to another nation different from France, Switzerland and Austria via one of them. Most transit in France is Italy-Spain-Portugal.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 14th, 2011, 12:01 AM   #1355
g.spinoza
Lord Kelvin
 
g.spinoza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Torino
Posts: 9,485
Likes (Received): 2102

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
3.4 million per year = 9.300 per day.

That's nothing compared to what roads in Salzburg carry. A1 carries 95.500 vehicles per day. At 1.2 persons per vehicle this translates to around 115.000 persons per day, compared to your "total success" of a mere 9.300 persons per day.
What's the purpose of comparing a motorway long hundreds of kilometers, which serves a traffic mainly of long distance travelers, with a local city S-Bahn?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post

A motorway widening from 6 to 8 lanes will cost around € 20 million per km in a moderate dense urban area. Say this is for 10 kilometers. That's € 200 million to cater 115.000 people. Now compare this to the "total success" of € 250 million for the 9.300 people of the S-bahn.
This line of reasoning is also wrong. You should compare the increased capacity of the widened road to the S-Bahn capacity, not the whole motorway.

And let me say this, you cannot measure "total success" only by number of people transported. It is an environmental and social success.
g.spinoza no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 14th, 2011, 12:02 AM   #1356
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,591
Likes (Received): 19378

The 95.500 count is just in Salzburg itself, not the number of vehicles which use the entire motorway. That's also one of my pet peeves with toll road data, they often only provide information about the usage of the entire toll (sub)system instead of per road segment (between two junctions).

The highest confirmed traffic count in Austria is on A23 near Wien-Handelskai with 194.200 vehicles per day. However, this is the section between A4 (Wien-Prater) and Handelskai. It's likely the bridge section is slightly busier, probably around 200.000 - 210.000 vehicles per day.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 14th, 2011, 12:20 AM   #1357
KingNick
Make Wu'bar Great Again
 
KingNick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,035
Likes (Received): 8709

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
3.4 million per year = 9.300 per day.

That's nothing compared to what roads in Salzburg carry. A1 carries 95.500 vehicles per day. At 1.2 persons per vehicle this translates to around 115.000 persons per day, compared to your "total success" of a mere 9.300 persons per day.

A motorway widening from 6 to 8 lanes will cost around € 20 million per km in a moderate dense urban area. Say this is for 10 kilometers. That's € 200 million to cater 115.000 people. Now compare this to the "total success" of € 250 million for the 9.300 people of the S-bahn.

It's needless to say how much tax money is spent on a per-traveler basis when you compare it to roads, public transport comes out very bad. This doesn't mean we shouldn't cater public transport, but one has to be critical and skeptical, because we're talking about a lot of tax money that can only be spend once.
How far are you actually thinking? Yeah widen the Autobahn and then? You can't do that in the city. Cities like Linz and Salzburg are already heavily congested and there is no freaking space left for extra lanes. So what's the point increasing road traffic capacity to the city limit? The only way you actually can reduce traffic in the city is by public transport. There is no other way, except everyone starting to ride their bikes to work.

And I was just talking about one line (didn't find data about the other 4), which basically runs along the A10. The A10 at it's busiest part near Salzburg carries 53,435 cars/day and put that into perspective after 5 years of S-Bahn service and annual growth rates around 30 % and more. That is one big relieve to the city of Salzburg.

According to your calculation widening the A10 along the track of the S3 would cost around € 280 Mio (28 km x 10 Mio).
KingNick no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 14th, 2011, 01:15 PM   #1358
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,531
Likes (Received): 21237

If you don't have space, you can:

(1) use eminent domain and torn down buildings near the highway to enlarge it

(2) build some elevated lanes

(3) build tunnels

In Europe, we need to come back with our terms of progress and accept the idea of urban elevated expressways. They are cheaper than tunnels and carry a hell lot of traffic.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old January 14th, 2011, 02:19 PM   #1359
cinxxx
I ♥ Timişoara
 
cinxxx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: München
Posts: 22,236
Likes (Received): 18298

I traveled in Austria this week, from border with Hungry, on A4, than S1, A21, A1, A8 Richtung Passau, not all of the road is perfect, but you can't compare it with the lack of motorways in Romania. Per total I was very pleased by the Austrian roads, also the traffic was not heavy.
cinxxx no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 14th, 2011, 02:54 PM   #1360
KingNick
Make Wu'bar Great Again
 
KingNick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,035
Likes (Received): 8709

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
If you don't have space, you can:

(1) use eminent domain and torn down buildings near the highway to enlarge it

(2) build some elevated lanes

(3) build tunnels

In Europe, we need to come back with our terms of progress and accept the idea of urban elevated expressways. They are cheaper than tunnels and carry a hell lot of traffic.
You didn't read what I posted, right?
KingNick no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
austria

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:25 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium