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Old February 2nd, 2017, 04:57 PM   #2041
k.k.jetcar
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As samurai says, it's all about station dwell time. A single deck design is going to be more efficient in loading and unloading passengers, plus cleaning will be quicker at terminal stations. When you are running an HSR service like the Tokaido shinkansen at metro-like headways, you can't have trains being held up at stations waiting for passengers to negotiate stairs and the like.
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Old February 2nd, 2017, 07:42 PM   #2042
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They used to but found that double deckers takes more time for people to get on and off meaning longer idle time. It also requires more open area for steps and impractical for vendor carts.
Hence the reason for the current N700A trainset with 16 cars, fast acceleration and braking and slight tilting ability to take the sharper curves east of Atami Station faster. That way, they could run more 16-car trains on Hakari and Nozomi service between Tokyo and Shin-Osaka Stations, eliminating the need for double-deck trainsets.
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Old February 3rd, 2017, 04:06 PM   #2043
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k.k.jetcar View Post

As samurai says, it's all about station dwell time. A single deck design is going to be more efficient in loading and unloading passengers, plus cleaning will be quicker at terminal stations. When you are running an HSR service like the Tokaido shinkansen at metro-like headways, you can't have trains being held up at stations waiting for passengers to negotiate stairs and the like.
Exactly, though there are duplex RER's allowing quick embarking/disembarking by having many doors.

But that is, afaik, not a type of door one wants on an HSR, the design has to be changed with the risk that only narrow doors can be used. Or multiple doors next to each other (<10cm in between). A more expensive solution is the Spanish one with platforms but I can imagine that is too costly. With those measures capacity can be tremendous.
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Old February 3rd, 2017, 07:34 PM   #2044
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I wonder if they'll consider terminating the line at Tennoji. If they're already intersecting the Tokaido Line at Kyoto, I don't see a pressing need to follow the line to Shin-Osaka.
What makes you so sure that the Hokuriku Shinkansen will actually run via Kyoto station? What we know so far is that the Hokuriku Shinkansen will have a station in the municipal area of Kyoto. But this does not necessarily need to be Kyoto station.

Even if the Hokuriku Shinkansen would run via Kyoto station. There is still the circumstance that Shin-Osaka is the joint station of the Tokaido and the Sanyo Shinkansen and arguably the second most important station of the entire Shinkansen network. By omitting this hub the Hokuriku Shinkansen would miss out on connections as well as through services to western Japan and Kyushu in particular. This is not preferable to put it mildly.

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They won't require the capacity once the Chuo Shinkansen reaches Osaka since most travelers from Tokyo,Nagoya to Osaka will divert to the Chuo leaving the Tokaido Shinkansen empty.
The Chuo Shinkansen won't add much capacity though. The bulk of the passengers will remain on the Tokaido Shinkansen.
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Old February 3rd, 2017, 07:44 PM   #2045
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Where would they stop aside from Kyoto Station? Kyoto is where all the best interchanges would be.
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Old February 4th, 2017, 02:02 AM   #2046
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Where would they stop aside from Kyoto Station? Kyoto is where all the best interchanges would be.
A station on the west bank of the Kamo River spanning Sanjo and Shijo would also be a good place - providing access to Hankyu, the Tozai Line subway, and possibly Keihan if they build some form of access to the Keihan station on the east bank.

On the other hand, agreed that Kyoto Station is an equally good if not better location, and getting from Sanjo/Shijo Kawaramachi to Kyoto Station involves a change of train at either Karasuma Oike or Tofukuji.

Even if the option is taken not to serve Kyoto Station, a north-south alignment through Kyoto would allow the Hokuriku Shinkansen to take an alternative approach to Shin-Osaka, with its own platforms there. It can then join the Sanyo Shinkansen west of Shin-Osaka, where traffic is lighter.
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Old February 4th, 2017, 04:22 AM   #2047
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Actually, the Hokuriku Shinakansen ending at Kyoto Station is still a good idea.

Why? Because JR West has extensive service on the zairaisen tracks between Osaka and Kyoto with local, Rapid and Special Rapid service (Special Rapid service between Kyoto Station and Osaka Station takes only 30 minutes travel time). And Kintetsu has its own station at Kyoto Station to connect with Kintetsu's extensive Osaka-area network. And Hankyu could put in a short spur line to connect with Kyoto Station for direct connections to Hankyu's extensive network in northern Osaka.
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Old February 4th, 2017, 04:51 AM   #2048
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Running through to Shin-Osaka would enable faster and easier connections to the west of Japan (Okayama, etc.) and to Kansai Airport.

Kyoto Station would enable a connection to the Sanin Main Line, and the suburban services on the Sagano Line section.
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Old February 4th, 2017, 05:00 AM   #2049
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Actually, the Hokuriku Shinakansen ending at Kyoto Station is still a good idea.

Why? Because JR West has extensive service on the zairaisen tracks between Osaka and Kyoto with local, Rapid and Special Rapid service (Special Rapid service between Kyoto Station and Osaka Station takes only 30 minutes travel time). And Kintetsu has its own station at Kyoto Station to connect with Kintetsu's extensive Osaka-area network. And Hankyu could put in a short spur line to connect with Kyoto Station for direct connections to Hankyu's extensive network in northern Osaka.
But... but... through-service from Kyushu, they said! And I believe the intention is also to connect the Hokuriku Shinkansen to JR West's own shinkansen network, so they aren't at the mercy of JR East.

I actually think Hankyu can look into extending their Kyoto Line from Kawaramachi, though Gojo and Shichijo on the Keihan line, then to Kyoto Station from there, no need for a branch.

After all, if I'm not mistaken, Hankyu is better situated to serve central Kyoto than JR or Keihan.
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Old February 5th, 2017, 07:20 AM   #2050
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But... but... through-service from Kyushu, they said! And I believe the intention is also to connect the Hokuriku Shinkansen to JR West's own shinkansen network, so they aren't at the mercy of JR East.

I actually think Hankyu can look into extending their Kyoto Line from Kawaramachi, though Gojo and Shichijo on the Keihan line, then to Kyoto Station from there, no need for a branch.

After all, if I'm not mistaken, Hankyu is better situated to serve central Kyoto than JR or Keihan.
A couple of comments:

1. The W7 trainset is rated at a maximum speed of 260 km/h. Not going to work with N700A and N700-8000 trainsets running between Shin-Osaka and Hakata at speeds up to 300 km/h.

2. The issue is that while the Hankyu Kyoto Line serves central Kyoto well, its very distance from Kyoto Station makes it a non-starter for people getting off Shinkansen trains at Kyoto Station--unless Hankyu pays for a shuttle bus service from Kyoto Station to Kawaramachi Station, the last station on the Hankyu Kyoto Line. Hence my suggestion for a spur line into Kyoto Station itself.
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Old February 5th, 2017, 09:20 AM   #2051
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Originally Posted by sacto7654 View Post
2. The issue is that while the Hankyu Kyoto Line serves central Kyoto well, its very distance from Kyoto Station makes it a non-starter for people getting off Shinkansen trains at Kyoto Station--unless Hankyu pays for a shuttle bus service from Kyoto Station to Kawaramachi Station, the last station on the Hankyu Kyoto Line. Hence my suggestion for a spur line into Kyoto Station itself.
I mentioned extending the Hankyu line from Kawaramachi to Kyoto Station... which pretty much does the same thing as a spur line?

It also has a benefit of providing direct train service to the Kawaramachi (and perhaps Gion) areas, as opposed to the current arrangements of having to take a bus or to change trains. But the engineering effort needed may not be easy, though this can be mitigated by combining the works for the Shinkansen and a Hankyu extension.
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Old February 7th, 2017, 04:15 AM   #2052
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There is already a decent connection between the Hankyu Kyoto Line and Kyoto Station at Karasuma Station, that being the Kyoto Subway. Building another underground line would be cost-prohibitive and unnecessary.
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Old February 7th, 2017, 06:39 AM   #2053
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There is already a decent connection between the Hankyu Kyoto Line and Kyoto Station at Karasuma Station, that being the Kyoto Subway. Building another underground line would be cost-prohibitive and unnecessary.
Not to mention all the red tapes and time consuming academic excavation dig where historians will be scouring the area literally with a fine comb brush.
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Old February 7th, 2017, 02:02 PM   #2054
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There is already a decent connection between the Hankyu Kyoto Line and Kyoto Station at Karasuma Station, that being the Kyoto Subway.
No matter how quick and easy that transfer is, you still have to change trains (and platforms) at least twice when changing from Shinkansen to Hankyu. Reducing that to a single connection at Kyoto station would likely be preferable for most travellers, especially when you realise that the subway will probably be very crowded during peak hours.
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Old February 7th, 2017, 03:31 PM   #2055
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No matter how quick and easy that transfer is, you still have to change trains (and platforms) at least twice when changing from Shinkansen to Hankyu. Reducing that to a single connection at Kyoto station would likely be preferable for most travellers, especially when you realise that the subway will probably be very crowded during peak hours.
Yeah.

To get to Kyoto Station from a Shinkansen station along Kawaramachi between Sanjo and Shijo, there are two choices:

1) Subway Tozai Line from Shiyakusho-mae, via Oike, to Kyoto Station. Then, up three floors. At Oike, the transfer is just a matter of going up one floor, so this is better, plus passengers remain in the same system too.

2) Hankyu Kyoto Line from Kawaramachi to Karasuma, then it's a walk to Shijo subway station. Again, three floors up at Kyoto Station. And on this route you have to break your journey to buy tickets twice.

An alternate option would be to build a (single track?) connecting curve from the Karasuma Line at Shijo to the Hankyu line between Kawaramachi and Karasuma, operated as a branch of the Karasuma Line, eliminating the Shijo transfer. This could also allow Hankyu, Kyoto Subway, and Kintetsu to operate through trains to Kintetsu-Nara from Umeda via Kawaramachi (reversing there) and Kyoto Station.
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Old February 7th, 2017, 07:44 PM   #2056
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Why would Kintetsu offer through service with Hankyu when they can already offer through service from Uehommachi?
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Old February 8th, 2017, 06:26 AM   #2057
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You can't end the line at Kyoto. Osaka is the main economic engine of Kansai, not Kyoto.

As for W7 being rated for 260km/h that really doesn't matter. By the time the line is complete they could quite easily have trains that would run on both the Sanyo and the Hokuriku at full speeds.

I don't know if through-running is that important, mind you. Trains don't through run though at Tokyo Station between the Tohoku line and Tokaido line. I'd prefer to see a North-South Alignment at Osaka to more easily run trains south with a stop in Namba and KIX.

The JR Tokaido Mainline alignment is a decent route. Too bad it's not standard gauge but I wonder if there's room. Maybe run it from Kyoto to Osaka as a mini-Shinkansen on dual gauge tracks.
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Old February 8th, 2017, 06:56 AM   #2058
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Trains don't run through Tokyo for several reasons.

1) Different electrical systems - 50 Hz vs 60 Hz

2) Different companies (JR East, JR Central)

3) Different traffic patterns

4) The need to turn trains

5) Really long runs in either direction

6) Relatively little through traffic

Adding a mini-Shinkansen wouldn't make any sense for the short distance from Kyoto to Osaka, and would massively disrupt a major commuter artery. All existing lines are maxed out. An entirely new line will be necessary.
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Old February 8th, 2017, 03:34 PM   #2059
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The reason why I mentioned Kyoto as the western terminus for the Hokuriku Shinkansen comes down to the following:

1. The Shinkansen line between Kyoto and Shin-Osaka is already running at capacity with Nozomi, Hikari and Kodama trains.
2. Kyoto Station is very well-served by local trains from JR West and Kintetsu (and possibly Hankyu in the future if they can figure out how to run a train into Kyoto Station), so access to the whole Keihanshin region from Kyoto is not an issue.
3. Kyoto already has a number of large corporations based there, so it is a larger business center than people think.
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Old February 8th, 2017, 05:33 PM   #2060
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The reason why I mentioned Kyoto as the western terminus for the Hokuriku Shinkansen comes down to the following:

1. The Shinkansen line between Kyoto and Shin-Osaka is already running at capacity with Nozomi, Hikari and Kodama trains.
All the more reason not to load more people on to it trying to get to Osaka.

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2. Kyoto Station is very well-served by local trains from JR West and Kintetsu (and possibly Hankyu in the future if they can figure out how to run a train into Kyoto Station), so access to the whole Keihanshin region from Kyoto is not an issue.
There is still much better service at Osaka, with connections to Hanshin and Nankai, providing access to Kansai International and Kobe.

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3. Kyoto already has a number of large corporations based there, so it is a larger business center than people think.
But there are still more corporations in Osaka.
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