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Old February 8th, 2017, 10:26 PM   #2061
bluemeansgo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Zy99 View Post
All the more reason not to load more people on to it trying to get to Osaka.







There is still much better service at Osaka, with connections to Hanshin and Nankai, providing access to Kansai International and Kobe.







But there are still more corporations in Osaka.


Which is one reason the Chuo will miss Kyoto completely. If current plans stay the same it will be in Nara and Osaka.
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Old February 9th, 2017, 04:13 AM   #2062
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There is still much better service at Osaka, with connections to Hanshin and Nankai, providing access to Kansai International and Kobe.
I still disagree, since from Kyoto Station, Kintetsu trains can reach most destinations on its network, particularly Osaka Uehommachi and Osaka Namba Stations in central Osaka (which also serve Hanshin trains). JR West has Special Rapid service trains with limited-stop service from Kyoto to Osaka Station in Umeda (and beyond to well west of Kobe), and from Umeda can get on Hanshin trains at Hanshin Umeda Station. Also, JR West runs the Haruka airport express train from Kyoto Station to Kansai Airport, too.
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Old February 9th, 2017, 06:39 AM   #2063
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But Hanshin and Nankai can be reached DIRECTLY from Osaka. And Kobe is much faster and easier to get to from Osaka (or so people will perceive). Plus Wakayama, and the Fukuchiyama Line.

And there's still all of the MANY businesses in Osaka that would prefer not to have to deal with the transfer penalty getting up to Hokuriku and vice-versa.
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Old February 9th, 2017, 11:02 PM   #2064
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Shin-Osaka is the main JR WEST terminal for Shinkansen. JR WEST is going to do everything possible to run the train to Osaka. It's where quite a few Shinkansen services start and stop for West Japan and Everything about the station is JR West.

Three Shinkansen services terminate at Shin-Osaka:
- Kodama ( all stops )
- Mizuho ( super express )
- Sakura ( express )

If the line terminated at Kyoto, you'd be forcing people West of Osaka in Kobe, Okayama, Hiroshima, Fukuoka (Hakata) to change trains in Shin-Osaka. They'd also be changing to JR Central to get to Kyoto.

Terminating at Shin-Osaka means that JR West keeps the revenue passenger from start to finish... all the way up to Myoko. They keep the passenger on their trains and completely off of JR Central. This means they don't have to share the revenue.


JR WEST wants to keep passengers off the ORANGE Line:




If I were JR West, I'd push for that. As it is, they're missing out on the most profitable segment in the world, the Tokyo-Osaka run. JR Central's kind of an interloper into Tokyo and Osaka. I don't know the history, but to me it looks like it was drawn this way to provide Nagoya with some consolation.

They may the city that most pass through between the two big boys, but they control the the revenue.

In fact, it's theorized that one of the reasons that JR Central chose to run the new Chuo line to Shinagawa was because they could buy up and control more of the land in that area. Shinagawa is not a terribly convenient station. Shinjuku ( or even Shibuya) would have served FAR more people and given Tokyo two main train-ports into the city, but

Shinjuku is:
A) EXTREMELY busy and complicated to build into
B) 100% JR East domain

Anyhow, unless politics change, you can guarantee that JR West will be terminating at Kyoto. They may choose to build a new station in Northern Kyoto, but honestly I don't know where they're going to find the room.

The BIGGER question I have is how are they going to serve Obama? Are they just going to come close to Obama (Higashi Obama) and double back and follow the 367 down to Kyoto and Osaka, or are they going to tunnel straight south from Obama?

If it's the latter, then I can see them having a new station in West Kyoto.

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Old February 10th, 2017, 12:25 AM   #2065
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Those last couple of paragraphs are confusing.

I suppose you mean that JR West will terminate at Shin-Osaka? I suppose that it would call at the existing Kyoto station, and possibly have a stop somewhere between there and Shin-Osaka.
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Old February 10th, 2017, 03:52 PM   #2066
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
The BIGGER question I have is how are they going to serve Obama? Are they just going to come close to Obama (Higashi Obama) and double back and follow the 367 down to Kyoto and Osaka, or are they going to tunnel straight south from Obama?
My guess would be to put it close to Shinhirano Station or Kaminaka Station and then rename it to Shin-Obama and keep the overall alignment pretty straight between Tsuruga and Kyoto.

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1. The Shinkansen line between Kyoto and Shin-Osaka is already running at capacity with Nozomi, Hikari and Kodama trains.
I don't think that it's as bad as you might believe.
Currently there are a maximum of 14 trains/hour (actually only a maximum of 13 trains/hour west of Nagoya) on the Tokaido Shinkansen. And since they could theoretically run in 3 minutes intervals then they should be able to fit up to 20 trains/hour, especially on this stretch.
Why?
Well there are no intermediate stations between Kyoto and Shin-Osaka and all trains stops at both of them. Meaning that they don't have to schedule trains with a spacing to allow for faster trains to pass slower ones or allow extra time for the slower trains to stop at a station so that the faster train won't have to slow down after it.
Meaning that there is easy space to accommodate up to 7 more trains/hour on that stretch, as long as the Hokuriku Shinkansen trains can keep up with the N700 series trains of the Tokaido Shinkansen, which the current generation can't at the moment.
The question is though, would JR Central allow them to share the track.
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Old February 10th, 2017, 06:14 PM   #2067
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I would run from Tsuruga, through Mihama (calling there) to Higashi-Obama.

Then, I would turn south, running between Mount Sajikigatake and Mount Minako. I would merge with the Tokaido Shinkansen in the Higashiyama Ward of Kyoto, having a flying junction as the two lines emerge from the last tunnel just before Kyoto station (Hokuriku tracks outside of the Tokaido tracks). There would then be a four-track stretch running directly into Kyoto station.

Different acceleration curves and top speeds could be handled by adding a couple of passing sidings on the run to Shin-Osaka.
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Old February 11th, 2017, 01:44 AM   #2068
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Zy99 View Post
I would run from Tsuruga, through Mihama (calling there) to Higashi-Obama.

Then, I would turn south, running between Mount Sajikigatake and Mount Minako. I would merge with the Tokaido Shinkansen in the Higashiyama Ward of Kyoto, having a flying junction as the two lines emerge from the last tunnel just before Kyoto station (Hokuriku tracks outside of the Tokaido tracks). There would then be a four-track stretch running directly into Kyoto station.

Different acceleration curves and top speeds could be handled by adding a couple of passing sidings on the run to Shin-Osaka.
It'd be 2045 by then, I would think JR West would already have a common Shinkansen type for both Sanyo and Hokuriku Shinkansens.

Personally, I'd just four-track the line between Kyoto and Shin-Osaka, with two tracks operationally belonging to the Hokuriku Shinkansen, and two to the Tokaido Shinkansen. Unless they do some magic with the timetables, the Hokuriku Shinkansen would need its own platforms at Kyoto anyway because some Tokaido Shinkansen trains wait for other trains to pass at Kyoto, if memory serves.

They can't do it at Shin-Osaka because all the terminating capacity there is needed to turn trains from Kagoshima (and in future, Nagasaki), since they don't go to Tokyo, and the occasional Kodama run from Tokyo. Of course, it wouldn't be unwise to expect some trains from Kanazawa/Joetsumyoko to also turn at Shin-Osaka.
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Old February 11th, 2017, 06:38 AM   #2069
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Let's say they can extend the run of the Hokuriku Shinkansen all the way to Shin-Osaka, since there are no stations between Kyoto and Shin-Osaka Stations.

An issue could be that JR Central--who owns the Tokaidō Shinkansen tracks east of Shin-Osaka--will have to impose a 260 km/h top speed to keep it compatible with the E7/W7 trainsets traveling between Kyoto and Shin-Osaka. That might not be a good idea since they want to keep the 270 km/h top speed on this part of the Tokaidō line, unless they modify the E7/W7 trainset to run at 270 km/h top speed.
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Old February 11th, 2017, 06:46 AM   #2070
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sacto7654 View Post
Let's say they can extend the run of the Hokuriku Shinkansen all the way to Shin-Osaka, since there are no stations between Kyoto and Shin-Osaka Stations.

An issue could be that JR Central--who owns the Tokaidō Shinkansen tracks east of Shin-Osaka--will have to impose a 260 km/h top speed to keep it compatible with the E7/W7 trainsets traveling between Kyoto and Shin-Osaka. That might not be a good idea since they want to keep the 270 km/h top speed on this part of the Tokaidō line, unless they modify the E7/W7 trainset to run at 270 km/h top speed.
The E7/W7 can already hit 275km/h, but are limited to 260km/h because of the E2s.

Besides, this discussion is pointless, since by 2045 the E7/W7 would be on the way out...
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Old February 16th, 2017, 05:36 AM   #2071
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Originally Posted by 00Zy99 View Post
Those last couple of paragraphs are confusing.

I suppose you mean that JR West will terminate at Shin-Osaka? I suppose that it would call at the existing Kyoto station, and possibly have a stop somewhere between there and Shin-Osaka.


JR West currently terminates at Osaka. JR Central controls track from Osaka to Kyoto. This is why it makes much more sense for the Hokuriku line (JR West) to terminate the centre of the region. It also allows for through routes from Places like Kobe and Okayama to Fukui without changing to JR Central for one stop. The logistics make much more sense.
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Old February 16th, 2017, 11:58 AM   #2072
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
JR West currently terminates at Osaka. JR Central controls track from Osaka to Kyoto. This is why it makes much more sense for the Hokuriku line (JR West) to terminate the centre of the region. It also allows for through routes from Places like Kobe and Okayama to Fukui without changing to JR Central for one stop. The logistics make much more sense.
So you mean that you can't take any Nozomi train (or Hikari which starts at Okayama) from any of those places and go to Kyoto and change trains there? Since they all do through service to Tokyo.

And why are everyone so obsessed with running all the way on a single train. In Japan most train changes can be done with minimum hassle, so I don't really see the problem with having to change trains.
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Old February 16th, 2017, 01:49 PM   #2073
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Japan Bullet train has good speed.
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Old February 16th, 2017, 01:55 PM   #2074
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
JR West currently terminates at Osaka. JR Central controls track from Osaka to Kyoto. This is why it makes much more sense for the Hokuriku line (JR West) to terminate the centre of the region. It also allows for through routes from Places like Kobe and Okayama to Fukui without changing to JR Central for one stop. The logistics make much more sense.
There really isn't any hassle involved with taking a train from Kyoto to Okayama.
Plus a lot of the passengers on the Tokaido line will have got off at Nagoya and Kyoto anyway.
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Old February 16th, 2017, 05:07 PM   #2075
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As things stand, the Sakura and Mizuho trains from Kyushu, as well as some Sanyo Kodama and Hikari services, terminate at Shin-Osaka due to the very busy nature of the Tokaido between there and Kyoto. An extra pair of tracks would enable them to run through.
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Old February 16th, 2017, 06:59 PM   #2076
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JAPAN | High Speed Rail

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So you mean that you can't take any Nozomi train (or Hikari which starts at Okayama) from any of those places and go to Kyoto and change trains there? Since they all do through service to Tokyo.
Yes you can change trains but why force a change? In addition, service like the Sakura stops in Osaka as it is a natural terminus. This is partly due to congestion but no doubt it's also due to keeping the JR West trains on JR West.
Quote:
And why are everyone so obsessed with running all the way on a single train. In Japan most train changes can be done with minimum hassle, so I don't really see the problem with having to change trains.
True, changes have become a way of life and they do a good job of reducing the inconvenience. However the change isn't just the customers we're talking about, it's changing companies as well. All through trains at Shin-Osaka change all staff from JR West to JR Central. There's more to it than just a transfer.

Having two sets of tracks between Osaka and Kyoto connects the entire JR West system.

I just don't get why you'd terminate the Hokuriku at Kyoto. Kyoto/Osaka/Kobe are all JR West cities, all part of the same Kansai region, and this line linking up with the Sanyo line makes sense. Also remember that train companies choose their own trains as well. The Sanyo/Tokaido is a special relationship. Hokuriku/Sanyo makes more sense than Hokuriku/Tokaido/Sanyo.

Add to all this Osaka being the centre and the Chuo line not (currently) planned to hit Kyoto, and you have a stronger case for Shin-Osaka than Kyoto.

Last edited by bluemeansgo; February 16th, 2017 at 07:04 PM.
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Old February 16th, 2017, 09:27 PM   #2077
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Zy99 View Post
As things stand, the Sakura and Mizuho trains from Kyushu, as well as some Sanyo Kodama and Hikari services, terminate at Shin-Osaka due to the very busy nature of the Tokaido between there and Kyoto. An extra pair of tracks would enable them to run through.
There is no point to have through running Kodamas between Sanyo/Tokaido Shinkansen since they are just a feeder to and from the lesser serviced stations along the lines to the bigger ones where the faster services stop at, nothing more. Say you wanted to travel from Shin-Onomichi Station to Shin Osaka then you would take the Kodama to Okayama and then switch to a faster service for the rest of the journey not use the Kodama all the way.
All Hikari Services on the Sanyo Shinkansen run all the way to Tokyo (they only start at Okayama though).
The Sakura and Mizuho don't fulfill the 16-cars 1323 seat norm that JR Central have on all their trains on the Tokaido Shinkansen at the moment, and since they start at Kagoshima-Chuo then it's already a long enough journey that having it terminate at any station along the Hokuriku Shinkansen is just a strange decision since the travel time is so long that most people will fly anyway.
Also as I have stated before, they could easily fit 4 more trains/hour on the Tokaido Shinkansen between Shin-Osaka and Kyoto if they really wanted to. We just have to wait and see what will happen as the Hokuriku Shinkansen reaches Kyoto and when the Chuo Shinkansen opens how they plan to connect to Shin-Osaka.
Also to note is that all trains have a Home Depot where all the service is carried out, and you don't really want them to go too far away from that place, especially considering the strict service schedule they have in Japan.

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Yes you can change trains but why force a change? In addition, service like the Sakura stops in Osaka as it is a natural terminus. This is partly due to congestion but no doubt it's also due to keeping the JR West trains on JR West.
True, changes have become a way of life and they do a good job of reducing the inconvenience. However the change isn't just the customers we're talking about, it's changing companies as well. All through trains at Shin-Osaka change all staff from JR West to JR Central. There's more to it than just a transfer.
I seriously doubt that any Sakura/Mizuho service will go any further than to Shin-Osaka, even if they were allowed to go any further due to reasons I wrote above.
JR Central only wants 16 car trains with 1323 seats so that they easily can change train-sets without having to worry about passengers not having seats, but also maintain a high level of capacity on the line. And so you know, JR West owns a good portion of the 16-car trains that run on the Tokaido/Sanyo Shinkansen lines.
And as I have said before, there is plenty of space for a few extra trains on the Kyoto-Shin-Osaka section if they wanted to due to the lack of intermediate station on that section.
But if you are on a Nozomi train and go from Okayama to Kyoto then you don't have to leave the train, sure the staff change at Shin-Osaka but you don't. Then if you wanted to continue on the Hokuriku Shinkansen from there then it's just one quick change.

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Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
Having two sets of tracks between Osaka and Kyoto connects the entire JR West system.
True, but why spend a massive load of extra money on a pair of tracks when they aren't really needed unless there demand for it. When the Chuo Shinkansen opening they might actually have less trains on the Tokaido Shinkansen and I seriously doubt that they will run more than 4 trains/hour to/from the Osaka area and the Hokuriku area, which is exactly as many trains that they are running from the Tokyo area today.
If there is demand for it then sure why not build quadruple the section.

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Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
I just don't get why you'd terminate the Hokuriku at Kyoto. Kyoto/Osaka/Kobe are all JR West cities, all part of the same Kansai region, and this line linking up with the Sanyo line makes sense. Also remember that train companies choose their own trains as well. The Sanyo/Tokaido is a special relationship. Hokuriku/Sanyo makes more sense than Hokuriku/Tokaido/Sanyo.

Add to all this Osaka being the centre and the Chuo line not (currently) planned to hit Kyoto, and you have a stronger case for Shin-Osaka than Kyoto.
I have never said anything about terminating the line at Kyoto. The plan is to have it connected with Osaka, I just suggested that they shared the space with the Tokaido line trains between Kyoto and Shin-Osaka instead of just wasting a lot of money unless it's absolutely necessary.

But why stop at your combinations and start service from Kagoshima-Chuo to Shin-Hakodate-Hokuto (heck they might have reached Sapporo at this point) now when they will be connected once the Hokuriku line reaches Osaka and you can circumnavigate the whole JR Central area... /End sarcasm...
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Old February 16th, 2017, 10:30 PM   #2078
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Lets say that you want three trains an hour from Kyoto through to Kyoto. And three trains an hour from the Hokuriku through to Shin-Osaka. That's six trains. More than the spare capacity available (which will likely be eaten up shortly by growth on the Tokaido). So yes, a new pair of tracks would probably be useful.
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Old February 17th, 2017, 02:02 PM   #2079
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Zy99 View Post
Lets say that you want three trains an hour from Kyoto through to Kyoto. And three trains an hour from the Hokuriku through to Shin-Osaka. That's six trains. More than the spare capacity available (which will likely be eaten up shortly by growth on the Tokaido). So yes, a new pair of tracks would probably be useful.
What? I don't get the first part at all, do you mean the Sakura and Mizuho's? They will never go any further than Shin-Osaka in my opinion, it would be too much hassle to get them in there and there is no space to have them turn around at Kyoto.
Also with only one quick change (or two if going between to lesser serviced stations) you can get between any two stations west of Tokyo is really excellent in my opinion.

The thing I'm saying is that there easily is space for up to 4 more trains/hour for the Hokuriku Shinkansen to squeeze in on that stretch on the Tokaido Shinkansen if they really wanted to, not 6.
And also I doubt that we will see enough trains to completely fill the Tokaido Shinkansen, to leave absolutely no space what so ever for any additional trains between Kyoto and Shin-Osaka.
They only way that it could happen is if they cut both the Hikari and Kodama services from the Tokaido Shinkansen and only run Nozomi trains, which to be honest won't happen, there will be too much of an uproar from all the smaller towns along the line.
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Old February 17th, 2017, 02:37 PM   #2080
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It is quite plain to see that no solution is going to be easy. There is no doubt that Osaka is a desired terminus for the line instead of Kyoto in the long term. However reality clearly shows that there is no spare capacity on the existing line and little to no physical capacity to add extra tracks to the existing route either. Thus it is worthy and justified for a complete study be made of multiple options. None will be cheap or perfect but any option will be a compromise. Be it a direct corridor to Shin-Osaka or a north-south line through Kyoto, via Nara and then into Osaka by a new western route and possibly serving the airport. There is justification for the Kanto region being served by more than one Shinkansen route, but we will never know until all the figures are crunched and the local politicians, business leaders and the community have their say.
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