JAPAN | High Speed Rail

[Dinivan]

care to explain why are they "the leading nation in railway technology"? And even being the birthplace of high speed rail is debatable; before WW2, Europe operated trains that reached 200km/h in short sections

[sotavento]

Originally Posted by JR-fan

Only RESPECT FOR THE BESTS , the BIRTHPLACE of High Speed Trains and for the country that leads the railway technology ...
JR (East-West-Central-Kyushu) RULES !
Shinkansen FOR EVER !

Fanboyism RULEITINGUE!!!!

High Speed Train = exclusive name of the british IC125 ... aka "the HST"

Same as the TGV is exclusive to the Alstom/SNCF (and others) Train a Grand Vitesse

Shinkansen travelled at a mere 220(?)km/h when it was launched ... other routes had managed to attain the same level of speeds even BEFORE WW2 had started ...

Its a great achievement nonetheless ...

[JR-fan]

You Portuguese are very funny ...
Where is your problem with the Japanese ?
They operated the FIRST HIGH SPEED TRAIN in the world, and i don' t care if you like this or not.

The railway technology says the obvious:
Japan is where regular, high-speed railways were born.
I am sorry but the German and French products (ICE-TGV) came much much later ...

In the present day if they haven' t the strict regulations with the noise they could operate in 405 km/h with the Fastech 360Z.
They hold the world railway record with their Maglev ...
I think this is enough.
Sorry about your Bombardier and Siemens trains but this is the truth.
Not to mention the British wich had steam locomotives when Japanese had Shinkansens ...

[elfabyanos]

I've already said before that I think that the Japanese Shinkansen is "the best" but you're really annoying. People are allowed to have their opinions but you carry on as if Japan is the only place in the world worth talking about.

The Japanese system was the first to use dedicated tracks for a dedicated system. This was not because they were in any way ingenious about this - they had to because the existing system was shit before WW2 and had been bombed during it. A dedicated high speed railway was more of an accident too, as originally the new line was also intended for freight use which proved impractical in the event.

Siemens, Bombardier and Alstom are all producing very high quality technologies that are not inferior to their Japanese counterparts, but instead have certain other strengths - which is not surprising considering the manufacturers designed them that way. If Alstom had had a contract for a Shinkansen type train, they could have developed and built it, just as Hitatchi could probably have built an RFF compatible TGV.

Can you not see how your posts read like the "mine is bigger than yours" type nonsense?

[Gag Halfrunt]

Originally Posted by elfabyanos

If Alstom had had a contract for a Shinkansen type train, they could have developed and built it, just as Hitatchi could probably have built an RFF compatible TGV.

Indeed, Hitachi is building Class 395 trains for fast commuter services using High Speed 1, aka the Channel Tunnel Rail Link. The CTRL follows French technical standards for high-speed lines and uses French signalling systems.

[amirtaheri]

I think it's not so much what you say but the way you say it. Talking like an avid chav who has taken a little too much burberry with their tea for breakfast.

People here like to talk properly. At least, I like to....

[JR-fan]

Originally Posted by elfabyanos

Siemens, Bombardier and Alstom are all producing very high quality technologies that are not inferior to their Japanese counterparts, but instead have certain other strengths - which is not surprising considering the manufacturers designed them that way. If Alstom had had a contract for a Shinkansen type train, they could have developed and built it, just as Hitatchi could probably have built an RFF compatible TGV.

Can you not see how your posts read like the "mine is bigger than yours" type nonsense?

I didn' t want to enter the discussion because i suppose people can read the technical specs of the trains (it appears that you can't or you don' t want).
Do you want to compare same age TGVs and Shinkansens to see that the TGVs uses DC engines (when Shinkansens have Asynchronous), have powered ONLY the two cars at the each end of the composition ?
Not to mention that the Japanese have in some Types of Shinkansens motors in ALL the bogies ...
What else do you want to compare to end with the conclusion that Shinkansens are better than the European trains ?
Even the Velaro (which are real EMUs) do not have the engines which have the Shinkansens (i think they have only 3 of 6 carriages with motors).
In which section the Europeans are betters ?
You speak but you don' t mention NOTHING ...
In your question:
Hitachi and Kawasaki could make TGVs but Alstom i don' think that it can make Shinkansens (until recently).
The reason is the technology that i mentioned above.

[elfabyanos]

Originally Posted by JR-fan

I didn' t want to enter the discussion because i suppose people can read the technical specs of the trains (it appears that you can't or you don' t want).
Do you want to compare same age TGVs and Shinkansens to see that the TGVs uses DC engines (when Shinkansens have Asynchronous), have powered ONLY the two cars at the each end of the composition ?

Wrong - TGVs have ac traction motors. In fact French electric trains have used AC motors since around about the 50s - I believe they started experimenting with in the late 40s (The only reason the British didn't use AC motors for our West Cost route was that at the end of the 50s we had little development experience with it but loads with DC so it was decided to have reliable development over long term cost benefits). So - a/c motors are not that special and in fact I believe the French beat the Japanese to this. When the development of asynchronus came in or whether that's the same or different to 3-phase ac motors and without a slipring design I don't know, but it's irrelevent to your assertion.

http://www.trainweb.org/tgvpages/motrice.html

Synchronous AC traction motor: the motor is excited at a frequency proportional to its rotational speed. There is no collector as on DC motors, which allows a reduction of wear and maintenance costs. (Note: the synchronous AC traction motor is different from asynchronous AC (induction) traction motor. Whereas the latter has a simple cage rotor with no power connections, the synchronous motor has rotor coils fed through slip rings.) In an unusual arrangement considered to be one of the TGV design's strong points, the traction motors are slung from the vehicle body, instead of being an integral part of the Y230 power truck (bogie). This substantially lightens the mass of the truck (each motor weighs 1460 kg), giving it a critical speed far higher than 300 km/h (186 mph) and exceptional tracking stability. The traction motors are still located where one would expect them: in between the truck (bogie) frames, level with the axles, but just suspended differently. Each motor can develop 1100 kW (when power comes from 25kV overhead) and can spin at a maximum rate of 4000 rpm.

Not to mention that the Japanese have in some Types of Shinkansens motors in ALL the bogies ...

And do you know why? To increase efficiency and track maintenance costs the French decided to articulate as many bogies as they could - but that meant not having motor equipment in most of the cars otherwise the weight of the axles would have gone over 19 tons, which was another limit they set to avoid excessive track maintenance. So, they used non-articulated locomotives, but they also motored the non-articulated end axle of the leading and last trainlers, the ones next to the locos, to distribute the weight from teh locos, again to maintain the 19 ton per axle rule.

So, why didn't they use distributed power? (although two of the trailer cars are motored so it's sort of distributed anyway) - It's because they designed to a completely different concept. As it happens the company that builds TGVs builds distributed power trains also - the Pendolinos. It has also just started the AGV, which has distributed power AND articulated bogies - this puts it technologically ahead of any Shinkansen in terms of noise, wear and tear, and eloquent design.

Onto the ICE3 - fully distributed power throughout it's 8 cars so you need to check your facts. Besides, I really don't see what you're point is about some of the cars not being powered - why haul around the (costly) equipment if it isn't needed? Irrelevent though as the ICE3 is fully distributed.

What else do you want to compare to end with the conclusion that Shinkansens are better than the European trains ?
Even the Velaro (which are real EMUs) do not have the engines which have the Shinkansens (i think they have only 3 of 6 carriages with motors).
In which section the Europeans are betters ?
You speak but you don' t mention NOTHING ...
In your question:
Hitachi and Kawasaki could make TGVs but Alstom i don' think that it can make Shinkansens (until recently).
The reason is the technology that i mentioned above.

You are obviously so misinforemed - you need to take off those rose-tinted spectacles. Other reasons why the Europeans are ahead of the Shinkansen is by necessity - TGVs and ICE and many others have to operate on many different power supplies as well as signalling systems.

[JR-fan]

Originally Posted by elfabyanos

Onto the ICE3 - fully distributed power throughout it's 8 cars so you need to check your facts. Besides, I really don't see what you're point is about some of the cars not being powered - why haul around the (costly) equipment if it isn't needed? Irrelevent though as the ICE3 is fully distributed.

WRONG.
Here are my facts ...
In Siemens Velaro ONLY 50% of the bogies are powered.
The distributed traction equipment--50% of all axles are driven--make it possible to fully leverage the adhesion coefficient on track gradients of up to 2.5%.
Now what to tell you ? How much important is to have ALL your bogies powered when you have the geography of Japan ?

Originally Posted by elfabyanos

Other reasons why the Europeans are ahead of the Shinkansen is by necessity - TGVs and ICE and many others have to operate on many different power supplies as well as signalling systems.

This is ridiculous ...
The Japanese don' t have the need to build trains to operate in different voltages and signalling systems.
Which TGVs have ac motors ? You have to specified. The early TGVs have DC motors.
Here is why is this important:


Look the cockpits from same ages (mid 90's) trains:
TGV Duplex

Type 500


Next time elfabyanos dont' be so sure and before all don't be so ironic.

[elfabyanos]

Originally Posted by JR-fan

WRONG.
Here are my facts ...
In Siemens Velaro ONLY 50% of the bogies are powered.
The distributed traction equipment--50% of all axles are driven--make it possible to fully leverage the adhesion coefficient on track gradients of up to 2.5%.
Now what to tell you ? How much important is to have ALL your bogies powered when you have the geography of Japan ?

My mistake. You're original point was that this made Shinkansen superior. ICE3 can deal with 2.5% gradients. Why don't you instead explain why Shinkansen's power design makes it better? Even the series 500 has basically the same power output as an ICE3 for a similar length vehicle. The traction being a factor of axle weight and power - how does this figure? I still don't get what you're trying to say.

This is ridiculous ...
The Japanese don' t have the need to build trains to operate in different voltages and signalling systems.

Exactly - just as ridiculous as your point about distributed power. Needs must and where there isn't a need....

Which TGVs have ac motors ? You have to specified. The early TGVs have DC motors.
Here is why is this important:

Ok yes, the first batch had DC motors, from 1985 onwards they had AC motors. The earlier ones were rebuilt to the same standard as the others later. Can I ask WTF is the picture about? If you had any clue about what you were talking about you would know that the reason why ac motors are important is because they are more efficient and you don't need to have a 1 ton rectifier built in to the vehicle.

Look the cockpits from same ages (mid 90's) trains:
TGV Duplex

Type 500


Next time elfabyanos dont' be so sure and before all don't be so ironic.

Ok you win the argument with those pictures

Why don't you not be so sure instead? The only reason why I'm arguing with you is because of your righteous attitude. I've already told you TWICE that I think Shinkansen is the best high speed railway network in the world. But I'm not a fool and I know there is some good stuff from France and Germany.

[AR1182]

It's really senseless to argue which train is "better" as long as there's no agreement about what exactly makes a train "good" or "bad".

In another thread JR-Fan wrote about the Shinkansen's higher capacity and its rotatable seats (among other things) as something that made it a superior train. He probably won't attach any value to features of other trains that are not shared or topped by the Shinkansen.

[Momo1435]

Another problem with comparing these trains is that they're all build for different type of networks with different specifics. Some good points of the Shinkansen might not be good for the German high speed network and vise versa. The only way to compare them is to look if they do good what they are supposed to do.

And calling Japan the leading nation in railway technology only based on High Speed Rail technology is a bit senseless. Modern freight locomotives are also very technologically advanced and the German Bombardier Traxx and Siemens Eurosprinter locomotives are simply better then their Japanese counterparts.

@JR-fan, why don't I ever see you in the mass transit thread in the Japan sub-forum?


As a bonus a picture taken by me of a 700 series in Kyoto station leaving for Shin Osaka.

[asahi]

@Momo1435: It's 700 series in the picture, not 500

I've been reading this discussion from the very beginning and I agree that it's pointless, but mayby let's just all agree that Japan is the leading country in railway technology just to please JR-fan

[caserass]

Originally Posted by JR-fan

I didn' t want to enter the discussion because i suppose people can read the technical specs of the trains (it appears that you can't or you don' t want).
Do you want to compare same age TGVs and Shinkansens to see that the TGVs uses DC engines (when Shinkansens have Asynchronous), have powered ONLY the two cars at the each end of the composition ?
Not to mention that the Japanese have in some Types of Shinkansens motors in ALL the bogies ...
What else do you want to compare to end with the conclusion that Shinkansens are better than the European trains ?
Even the Velaro (which are real EMUs) do not have the engines which have the Shinkansens (i think they have only 3 of 6 carriages with motors).
In which section the Europeans are betters ?
You speak but you don' t mention NOTHING ...
In your question:
Hitachi and Kawasaki could make TGVs but Alstom i don' think that it can make Shinkansens (until recently).
The reason is the technology that i mentioned above.

lol rubbish. We are not talking about technology of the past but the ones apply today, and as far as I know the TGV is the safest and the fatest TRAIN in the world. As for the maglev, if you want to talk about the TECHNICAL ASPECT well, it's even not a train ! ! !

I also really would like to see hitachi and kawasaki make a tgv, the Japanese still have some problems to find some solutions with the shinkansens to improve the speed , the confort, and the safety of this train , while the TGV standards are now far above.

About history, in 1967 when the japanese train was launched the train could push till 210 km/h, in the meantime, a lot of european trains (from germany, UK and France) could go to 200 km/h. So , frankly, I don't think we really could speak of high speed.... the technology used by the shinkansen was nontheless very good and finally was the begninng of the fastest trains.

[caserass]

Originally Posted by Momo1435

Another problem with comparing these trains is that they're all build for different type of networks with different specifics. Some good points of the Shinkansen might not be good for the German high speed network and vise versa. The only way to compare them is to look if they do good what they are supposed to do.

And calling Japan the leading nation in railway technology only based on High Speed Rail technology is a bit senseless. Modern freight locomotives are also very technologically advanced and the German Bombardier Traxx and Siemens Eurosprinter locomotives are simply better then their Japanese counterparts.

@JR-fan, why don't I ever see you in the mass transit thread in the Japan sub-forum?


As a bonus a picture taken by me of a 500 series in Kyoto station leaving for Shin Osaka.

Very good, excepted that Bombardier is canadian, not german

[JR-fan]

Originally Posted by elfabyanos

My mistake. You're original point was that this made Shinkansen superior. ICE3 can deal with 2.5% gradients. Why don't you instead explain why Shinkansen's power design makes it better? Even the series 500 has basically the same power output as an ICE3 for a similar length vehicle. The traction being a factor of axle weight and power - how does this figure? I still don't get what you're trying to say.

I said that the geography in Japan forced their engineers to look for more complex solutions in the same problems.
OF COURSE the need to have ALL the bogies powered increases radically the cost.
For example Type 500 is the most expensive EMU in the world with the cost of around 50 millions$.
Additionally the problem that Japanese have with earthquake forced them to have automated systems that cuts the power when it detect an earthquake.
All this are facts that don' t have Germans and France.

Originally Posted by elfabyanos

Ok yes, the first batch had DC motors, from 1985 onwards they had AC motors. The earlier ones were rebuilt to the same standard as the others later. Can I ask WTF is the picture about? If you had any clue about what you were talking about you would know that the reason why ac motors are important is because they are more efficient and you don't need to have a 1 ton rectifier built in to the vehicle.

The pic show the problem with heat that have ALL the DC motors.
If you have a clue then you must know it.

Originally Posted by elfabyanos

Why don't you not be so sure instead? The only reason why I'm arguing with you is because of your righteous attitude. I've already told you TWICE that I think Shinkansen is the best high speed railway network in the world. But I'm not a fool and I know there is some good stuff from France and Germany.

The pictures show how is MMI (Man Machine Interface) in the TGVs and in the Shinkansens.That' all.
I agree with you that there is some not only good but EXCELLENT stuff from France and Germany, but I am a fan of the Japanese trains (look my nick).
I don' t understand why anyone could have a problem with that.

Originally Posted by Momo1435

And calling Japan the leading nation in railway technology only based on High Speed Rail technology is a bit senseless. Modern freight locomotives are also very technologically advanced and the German Bombardier Traxx and Siemens Eurosprinter locomotives are simply better then their Japanese counterparts.

I agree with you. In freight locomotives the Europeans are better than the Japanese and you probably know why.
When I speak about Japanese superiority I talk about High Speed Trains and this is my opinion.

Originally Posted by Momo1435

@JR-fan, why don't I ever see you in the mass transit thread in the Japan sub-forum?

You can see that my English is not very good.
Of course I read your (and TRZ) posts there ...
In the other hand if in Japan sub-forum write peoples that are fans of Japanese trains and don't have to make arguments like here I' ll be glad to take part.

Originally Posted by Momo1435

As a bonus a picture taken by me of a 500 series in Kyoto station leaving for Shin Osaka.

THANKS for the excellent Type 700 ...

@caserass
Everybody know the facts of TGVs.
But you must accept that the France is more more better for High Speed Trains than mountainous Japan.
Personally after Japan i admire the Frenchs and their TGV ...

[sotavento]

Originally Posted by JR-fan

You Portuguese are very funny ...
Where is your problem with the Japanese ?
They operated the FIRST HIGH SPEED TRAIN in the world, and i don' t care if you like this or not.

The railway technology says the obvious:
Japan is where regular, high-speed railways were born.
I am sorry but the German and French products (ICE-TGV) came much much later ...

In the present day if they haven' t the strict regulations with the noise they could operate in 405 km/h with the Fastech 360Z.
They hold the world railway record with their Maglev ...
I think this is enough.
Sorry about your Bombardier and Siemens trains but this is the truth.
Not to mention the British wich had steam locomotives when Japanese had Shinkansens ...

Define "high speed" ... a 200km/h train is reluctantly called a high sperd train by trainluvers nowadays ...

In EU it's above 200km/h (above 250km/h for new lines)
In the Americas it's above 145km/h (and bombardier cames from the Canuck land and not europe)

But "historicaly" the move from conventional to high speed railway lines is decides on the basis of saturation of the conventional routes and not the braging achievements ... japanese just happened to have their main line saturated first ... shame on you.

Unmanned rocket sleds that ride on rails have reached over 10,400 km/h (6,462 mph), equivalent to Mach 8.5. The fastest manned rail vehicle is a manned rocket sled, that travelled at 1,017 km/h (635 mph).

HS Trains and MAglevs are SLOW vehicles indeed.

FYIO (if you don't know what it means: "for your information only")

Canada (the land of Bombardier)
United Aircraft Turbo train = 200km/h in the 60's
Via Rail = 200km/h DIESEL trains sinse the 70's
- electric HS trains not needed since the BIGGEST country on earth as LESS population than tokyo
- daily lifes run happily in 900km/h Bombardier AIRPLANES over there (3x faster than your shinkansen hein)

Italy
electric EMU's started running at 200km/h in 1937

Germany
diesel emu at 205km/h

during the 60's a speed of 200km/h was usual in most main lines all over europe.

Until the 1972 oil crisis almost nowhere on earth was electric traction seen as necessary ...

Don't compare a comuter stile corridor like tokyo-osaka with other less populated routes.

[sotavento]

Originally Posted by JR-fan

I said that the geography in Japan forced their engineers to look for more complex solutions in the same problems.
OF COURSE the need to have ALL the bogies powered increases radically the cost.
For example Type 500 is the most expensive EMU in the world with the cost of around 50 millions$.
Additionally the problem that Japanese have with earthquake forced them to have automated systems that cuts the power when it detect an earthquake.
All this are facts that don' t have Germans and France.



The pic show the problem with heat that have ALL the DC motors.
If you have a clue then you must know it.


The pictures show how is MMI (Man Machine Interface) in the TGVs and in the Shinkansens.That' all.
I agree with you that there is some not only good but EXCELLENT stuff from France and Germany, but I am a fan of the Japanese trains (look my nick).
I don' t understand why anyone could have a problem with that.



I agree with you. In freight locomotives the Europeans are better than the Japanese and you probably know why.
When I speak about Japanese superiority I talk about High Speed Trains and this is my opinion.

You can see that my English is not very good.
Of course I read your (and TRZ) posts there ...
In the other hand if in Japan sub-forum write peoples that are fans of Japanese trains and don't have to make arguments like here I' ll be glad to take part.


THANKS for the excellent Type 700 ...

@caserass
Everybody know the facts of TGVs.
But you must accept that the France is more more better for High Speed Trains than mountainous Japan.
Personally after Japan i admire the Frenchs and their TGV ...

Here in calm portugal (in the other tip of the eurasia tectonic) we have lots os earthquakes also ... It seems our construction is better than yours ...

And FYIO we get some 100 quakes (of lower than 5 in richter scale) a month here ... 1 or 2 over 5 every month to make our life more interesting ... some say we are due another 9 any day.


Most HSL in europe are more tunel and viaduct than flat running ... so Japan is no different in that also ...

[sotavento]

Originally Posted by JR-fan

You Portuguese are very funny ...
Where is your problem with the Japanese ?
They operated the FIRST HIGH SPEED TRAIN in the world, and i don' t care if you like this or not.

The railway technology says the obvious:
Japan is where regular, high-speed railways were born.
I am sorry but the German and French products (ICE-TGV) came much much later ...

god bless it's not wikipedia (every time I read it I have to correct some missinformation)

You are claiming that they are the BEST ... not the first ... and they are neither one or the other ...

1st came the italians and germans with their luxurious trains of the 30's at 200km/h

the best are those that take you from megalopolis to megalopolis ah high speeds in confort and then let you in a tiny vacation place in some remote little town ...

Originally Posted by JR-fan

In the present day if they haven' t the strict regulations with the noise they could operate in 405 km/h with the Fastech 360Z.
They hold the world railway record with their Maglev ...
I think this is enough.
Sorry about your Bombardier and Siemens trains but this is the truth.
Not to mention the British wich had steam locomotives when Japanese had Shinkansens ...

... and if pigs had wing they could fly ... if ... if ... bah!!!

the ONLY world record with a maglev that matters to anyone is the shangai one ... since that is the only one that is actualy in revenue service.

Or you only count the standards where shinkansen/japan shines over the others ???

[Momo1435]

Originally Posted by asahi

@Momo1435: It's 700 series in the picture, not 500

Oops