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Old October 16th, 2014, 06:17 PM   #1341
k.k.jetcar
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As a side note, the Cassiopeia is not running at all from this month through the middle of December due to work of preparing shinkansen operations through the Seikan Tunnel.

http://www.jreast.co.jp/cassiopeia/schedule/
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Old October 16th, 2014, 06:56 PM   #1342
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asakaze View Post
Fares for the direct bus offered by Nishitetsu from Shinjuku to Hakata (14.5 hours) start at 8.300 Yen.
In other words, a direct bus exists, but a direct zairaisen does not, and the cost of zairaisen is always at least 170 % of bus price. Obviously zairaisen has no advantage for long distance travel.

What is the longest distance from Tokyo where there actually are direct, daytime zairaisen services?
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Old October 16th, 2014, 08:30 PM   #1343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
In other words, a direct bus exists, but a direct zairaisen does not, and the cost of zairaisen is always at least 170 % of bus price. Obviously zairaisen has no advantage for long distance travel.

What is the longest distance from Tokyo where there actually are direct, daytime zairaisen services?
The Super Twilight Express, which is an overnight sleeper from Osaka to Sapporo is probably one of the longer trains with sleeper services and it is also, sadly, being discontinued once the Shinkansen opens to Hakodate in Hokkaido next spring. Ironically, this has made this train almost impossible to get tickets for. The tickets sell out within seconds of going on sale (1 month ahead of time).

Sleeper services just aren't popular with Japanese people (except when they announce that they're discontinuing them, apparently!). Keep in mind that Japanese people usually have very short vacations. This makes time more valuable than money... which makes flying more economical than trains.

It's a similar pattern to Europe. Although Londoners will take the train to Paris and maybe Spain, they will usually opt for an LCC when flying further.

Long distance trains are also more expensive than ferries and buses, so the price-conscious consumer opts for boats and buses (and recently, LCCs) instead.
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Old October 16th, 2014, 08:39 PM   #1344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
You'll also never be able to compare Chinese and Japanese prices. I mean, look at the average earning power between the two countries. It's a flawed comparison. Of course they'll have to price the CRH lower otherwise they'll not be able to get people to ride it. You should look at the fares as a percentage of median monthly income. Then you'll get a fair comparison.
Too true. Very Different market Two countries separated by a common character set . CHR rail is heavily subsidized and was designed to make the nation more mobile.

It was also built in a very short period of time. The Shinkansen network has grown over 50 years, establishing travel patterns over time. I'm sure we'll see changes in the Chinese network as the median income increases and people settle in different areas.
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Old October 16th, 2014, 08:56 PM   #1345
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Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
Too true. Very Different market Two countries separated by a common character set . CHR rail is heavily subsidized and was designed to make the nation more mobile.
Um. Look at the examples I brought.
Japan Tokyo-Hakata: cheapest zairaisen trip (11 trains!) is over 60 % of Shinkansen price.
China Shenzhen-Wuhan: hard seat on slow train is under 30 % of CRH price.

Which would you suspect of being "heavily subsidized": CRH, or Chinese slow speed rail?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
It was also built in a very short period of time. The Shinkansen network has grown over 50 years, establishing travel patterns over time. I'm sure we'll see changes in the Chinese network as the median income increases and people settle in different areas.
Maybe.
First high speed railway in China was opened in 2007 (speeding up the Qinhuangdao-Shenyang railway).

Second high speed railway in Japan, Sanyo Shinkansen Osaka to Okayama, was opened in 1972 - 8 years after Tokaido Shinkansen.

How does the Tokaido Main Line compare? Back in 1964, Tokaido Main Line zairaisen on the double track electrified line took 6:30. In the same 1964, the first Kodama trains on Shinkansen had the maximum speed of 210 km/h, and took something like 4:10. How did the ticket prices compare in 1964?
And what is the best zairaisen direct train time for Tokyo-Osaka now?
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Old October 16th, 2014, 10:03 PM   #1346
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Which would you suspect of being "heavily subsidized": CRH, or Chinese slow speed rail?
CRH. I'm not familiar with the older Chinese rail network.

If you're interested, information on the overall profitability of the Chinese HSR network can be easily found. e.g. http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-s...00075&cid=1202

If a rail network is running at an operational loss, it means prices are subsidized (by either debt, government funding, etc.).

I don't think this is a bad thing. This rail network is an important long-term play to improve national mobility. Look at how it has transformed Japan.

Quote:
And what is the best zairaisen direct train time for Tokyo-Osaka now?
http://www.hyperdia.com/en/

Hope that helps.
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Old October 24th, 2014, 05:16 AM   #1347
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cr Shunya Ikeda‎
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Old October 24th, 2014, 03:33 PM   #1348
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*Sigh* For the final time before I start deleting everything you post, please give the photos CONTEXT - tell us where they are from! Coupled with that, please give a HYPERLINK back to the original site where the photos are hosted, not just a "credit" mark at the bottom.

I have told, and told you about this and it is imperative for us to get this information or it is just needless posting of someone else's photos.
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Old October 24th, 2014, 03:57 PM   #1349
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At least this time, they are somewhat useful, new, and relatively exotic.

I really appreciate the chance to see the E3 in its new color scheme.
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Old October 24th, 2014, 04:10 PM   #1350
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That's true, but it has to be informative for us all - including those of us on the site who don't know there is a new livery. All that was needed was "New livery on E3 Shinkansen on xxxxx line at xxxx station" followed by "source: http://www*****xxxxxxxx*****". That's really the gold standard for contributions to the site that are not your own.

Context is always good for us all as it stimulates discussion.
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Old October 24th, 2014, 07:00 PM   #1351
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Too many warnings. Give way to the banned status, please.
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Old October 24th, 2014, 09:59 PM   #1352
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He's been infracted again and so next step is brig followed by ban. Worry not, I'm keeping an eye on him.
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Old November 1st, 2014, 01:32 AM   #1353
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Evolution of the maximum speeds on the Shinkansen

Mentioned in another thread, I think your site is this:

210 km/h. 01/10/1964 (day/month/year). First 0 series Tokaido Shinkansen, JNR. Join Tokyo and Osaka, an average of 129 km/h. However, the fastest train between stations was the French Mistral, with an average of 132 km/h. 01/11/1965: first Hikari services (only 8 of the 17 stops) join Tokyo-Osaka in 3 h 10 m, an average of 163 km/h. This line increased its top speed to 220 in 01/11/1986: 22 years to climb 10 km/h !!.
240 km/h. 14/03/1985. 200 F series. Tohoku Shinkansen, JNR. Join Tokyo and Morioka.
275 km/h. 10/03/1990. 200 F90 series. Joetsu Shinkansen, JR East. Join Tokyo and Niigata, 186 km/h on average.
300 km/h. 22/03/1997. 500 series. Sanyo Shinkansen, JR West. Join Osaka and Hakata, 242 km/h on average. Faster than now.
320 km/h. 18/03/2013. E5 series. Tohoku Shinkansen, JR East. Join Tokyo with Aomori, 226 km/h on average.
360 km/h, scheduled for 2020 with E5/H5 series in the Utsunomiya-Morioka section of the Tohoku Shinkansen.

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Old November 1st, 2014, 05:17 PM   #1354
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Are there conditions to use Pendolino-style high-speed trains in Tokaido Shinkansen?

N700 trainsets has an tilt suspension system, but the train inclines only up to 3 degrees at 270 Km/h. Pendolino trains incline up to 8 degrees. I think JR Tokai should consider to buy new 7-degrees tilt trainsets for Nozomi service.
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Old November 1st, 2014, 11:36 PM   #1355
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While parts of the Tokaidō Shinkansen line could be bumped up to 300 km/h (especially between Maibara and Kyoto and portions of the line between Mishima and Toyohashi Stations), there are still considerable speed restrictions between Shinagawa and Mishima Stations due to the considerable curves on that part of the Tokaidō line. Between Shin-Osaka and Hakata Stations, the Nozomi, Mizuho and Sakura trains can reach 300 km/h on N700 trainsets.
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Old November 2nd, 2014, 03:31 AM   #1356
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Pendelino trains would have to meet the noise pollution guidelines. That is usually the major sticking point whenever foreign trains are under consideration. That and profitability and acceleration.

Mind you... If we were to be honest... Neither French nor Japanese train companies would realistically buy foreign trains. Both countries have robust train economies and local contracts will generally be chosen and likely be cheaper anyhow.
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Old November 2nd, 2014, 12:11 PM   #1357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodalvesdepaula View Post
Are there conditions to use Pendolino-style high-speed trains in Tokaido Shinkansen?

N700 trainsets has an tilt suspension system, but the train inclines only up to 3 degrees at 270 Km/h. Pendolino trains incline up to 8 degrees. I think JR Tokai should consider to buy new 7-degrees tilt trainsets for Nozomi service.
There are more technical problems than the ones stated above, like there is no Pendolino train that is approved for 300 km/h service today. The N700 and E5/E6 trains are the highest speed ones that have any degree of controlled tilt.

Also introducing a higher tilt train on the line will force the manufacturer to make a train with a smaller loading gauge so that it will be able to tilt without interfering with the surroundings. This is due to the the tight space you run these lines, the space between the trains and the sizes of the tunnels are "much" smaller than on other high speed lines in the world. And in the end a smaller loading gauge will either reduce the number of passengers or make the trains more cramped, something that I doubt will be welcomed by either JR Central or the public.

The thing is though, the days of Nozomi trains are numbered, especially now when they have got the approval for the Chuo line, which when built will remove the Nozomi service on part (once it reaches Nagoya) and the whole Tokaido line (when it reaches Osaka), making your whole point redundant.

There are speed-up plans for for the Tokaido line, but in reality then the travel times won't plummet more than a few minutes due to the big number of stations on that line and the amount of trains that travel the line today. The plan as I understand is that the section between Kyoto and Maibara could get an speed increase to 330 km/h, the "tight" turns at Mishima could get a raised to 280 km/h and the rest of the line 300 km/h.
But as early as next year (hard to say if it's the fiscal year or not) then we might actually see that some Nozomi trains that will run at up to 285 km/h.
But it will still take some time to get more of them, since only trains fo the N700A standard will run at that speed. So until all trains are of that standard, meaning that the N700 ones need the upgrades and the 700 are all but retired then I doubt that we will see anything faster in the coming years.
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Old November 2nd, 2014, 12:36 PM   #1358
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There is a tilt system for 9 years running at 300 km / h, but not a Pendolino system, is the natural tilting by Talgo, used in 102/112 series.
No need sensors, accelerometers, inclinometers, gyroscopes and GPS, gauge has no problems. Natural tilt, or passive suspension, used by Talgo, is to raise the level of suspended high above the center of gravity, with balls of air suspension pressure on the roof ; thus, the cars are suspended from the dampers: like a pendulum. Boxes lean in corners by centrifugal force, unambiguously and without energy. The maximum slope is 4.5 °. The system is Type B by the locomotive, since the cars are Type C.

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Old November 2nd, 2014, 01:40 PM   #1359
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Ah, missed that one.
But I doubt that even that type of passive solution would work any better on any full Shinkansen line. The way that the Talgo system works then there is too much movement at the bottom of the car so that it will leave the Shinkansen loading gauge, unless they made the train body about 40 cm narrower. Meaning that you were forced to only run 4 abreast seating in the standard car, which would effectively reduce the capacity per train with about 20%, something that wouldn't work too great with the JR central 16-car, 1323 seat train philosophy for the Tokaido Shinkansen Line. It would work on the Mini-Shinkansen cars though, unless it poses any problems for the converted lines off the main Shinkansen lines, since those trains are about 40 cm narrower.

But as I said earlier, the travel time between Tokyo and Nagoya/Osaka is going to plummet massively in 2027 and then even more so once the full Chuo Shinkansen line is complete. And with the planned speed increases with the current trains then you don't really need to invent any new technology to make it all happen.
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Old November 2nd, 2014, 02:09 PM   #1360
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I repeat: no gauge problems, the box "pendula", not tilted.
And cars only measure 13.14 meters length, improving accessibility to have more doors. What is a problem is that the cars have doors too low (0.76 meters).

Natural tilting by Talgo

"The tilting trains are aimed at increasing travelling speed around curves without decreasing passenger comfort levels.

The Talgo trains tilting system is the so-called “natural tilting” system and it consists of raising the suspension’s “instantaneous rotation centre” above the system’s “centre of gravity”. This gives rise to the generating of an “over-banking in the carbody” which provides a decrease in the lateral acceleration felt by the passenger for a similar travelling speed around a curve. In this way, an increase in the lateral comfort level is obtained.

The system is completely inertial and does not need either internal or external elements that make the carbody tilt; therefore it is completely reliable and has no maintenance expenses."
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