daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old February 3rd, 2015, 10:30 PM   #1441
billfranklin
Post and Beam
 
billfranklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 57
Likes (Received): 47

Quote:
Originally Posted by loefet View Post
There is a big difference between Shinkansen and the ICE services in Germany (and fast trains in Sweden for that matter).
Rail traffic here in Europe is often heavily subsidized by the governments, heck in many cases then the national railway companies are owned by the government, same thing for railway maintenance. In the case of the Shinkansen then it's private companies that runs and maintain the whole system, without any major subsidies from the government.
These subsidizations that we have here are sort of necessary, since there are less people here and the lower ticket prices are there to draw people away from using cars to travel between places. That isn't really a problem in Japan, since they have a much higher populations densities and enough people to easily fill the trains, even though they have higher ticket price.

Also I'm pretty sure that the people in Japan pays less taxes then we do here, which is where the government subsidies comes from, meaning that on the whole then the "true cost" of each ticket is about the same.
The Japanese have perfected an integrated transportation system that took well over a century to accomplish.

Today, Japan has 9000km of turnpikes whose cost per kilometer per vehicle is close to the cost per kilometer per person using trains. The turnpikes are priced such that train travel is encouraged AND the expressways are maintained to the highest standards. Likewise, Japan's airline industry has evolved to fill the need for trips that take longer than 5 hours by train, which is the informal yardstick many Japanese use to determine whether or not to take the high speed train. Lastly, Japan has a superb private bus system which works extremely well serving trains that almost always arrive on time.

The issue, IMO, in 2015, is not the 'crowding' when comparing Western European passenger transport, but, the differences in synchronicity between the operating modes. In Japan, schedules can be relied upon, which enables different modes to adhere to precise schedules.

This is not merely a question of government versus private ownership, but, more fundamental: owners and operators of different private rail, bus, and, airlines agree on how each piece of the system works together, first, and then compete ferociously within these agreed upon parameters.

I do grant that the degree of synchronicity between transportation modes is far higher in Western Europe than in the US! (LOL).
__________________

Svartmetall, SamuraiBlue, Equario liked this post

Last edited by billfranklin; February 3rd, 2015 at 10:54 PM.
billfranklin no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old February 4th, 2015, 03:59 PM   #1442
castermaild55
Registered User
 
castermaild55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,213
Likes (Received): 3058

New stations of Hokuriku shinkansen from sky

Nagano-Iiyama-Joetsu Myoko-Itoigawa River-Kurobe Unatsuki onsen-Toyama-Shin takaoka-Kanazawa

__________________

loefet, dimlys1994 liked this post

Last edited by castermaild55; February 4th, 2015 at 04:05 PM.
castermaild55 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 4th, 2015, 04:13 PM   #1443
castermaild55
Registered User
 
castermaild55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,213
Likes (Received): 3058

Hokuriku shinkansen Open Cm ,JR West

__________________

loefet, Equario liked this post

Last edited by castermaild55; February 4th, 2015 at 04:24 PM.
castermaild55 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 4th, 2015, 04:29 PM   #1444
castermaild55
Registered User
 
castermaild55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,213
Likes (Received): 3058

Tohoku shinkansen Aomori area

__________________

loefet liked this post
castermaild55 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 4th, 2015, 05:01 PM   #1445
castermaild55
Registered User
 
castermaild55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,213
Likes (Received): 3058

Hokuriku shinkansen

Itoigawa Station


Joetsu Myoko station: there is still a few around there


Toyama
castermaild55 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 5th, 2015, 05:41 PM   #1446
Sr.Horn
té con pastas member
 
Sr.Horn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 13,462

1/4
Hokuriku Shinkansen public test ride

Kanazawa, February 5, 2015. JR West hold the first public test ride on the Hokuriku Shinkansen between Kanazawa and Nagano and back. Around 300 people participated. On February 7 and 8 more people could enjoy this test rides. More than 200.000 people applied for this series of journeys.

Partial cab-view from Nagano to Kanazawa who simulates Kagayaki service only stopping at Toyama:


Tetsudo Shimbun

Kanazawa to Nagano test ride:


HAB News report
__________________
Sr.Horn no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 5th, 2015, 05:41 PM   #1447
Sr.Horn
té con pastas member
 
Sr.Horn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 13,462

2/4
E7/W7 train details. Outside appearance, Gran Class, Green Car and Standard Cars:



























































Source and more: http://news.mynavi.jp/news/2015/02/05/459/
__________________
Sr.Horn no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 5th, 2015, 05:42 PM   #1448
Sr.Horn
té con pastas member
 
Sr.Horn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 13,462

3/4
Kanazawa Station status (for more information, please visit #1409):

















































Source and more: http://news.mynavi.jp/news/2015/02/05/459/
__________________

loefet, Milkmaster, Svartmetall, NicSA, CP11 and 1 others liked this post
Sr.Horn no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 5th, 2015, 05:42 PM   #1449
Sr.Horn
té con pastas member
 
Sr.Horn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 13,462

4/4
Hokuriku Shinkansen trackside scenery between Kanazawa and Nagano:


Leaving Kanazawa










Tateyama mountains








Here: http://goo.gl/maps/85083




















Jōetsu-Myōkō station




Passing Nakano http://goo.gl/maps/u8iCQ


Arriving at Nagano Station



Source and more: http://news.mynavi.jp/news/2015/02/05/459/


Maybe the best landscape on Shinkansen Lines.


__________________
Sr.Horn no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 7th, 2015, 10:13 AM   #1450
bluemeansgo
Registered User
 
bluemeansgo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 451
Likes (Received): 124

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
With a visitors rail pass it might well be the most affordable system provided at least 2-3 trips are taken, however if you compare prices for those living there then you also need to compare discounted prices available for everyone. Munich-Frankfurt could easily be obtained for 50 euros one way, sometimes less and there are no discounts for Nozomi, right?
That's the major difference. Pricing models. Shinkansen does occasionally have special passes available, but generally you're correct, it's a fixed price.

Compare the TGV:

A ticket to Marseille ranges 45.00 € – 162.00 € (~6,000¥ – 21,000¥) € for a 3h 15m journey of approximately 700km. http://en.voyages-sncf.com/

An equivalent might be Tokyo – Aomori ( 3h 18m ) for the price of ¥10,150 (~80 € ).

For that price, you can take ANY train you want, at any time of the day and there is no additional fee. If you miss your train or decide to take a later train... not a problem. If you want a refund, not a problem after a small admin fee.

With the TGV, you're restricted to only idTGV at the low end. You can't just change tickets or trains or schedules. Non-refundable. It would also appear that there's a 12€ fee for buying tickets.

Essentially, they run the TGV like an airline with last-minute travellers and business people subsidizing the cheap tickets that attract the bargain hunters and vacation planners. Shinkansen is run more like a taxi service or public transit. Fixed, predictable pricing, without subsidies (apart from the Japan Rail passes)

In the end, the TGV for most people ends up averaging the same or more for many and because of the pricing model, without the flexibility of the Shinkansen.

Japan has simply priced their tickets by distance and stuck to it. People think it's expensive because the tickets don't often have sales. However, like MANY things in Japan, the bang-for-buck of the quality of service and flexibility is MUCH cheaper than other systems.

I equate it to how people look at Macs and compare them to entry-level Dells instead of an equally spec'd system. It doesn't matter whether you're a PC person or a Mac person, you have to compare apples to apples and when you do, prices are roughly the same.

Similarly, Japan doesn't generally offer crap, and due to economies of scale you get the benefit of premium for lower cost.
__________________

loefet, Svartmetall, Swede liked this post

Last edited by bluemeansgo; February 7th, 2015 at 10:18 AM.
bluemeansgo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 7th, 2015, 10:48 AM   #1451
castermaild55
Registered User
 
castermaild55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,213
Likes (Received): 3058

I think many Japanese buy those ones
http://www.japanican.com/en/special/...sen/index.aspx

I buy ticket of Shinkansen at Discount ticket shop ( outlet ticket shop)
http://www.access-ticket.com/shinkansen/
castermaild55 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 7th, 2015, 11:34 AM   #1452
Sunfuns
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,426
Likes (Received): 361

Well, quite obviously Japanese pricing system works and quality is high. You are probably right about average prices although to know for sure we would need to know a proportion of full price (flexible by the way) and discount tickets on major European systems.

I personally prefer the current "airline model" here because I only travel for pleasure and I'm able to plan well in advance.

By the way what's the cheapest mode of transport for medium distance travel in Japan. Is it a bus? As in every country in Japan too there are people for whom price is more important than speed...
Sunfuns no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 7th, 2015, 01:24 PM   #1453
Svartmetall
Ordo Ab Chao
 
Svartmetall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Past: Northampton, UK (19 years), Auckland NZ (7 years), Now: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 14,072
Likes (Received): 8792

I hate the airline model for trains. I often have to work weekends and cannot plan ahead in advance. If I get a free weekend I like to be able to travel. Due to yield management used by railways, walk up tickets are prohibitively expensive in Europe now and not worth the money. Therefore, I don't travel as I don't want to waste money.
Svartmetall está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old February 7th, 2015, 01:33 PM   #1454
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,199
Likes (Received): 766

The obligation by the EU to allow competition airline-style will worse things, forcing introduction of yield management even where it doesn't exist (or is very limited) like Germany and Austria making there rail travel harder.

(this doesn't mean that where there is no competition there is no yield management, France is the best example - there there has not been competition even from buses, until recently, but there has always been yield management on TGVs)
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia

Svartmetall liked this post
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 7th, 2015, 01:56 PM   #1455
Svartmetall
Ordo Ab Chao
 
Svartmetall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Past: Northampton, UK (19 years), Auckland NZ (7 years), Now: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 14,072
Likes (Received): 8792

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
The obligation by the EU to allow competition airline-style will worse things, forcing introduction of yield management even where it doesn't exist (or is very limited) like Germany and Austria making there rail travel harder.

(this doesn't mean that where there is no competition there is no yield management, France is the best example - there there has not been competition even from buses, until recently, but there has always been yield management on TGVs)
So it's now an EU requirement to have this nonsense? Hate. Seriously hate. Japan, don't change on this. I would rather have a situation whereby I don't get "special deals", but I have a known amount that it will cost at all times.
Svartmetall está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old February 7th, 2015, 01:56 PM   #1456
Sunfuns
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,426
Likes (Received): 361

You have as many opinions as there are people around…

In Switzerland prices are also constant and high. What helps us is discount cards and subsidised travel in the local area.

I think yield management system is appropriate for long distance travel (Paris-Marseille, for example) where trains are competing with airlines. It allows both train companies to be more profitable and for us to find cheap tickets. I'm not in favour for shorter routes where people need to travel regularly.
Sunfuns no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 7th, 2015, 02:02 PM   #1457
Svartmetall
Ordo Ab Chao
 
Svartmetall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Past: Northampton, UK (19 years), Auckland NZ (7 years), Now: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 14,072
Likes (Received): 8792

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
You have as many opinions as there are people around…

In Switzerland prices are also constant and high. What helps us is discount cards and subsidised travel in the local area.

I think yield management system is appropriate for long distance travel (Paris-Marseille, for example) where trains are competing with airlines. It allows both train companies to be more profitable and for us to find cheap tickets. I'm not in favour for shorter routes where people need to travel regularly.
Really? Why when you have one of the busiest railway systems in the world that makes a very good and consistent profit, provides an amazingly high standard of service and captures FAR more of the modal share than railways do in nearly all other countries would you change the system?

Yield management is only good if you want to annoy people and if people plan in advance to travel. Not everyone does. People like to travel on a whim, or, like in my case, if they have a difficult job that requires weekend work they like to have flexibility. Yield management removes flexibility completely by pricing people out of unplanned travel. It's stupid for railways.
Svartmetall está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old February 7th, 2015, 02:11 PM   #1458
Sunfuns
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,426
Likes (Received): 361

Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
Really? Why when you have one of the busiest railway systems in the world that makes a very good and consistent profit, provides an amazingly high standard of service and captures FAR more of the modal share than railways do in nearly all other countries would you change the system?
You misunderstood - I'm not suggesting at all that Japanese should change their system. No need to fix something that isn't broken. I'm only saying that it's more appropriate for HSR in Europe. Population density and competitive environment is different here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
Yield management is only good if you want to annoy people and if people plan in advance to travel. Not everyone does. People like to travel on a whim, or, like in my case, if they have a difficult job that requires weekend work they like to have flexibility. Yield management removes flexibility completely by pricing people out of unplanned travel. It's stupid for railways.
I understand you, but you are in minority in terms of working arrangements. I don't think it's stupid for railways at all. Just look at Spanish HSR for example. After introducing the system there was a large increase in both passenger numbers as well as revenues and profits. It's not out of stupidity that airlines use this model in their ultra competitive environment.
Sunfuns no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 7th, 2015, 02:22 PM   #1459
Svartmetall
Ordo Ab Chao
 
Svartmetall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Past: Northampton, UK (19 years), Auckland NZ (7 years), Now: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 14,072
Likes (Received): 8792

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
You misunderstood - I'm not suggesting at all that Japanese should change their system. No need to fix something that isn't broken. I'm only saying that it's more appropriate for HSR in Europe. Population density and competitive environment is different here.
Is the density really that different? We have multiple areas in Europe that match the density of Japan - and England and the Netherlands is above the density of Japan in a good number of areas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
I understand you, but you are in minority in terms of working arrangements. I don't think it's stupid for railways at all. Just look at Spanish HSR for example. After introducing the system there was a large increase in both passenger numbers as well as revenues and profits. It's not out of stupidity that airlines use this model in their ultra competitive environment.
Are you saying you never take unplanned trips? You never want the freedom to hop in a car and go somewhere one weekend? Why can you not do that in a train, too?

Also, airlines are completely different. In most EU countries you have an incumbent rail operator that has little to no competition on particular routes meaning you have to choose a different mode to take the same journey. For air travel there are multiple operators flying the same route (unless it's an unpopular route). Not the same at all.
Svartmetall está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old February 7th, 2015, 02:39 PM   #1460
Sunfuns
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,426
Likes (Received): 361

Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
Are you saying you never take unplanned trips? You never want the freedom to hop in a car and go somewhere one weekend? Why can you not do that in a train, too?
Of course I do, but they tend to be day trips. Longer trips where hotels or staying with someone are involved I'm able to plan at least a week in advance…

Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
Also, airlines are completely different. In most EU countries you have an incumbent rail operator that has little to no competition on particular routes meaning you have to choose a different mode to take the same journey. For air travel there are multiple operators flying the same route (unless it's an unpopular route). Not the same at all.
Indeed and for a long distance travel people do that. If TGV prices to Paris become too high I can always fly instead and be there in roughly the same time.

Long time ago (before my time) airline tickets also had a hard price. The result was that they were very expensive (recalculated to today's money). Liberalisation of that market has been a boon for consumers. Just a few days ago I bought tickets from Zurich to Hanoi for just 700 franks and it might have been even less if our dates were less specific. It would have cost double or even triple as recently as 20 years ago.
Sunfuns no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 10:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium