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Old March 16th, 2015, 08:07 PM   #1541
bluemeansgo
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Originally Posted by 00Zy99 View Post
What about the rest of the Tokaido Shinkansen? Why won't it also be accelerated?

Part of the reason is the 2500m curve radius preventing further increases without a new train design. The n700 was able to do this by tilting the train 1°.

However his year the trains will be increased to 285km/h along the Line.
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Old March 16th, 2015, 09:53 PM   #1542
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Part of the reason is the 2500m curve radius preventing further increases without a new train design. The n700 was able to do this by tilting the train 1°.
Correct. However, the shallow track curvature between Shizuoka and Toyohashi Stations and essentially the near-straight line run between Maibara and Kyoto Stations could make it possible for the N700/N700A trainset to reach 300 km/h. The much shallower line curvature and emphasis on higher-speed running on the San'yō line makes it possible to push the speed up to 320 km/h there once the line is run exclusively by N700/N700A/N700-8000 trainsets.
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Old March 17th, 2015, 02:57 PM   #1543
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I'd seen the number 25% before as a safety in Japan.
...
It is not just for safety though. A big part is scheduling. Trains aren't late. They just aren't allowed to be. In order to achieve that a train has to be able to make up lost time. So they run trains intentionally slower.
That can't be it either, because that would mean a late train would have to exceed local speed limits to regain lost time. As far as I know the speed limit is really the limit.
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Old March 17th, 2015, 04:59 PM   #1544
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That can't be it either, because that would mean a late train would have to exceed local speed limits to regain lost time. As far as I know the speed limit is really the limit.
The trains can reach that speed on a straight line but usually the tracks wouldn't allow it. Remember top speed of a train is only part of the equation.
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Old March 17th, 2015, 10:47 PM   #1545
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What do you mean exactly?
I meant: The track speed limit is the absolute speed limit a train may never exceed on a given section of track, even if your train is capable of running faster. In order to keep to the schedule, which is customised for the speed profile of the particular train type, even when not running late, trains already have to drive very close to the track speed limit. Thus because it's nearly impossible to drive faster then you're already doing it's also nearly impossible to make up a delay greater then say a minute or so.
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Old March 18th, 2015, 02:06 AM   #1546
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Yes. The safety margins of 25% were, if I remember correctly, not based on track speed limits. Rather, they were based on theoretical speed limits of the train set. So if a train's design speed is 300, all components should be rated at 80% its theoretical safe maximum (375 - or 25% faster).

Japan's numbers are considered quite conservative and you can evidence of this in its export trainsets. The Chinese imported the e2-1000 250kph and with light modifications (extra traction motors) run them at 300kph and with structural mods at 350kph. They are run at 275kph in Japan.

Interestingly, the n700i is being promoted for the USA as having an operational top speed of 330km/h. Designed to run at 300km/h it wouldn't surprise me if that train couldn't easily and safely travel at 375km/h given the right tracks.

330km/h represents the normal safety margins that many countries would operate at. Between Maibara and Kyoto they have run the n700 at 330km/h in late night trials.
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Old March 18th, 2015, 03:10 AM   #1547
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TV program about shinkansen was aired last week
it is about the comparison of Spain, France and Italian high speed rail

and How shinkansen is operated ..
sorry no subb




it operates the Shinkansen is every 3 minutes comparing to like TGV 15~20 minutes
between Tokyo and hakata, it operates 80 shinkansen on rail
330 trains in an average day, max 430 in a day on tokaido shinkansen

Last edited by castermaild55; March 18th, 2015 at 03:52 AM.
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Old March 18th, 2015, 03:00 PM   #1548
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First of all I would like to stress that I truly think Japan did a real good job and can claim the title for best high speed rail in world. However the metrics you state do not make for a fair comparison between shinkansen and European high speed. There are too many major differences.

In Europe there are Intercity trains at about 200 km/h. In Japan there is no intermediate train class between the fastest conventional trains (limited expresses @ 130 km/h) and shinkansen. You could argue that the slowest shinkansens (e.g. Kodama on the Tokaido) take over that Intercity role.

In Japan every shinkansen line usually has 3 train types (local, semi express and express), whereas in Europe there usually is only one. Yes, for instance north of Paris the TGV, Thalys and Eurostar share the track, but they are three separate operators, whereas in Japan trains are operated by JR Central staff on the Tokaido and JR West staff on the Sanyo, regardless of the train's owner.

Shinkansen is completely separated from the conventional network, whereas in Europe they are integrated: High speed trains operate on conventional lines and vice versa.

Shinkansen shows how efficient a rail network can be operated if you want to. Apart from cultural differences, in Europe the incentive to operate anywhere near as efficient just doesn't seem to be there.
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Old March 18th, 2015, 03:36 PM   #1549
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First of all I would like to stress that I truly think Japan did a real good job and can claim the title for best high speed rail in world. However the metrics you state do not make for a fair comparison between shinkansen and European high speed. There are too many major differences.

In Europe there are Intercity trains at about 200 km/h. In Japan there is no intermediate train class between the fastest conventional trains (limited expresses @ 130 km/h) and shinkansen. You could argue that the slowest shinkansens (e.g. Kodama on the Tokaido) take over that Intercity role.

In Japan every shinkansen line usually has 3 train types (local, semi express and express), whereas in Europe there usually is only one. Yes, for instance north of Paris the TGV, Thalys and Eurostar share the track, but they are three separate operators, whereas in Japan trains are operated by JR Central staff on the Tokaido and JR West staff on the Sanyo, regardless of the train's owner.

Shinkansen is completely separated from the conventional network, whereas in Europe they are integrated: High speed trains operate on conventional lines and vice versa.

Shinkansen shows how efficient a rail network can be operated if you want to. Apart from cultural differences, in Europe the incentive to operate anywhere near as efficient just doesn't seem to be there.
????

May I be the first to voice my thoughts, what in the world are you trying to say?
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Old March 18th, 2015, 03:45 PM   #1550
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That it's not exactly easy nor fair to compare the two countries as simply as in that video.

Japanese media loves to run pieces along the lines of "We Japanese do it like X, however, they foreigners do it like Y" while implying that the foreign bodies haven't got it quite right. Usually the solutions each country takes apply well to their own situation.
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Old March 18th, 2015, 04:47 PM   #1551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by castermaild55 View Post
TV program about shinkansen was aired last week
it is about the comparison of Spain, France and Italian high speed rail

and How shinkansen is operated ..
sorry no subb

it operates the Shinkansen is every 3 minutes comparing to like TGV 15~20 minutes
between Tokyo and hakata, it operates 80 shinkansen on rail
330 trains in an average day, max 430 in a day on tokaido shinkansen
The video is down (thanks Youtube and Asahi TV ¬¬) but it is possible to be watched here:

Part 1: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B27...BmQ19SOGs/view
Part 2: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B27...JmdzVWSWM/view

Thanks to dabsan @ JNS forum
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Old March 19th, 2015, 09:38 AM   #1552
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Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
????

May I be the first to voice my thoughts, what in the world are you trying to say?
2 things:
  1. Due to many fundamental differences you can't compare European high speed rail to Shinkansen
  2. I think Shinkansen is really great
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Old March 19th, 2015, 01:52 PM   #1553
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sr.Horn View Post
The video is down (thanks Youtube and Asahi TV ¬¬) but it is possible to be watched here:

Part 1: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B27...BmQ19SOGs/view
Part 2: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B27...JmdzVWSWM/view

Thanks to dabsan @ JNS forum
This is just horrible to look at.... Let's make an arcade game of a TV show.
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Old March 20th, 2015, 02:11 AM   #1554
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I think both learn from each other.

The Akita and Yamagata experience was clearly based on the Japanese realising they couldn't build a new and fast Shinkansen line to every small provincial city, and with the gauge being different there was no simple opportunity to do what they did in Europe with mixed high speed and medium speed running, so instead gauge converted instead so they could.

But the UK has gone the other way, and has realised that if they are really going to make high speed rail work, they will have to build the dedicated lines like HS2, as they did with HS1, because the existing rail network just wasn't able to support it enough.

I see it as a pendulum, with European operators trying to build as much of a new network as they can afford, but then trying to spread the benefits of the new lines to others who will never have them. The Japanese are coming at the same problem from the opposite direction.

The frequency issue is not really important - the French or Italians would run a train every five minutes if the demand was there. Sections of Shinkansen like the new line to Hokkaido will have far fewer trains than the existing Tokaido or Tohoku busy sections.
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Old March 20th, 2015, 03:48 AM   #1555
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The frequency issue is not really important - the French or Italians would run a train every five minutes if the demand was there. Sections of Shinkansen like the new line to Hokkaido will have far fewer trains than the existing Tokaido or Tohoku busy sections.
I doubt that the French could do it even if they want it with the TGV's slow acceleration speed.
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Old March 20th, 2015, 06:04 AM   #1556
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maarten Otto View Post
This is just horrible to look at.... Let's make an arcade game of a TV show.

Much better than making a reality show or a talent show out of a TV show, imo.
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Old March 20th, 2015, 09:37 AM   #1557
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What is horrible about it. Very standard Japanese TV show. Iron chef for trains
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Old March 20th, 2015, 09:53 AM   #1558
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I doubt that the French could do it even if they want it with the TGV's slow acceleration speed.
What leads you to believe that the TGV accelerates slow? On 25 kV AC power the power to weight ratio of the newer models is nearly the same as an N700. It's mainly track layout and different operating procedures causing TGV not to be able to leave stations at full throttle.
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Old March 20th, 2015, 12:47 PM   #1559
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What leads you to believe that the TGV accelerates slow? On 25 kV AC power the power to weight ratio of the newer models is nearly the same as an N700. It's mainly track layout and different operating procedures causing TGV not to be able to leave stations at full throttle.
That might be true. But the main problem for the TGV is the usage of power cars, where eight axles should deliver all that 9+ MW power, where as an 8-car N700 Shinkansen have the it's power spread out on all 32 axles.
It's a matter of adhesion, and a Shinkansen train just have more of it.
What I mean is, that you have to accelerate much more gentler with a TGV, or else they will break traction, on a Shinkansen train you can go at it harder since there are more wheels that tries to move the mass of the train compared to the TGV.
There is no other high speed train that accelerates as a N700 train, up to 270 km/h it can even keep up with a Transrapid Maglev train, which really says something
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Old March 20th, 2015, 02:10 PM   #1560
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I doubt that the French could do it even if they want it with the TGV's slow acceleration speed.
Your laws of physics are flawed and here is why:

If all trains accelerate and decelerate the same way, capacity is not effected.

Site note: They do run in 3 to 4 minute intervals on some parts of the LGV lines in certain situations.
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