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Old March 21st, 2015, 11:13 PM   #1581
bluemeansgo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
Because TGV has no dedicated tracks on station yards it has to adhere to the local speed limits there, which is just 30 km/h in a lot of cases. Then they use conventional tracks to get to the nearest LGV. In case of Gare du Nord to LGV Nord that's takes about 10 to 15 minutes, again at the local track speed limit.
Shinkansen was designed for trains to be able to speed of at max power. Only exception is Tokyo where there wasn't enough space. Both JR Central and JR East have speeds in the 110 km/h range while inside the Tokyo urban area.

As for procedures: A shinkansen stops exactly where marked and all doors open automatically so all people can prepare themselves at the exact spot they need to be. In case of TGV there is a 10 to 15 meter tolerance and travelers have to open the doors themselves. It's these small things that cause dwelling times to almost double.



TGV still uses fixed block TVM-430, but is eventually going to switch to ETCS L2 or L3. DS-ATC and ATC-NS still use fixed blocks as far as I know, but those blocks are so short that it effectively makes no difference.

That makes sense. Similar systems are in place in London. It's the disadvantage of having the same gauge. In this way, Japan's disadvantage of having narrow gauge map lines forced it to have a separate system for high speed.

However does this apply at intermediate stations? I can totally understand that in Europe they chose to use existing infrastructure and rail rows but are dwell times and acceleration similarly affected at stops along the way?
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Old March 22nd, 2015, 12:14 AM   #1582
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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Then what feature of Tokaido Shinkansen makes the time cost of a stop so big, if not acceleration of the trains?

It's all about priority. A kodama shalt never impede a Hikari or Nozomi. Kodama are basically shinkansen shuttle trains. As was mentioned they more or less shuttle passengers to the nearest major station.

Kodama frequently wait at stations.

It's like the autobahn fast lane. Faster trains get priority. This obviously makes it impossible to determine performance of the system based on the kodama timetable.
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Old March 22nd, 2015, 12:25 AM   #1583
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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
But what does a stop take where no trains pass?

I've never times it to the second but from my experience trains stop for only about 60 seconds. If your stop is coming up you're generally up with your luggage at the door waiting for the train to stop. They announce the stop well in advance. For example, for Hakata station they announced the stop before going under the tunnel to get into Kyushu. For Osaka they pretty much announce the stop right after leaving Kobe.

It is pretty impressive but only works if all the systems users buy into it. I can't remember how long the dwell time was in Calais between London and Paris but I remember having lots of time to alight.
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Old March 22nd, 2015, 11:02 AM   #1584
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
But what does a stop take where no trains pass?
I would bet on about 60 seconds or so, the usual stopping time at small stations.
But then again, it's not the stopping time that is the part that takes the most time. You have to take into account: deceleration, moving into the station (if there are some points to negotiate), stopping time, (waiting for trains to pass), exiting the station and then finally start to accelerate again, to find out the total time "penalty" of a stop.
Also Kodamas are usually run by 700 series trains, which aren't as fast acceleration trains as the N700 (about 20% slower acceleration).
But in about 4 years, then the last 700 series train will be removed from the Tokaido Shinkansen, so then it will get a bit better.
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Old March 22nd, 2015, 11:17 AM   #1585
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Originally Posted by loefet View Post
I would bet on about 60 seconds or so, the usual stopping time at small stations.
But then again, it's not the stopping time that is the part that takes the most time. You have to take into account: deceleration, moving into the station (if there are some points to negotiate), stopping time, (waiting for trains to pass), exiting the station and then finally start to accelerate again, to find out the total time "penalty" of a stop.
Precisely. Dwell time plus the deceleration/acceleration time. Making the total time difference between a train that skips the stop and a train that makes the stop.

Taiwan Shinkansen (and they use 700 series Shinkansen trains, too) manages to make 4 extra stops with total time difference between express and all-stop train at 24 minutes. So 6 minute time penalty of a stop. Whereas the Tokaido Shinkansen Kodama for some reason suffers a penalty of over 8 minutes per stop.
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Old March 22nd, 2015, 02:38 PM   #1586
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Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
It's the disadvantage of having the same gauge.

However does this apply at intermediate stations? I can totally understand that in Europe they chose to use existing infrastructure and rail rows but are dwell times and acceleration similarly affected at stops along the way?
Gauge has nothing to do with it, just better system separation. Contrary to France what you see in Germany is that on many intermediate station they tried to optimise the track layout by limiting the number of switches and using those switches only in the straight position. So instead of 40 km/h they can enter and exit at much higher speeds. Example: a light engine passed Kassel Wilhelmhöhe at 100 km/h (this video at 15:27), so an ICE train could enter the station as fast as the braking profile allows.

There are a few station in Europe that are along high speed lines (like Montabaur, Noorderkempen and Champagne-Ardenne TGV), where the difference between a Japanese and a European HST would probably not be very big either, but still in favour of Japan with it's tighter procedures.
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Old March 22nd, 2015, 03:16 PM   #1587
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Precisely. Dwell time plus the deceleration/acceleration time. Making the total time difference between a train that skips the stop and a train that makes the stop.

Taiwan Shinkansen (and they use 700 series Shinkansen trains, too) manages to make 4 extra stops with total time difference between express and all-stop train at 24 minutes. So 6 minute time penalty of a stop. Whereas the Tokaido Shinkansen Kodama for some reason suffers a penalty of over 8 minutes per stop.
You are still missing the point, a THSR all stop train is on average passed by one skip stop train, where as a Kodama is passed by 9 trains on average between Tokyo and Osaka. And in the case of the Kodama, then during some of the stops it will let pass up to two trains, making the dwell time even more.
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Old March 22nd, 2015, 06:18 PM   #1588
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Precisely. Dwell time plus the deceleration/acceleration time. Making the total time difference between a train that skips the stop and a train that makes the stop.

Taiwan Shinkansen (and they use 700 series Shinkansen trains, too) manages to make 4 extra stops with total time difference between express and all-stop train at 24 minutes. So 6 minute time penalty of a stop. Whereas the Tokaido Shinkansen Kodama for some reason suffers a penalty of over 8 minutes per stop.
The model used by Taiwan, "700T" is only partially related to the 700 series from which it originated. Aside from tweaks to air conditioning and nose aerodynamics, the 700T also utilizes the bogie specifications from the 500 series, which allows higher operating speeds (but also seems to have reduced acceleration). Indeed, the 700T reached a top speed of 315km/h during test runs.
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Old March 22nd, 2015, 06:32 PM   #1589
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loefet View Post
You are still missing the point, a THSR all stop train is on average passed by one skip stop train, where as a Kodama is passed by 9 trains on average between Tokyo and Osaka. And in the case of the Kodama, then during some of the stops it will let pass up to two trains, making the dwell time even more.

I'm pretty sure he's intentionally missing the points. Lol.

This image really gets to the crux of how much priority the Kodama gets on the schedule.

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Old March 22nd, 2015, 06:40 PM   #1590
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I think in the end, both JR Central and JR West wants to eventually get all the 500 and 700 Series trainsets off the Tokaidō and San'yō lines by 2017 at latest. That way, all the trains will be N700, N700-8000 and N700A trainsets, which will have similar reasonably fast acceleration from stop and top speeds of 300 km/h or higher. And it will allow the Tokaidō line to run 300 km/h operation on parts of the line (e.g., Kyoto east to Maibara and Toyohashi east to Shizuoka). And it may allow a slight bump up in top speed on the San'yō line from 300 to 310 km/h.
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Old March 22nd, 2015, 09:26 PM   #1591
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I think in the end, both JR Central and JR West wants to eventually get all the 500 and 700 Series trainsets off the Tokaidō and San'yō lines by 2017 at latest. That way, all the trains will be N700, N700-8000 and N700A trainsets, which will have similar reasonably fast acceleration from stop and top speeds of 300 km/h or higher. And it will allow the Tokaidō line to run 300 km/h operation on parts of the line (e.g., Kyoto east to Maibara and Toyohashi east to Shizuoka). And it may allow a slight bump up in top speed on the San'yō line from 300 to 310 km/h.
The 500 Series is have been "banned" from the Tokaido Shinkansen since 2010 (they are now only running Kodama services on the Sanyo Shinkansen). And according to the Tokaido Shinkansen wiki page then it seems like the 700 series will be gone by 2019, so we have to wait until then until we will see the next improvements in service on the Tokaido Shinkansen.
The Sanyo line isn't as heavily trafficked, the Tokaido Shinkansen have a maximum theoretical capacity of 14 trains per hour, where as the Sanyo Shinkansen "only" have 9.5 trains per hour, which makes it easier to increase the speed even if they still have some older slow accelerating train sets, since there is much more space to fit them in.
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Old March 22nd, 2015, 10:10 PM   #1592
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Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
This image really gets to the crux of how much priority the Kodama gets on the schedule.

Now, let´s analyze it.
Travel time Kyoto-Nagoya for expresses (all Nozomis save one Hikari):
  1. 200 6:14 6:49 0:35
  2. 202 6:17 6:52 0:35
  3. 204 6:27 7:04 0:37
  4. 290 6:35 7:12 0:37
  5. 100 6:38 7:15 0:37
  6. 102 6:48 7:24 0:36
  7. 292 7:02 7:40 0:38
  8. 104 7:06 7:42 0:36
  9. 208 7:18 7:54 0:36
  10. 106 7:26 8:03 0:37
  11. 108 7:45 8:22 0:37
  12. 212 7:53 8:32 0:39
  13. 110 8:05 8:42 0:37
  14. 214 8:18 8:54 0:36
  15. 112 8:26 9:03 0:37
  16. 114 8:45 9:22 0:37
  17. 2 8:53 9:32 0:39
  18. Hikari 460 8:56 9:34 0:38
Note: the expresses travel different travel time with the same stops! 0:35 to 0:38.

Now compare the non-expresses (all Hikaris save one Kodama). For some reason, all have the same stops, both Maibara and Gifu-Hashima - none of the 7 has just one of these two. Excluding the last, because this section of schedule does not show what expresses pass it.
Some are passed by 1 train, some by 2 and one even by 3.
  1. 504 6:23 7:18 0:55 204 290 100
  2. 506 6:42 7:34 0:52 102
  3. 508 7:32 8:27 0:55 108
  4. 510 7:42 8:34 0:52 108 212
  5. Kodama 638 7:59 8:56 0:57 110 214
  6. 512 8:33 9:27 0:54 114
Note: no clear correlation between number of passing trains and travel time. Conspicuous contrast between 508 and 510 - 510 is passed by 1 more Nozomi, yet travels 3 minutes faster!
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Old March 23rd, 2015, 01:28 AM   #1593
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Originally Posted by loefet View Post
The 500 Series is have been "banned" from the Tokaido Shinkansen since 2010 (they are now only running Kodama services on the Sanyo Shinkansen). And according to the Tokaido Shinkansen wiki page then it seems like the 700 series will be gone by 2019, so we have to wait until then until we will see the next improvements in service on the Tokaido Shinkansen.
The Sanyo line isn't as heavily trafficked, the Tokaido Shinkansen have a maximum theoretical capacity of 14 trains per hour, where as the Sanyo Shinkansen "only" have 9.5 trains per hour, which makes it easier to increase the speed even if they still have some older slow accelerating train sets, since there is much more space to fit them in.
There are two issues with the 500 and 700 Series Shinkansen: relatively slow acceleration (compared to the N700, N700-8000 and N700A) and the lack of a "tilting" feature to tilt the trainset around 2 degrees to take the tighter curvature of the Tokaidō line from Tokyo to Mishima Stations. (It should be noted that the N700-8000 trainsets--which lack the tilt feature--run on the Kyushu line at a maximum speed of 260 km/h but can achieve 300 km/h on the San'yō line, mostly because of the low track curvature between Hakata and Shin-Osaka Stations). JR Central still runs the 700 Series on Hikari and Kodama services, and JR West runs the 500 and 700 Series on Kodama services; I do think the goal from Tokyo to Hakata is N700 (all trainsets upgraded to near N700A standard), N700-8000 and N700A trainsets only so all trains have the same acceleration and (more or less) the same top speed, which will allow faster operations on both the Tokaidō and San'yō lines.
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Old March 23rd, 2015, 10:10 AM   #1594
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In order to optimise capacity the Tokaido shinkansen is limited to 16 car train sets only, hence the 500, the 700 'Hikari Rail Star' and the N700-8000 sets can't run there.
The reason Kodamas and Hikari only run 285 km/h on the Sanyo is probably station density. What's the use of a 300 km/h train when there is not sufficient distance to run at that speed for more then a few minutes? Reducing the maximum speed also reduces wear, which is probably a good thing considering the 500 and 700 are the oldest trains in the fleet.
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Old March 23rd, 2015, 08:14 PM   #1595
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
...
Note: no clear correlation between number of passing trains and travel time. Conspicuous contrast between 508 and 510 - 510 is passed by 1 more Nozomi, yet travels 3 minutes faster!
Well you have to go deeper than that really, really have to watch the spacing between the trains in more detail, since there isn't a strict 3 minutes between each train when they start, in some cases it may be up to 14 minutes between them. And I'm pretty sure that if there is a chance that any Hikari or Kodama could disrupt the speed of a Nozomi, then it will be forced to wait until the Nozomi have passed, which could mean that you don't have that strict 6 minutes of waiting time to fit them in, some times it's more. All because Nozomi trains are the ones that have the highest priority.

But as I said before, the price difference between them is so low that no-one would use a Hikari or Kodama to go between Tokyo and Osaka, they are only there to give some service to the "smaller" towns (compared to the big metropolises that is) along the route, and as a trade off then they will be forced to wait for the gap in the planning so that they don't disrupt the more "important" services between the big metropolises.

I mean, if they would really focus on giving the best possible services between Tokyo, Yokohama, Nagoya, Kyoto and Osaka, then all the smaller stations in between would all be cut, since doing so would dramatically increase the number of trains possible between Tokyo and Osaka.
The travel times on the Hikari and Kodama, is just a trade off between all this.
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Old March 23rd, 2015, 10:50 PM   #1596
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For comparison:
Taiwan Shinkansen:
339,3 km Taibei Station to Zuoying Station
For expresses, 2 intermediate stations: Banqiao, 7,2 km from Taibei, and Taichung, 159,8 km from Taibei
Tokaido Shinkansen:
342,0 km Tokyo Station to Nagoya Station
For expresses, 2 intermediate stations: Shinagawa, 6,8 km from Tokyo, and Shin-Yokohama, 25,5 km from Tokyo
Shizuoka is a prefectural capital, and conveniently 167,4 km from Tokyo - but for some reason Nozomis do not stop at Shizuoka.

Scheduled travel time for expresses:
Taiwan Shinkansen Taibei-Zuoying - 1:36 without exceptions.
Tokaido Shinkansen Tokyo-Nagoya:
  1. 1 6:00 7:35 1:35
  2. 3 6:16 7:54 1:38
  3. 5 6:30 8:12 1:42
  4. 201 6:43 8:25 1:42
  5. 7 6:50 8:35 1:45
  6. 203 7:00 8:42 1:42
  7. 9 7:10 8:51 1:41
  8. 205 7:20 9:03 1:43
  9. 11 7:30 9:14 1:44
  10. 101 7:40 9:23 1:43
  11. 13 7:50 9:33 1:43
  12. 207 8:00 9:42 1:42
Time is similar... but unlike Taiwan Shinkansen, the travel times are for some reason widely scattered.
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Old March 24th, 2015, 01:40 AM   #1597
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If the times have been taken from a recent timetable, then you also have to take into account that some Nozomi runs have a higher top speed than the rest of them. Since the 14th some trains are allowed to run at 285 km/h instead of 270 km/h.
But then again, I don't think that 4 minutes difference over 342 km is that much to discuss really.
Also none of these figures shows that the THSR trains accelerate faster than the N700 as was the start of this discussion.
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Old March 24th, 2015, 04:30 AM   #1598
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And I'm pretty sure that if there is a chance that any Hikari or Kodama could disrupt the speed of a Nozomi, then it will be forced to wait until the Nozomi have passed
Yes. 100% true.

Quote:
But as I said before, the price difference between them is so low that no-one would use a Hikari or Kodama to go between Tokyo and Osaka, they are only there to give some service to the "smaller" towns
I am surprised there is any difference I price. That's the first I had heard of that. I always thought all services are the same price.

Quote:
I mean, if they would really focus on giving the best possible services between Tokyo, Yokohama, Nagoya, Kyoto and Osaka, then all the smaller stations in between would all be cut, since doing so would dramatically increase the number of trains possible between Tokyo and Osaka.
if the Tokaido were built today it WOULD dispense with many of the intermediate stations, perhaps keeping only Shizuoka (maybe Odawara and Hamamatsu) between Yokohama and Nagoya. Shinkansen stations are essentially like airports competing with short haul flights.

However when the train started operation in 1964 it was aiming for 200km/h and competed with long haul and overnight trains. It also was replacing an existing Tokaido main line.


Quote:
The travel times on the Hikari and Kodama, is just a trade off between all this.
Exactly. Part of the evidence of this is that there are almost kodama or Hikari that go past the osaka area east or west. They are simply not a long haul service. Of course part of this is JR West vs JR Central but if there was demand, for example, for a kodama jaunt between Maibara and Okayama, they'd broker an arrangement. There are Nozomi and Mizuho (Osaka – Kagoshima) long haul services though.
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Old March 24th, 2015, 06:47 AM   #1599
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JAPAN | High Speed Rail

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
For comparison:

Taiwan Shinkansen:

339,3 km Taibei Station to Zuoying Station

For expresses, 2 intermediate stations: Banqiao, 7,2 km from Taibei, and Taichung, 159,8 km from Taibei

Tokaido Shinkansen:

342,0 km Tokyo Station to Nagoya Station

For expresses, 2 intermediate stations: Shinagawa, 6,8 km from Tokyo, and Shin-Yokohama, 25,5 km from Tokyo

Shizuoka is a prefectural capital, and conveniently 167,4 km from Tokyo - but for some reason Nozomis do not stop at Shizuoka.



Scheduled travel time for expresses:

Taiwan Shinkansen Taibei-Zuoying - 1:36 without exceptions.

Tokaido Shinkansen Tokyo-Nagoya:
  1. 1 6:00 7:35 1:35
  2. 3 6:16 7:54 1:38
  3. 5 6:30 8:12 1:42
  4. 201 6:43 8:25 1:42
  5. 7 6:50 8:35 1:45
  6. 203 7:00 8:42 1:42
  7. 9 7:10 8:51 1:41
  8. 205 7:20 9:03 1:43
  9. 11 7:30 9:14 1:44
  10. 101 7:40 9:23 1:43
  11. 13 7:50 9:33 1:43
  12. 207 8:00 9:42 1:42

Time is similar... but unlike Taiwan Shinkansen, the travel times are for some reason widely scattered.

That is cool to have a comparison with a similar trainset. I'm not sure how often express trains are run in Taiwan.

It is interesting to analyze the timetable but given the congestion it is hard to pin down where slow downs happen.

A better indicator is jr west which has a full but not as full schedule. Check out the Sakura service between himeji and Hakata. The Sakura is an 8-car train that is roughly equivalent to Nozomi with an additional stop. It's pretty consistently 130 minutes.

As for why Nozomi doesn't stop at Shizuoka... That's why it is Nozomi. That service is meant to connect Tokyo , Nagoya, and Osaka. Or put another way... Kanto, Chubu, and Kansai.
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Old March 24th, 2015, 03:19 PM   #1600
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As for why Nozomi doesn't stop at Shizuoka... That's why it is Nozomi. That service is meant to connect Tokyo , Nagoya, and Osaka. Or put another way... Kanto, Chubu, and Kansai.
Back in the days before the 300 Series trainset arrived to start the faster Nozomi service, even the older Hikari service stopped only at Nagoya and Kyoto before arriving at Osaka. Today, Hikari service between Tokyo and Shin-Osaka usually stop (after Shin-Yokohama) at Shizuoka, Hamamatsu, Nagoya, Maibara and Kyoto.
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