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Old March 19th, 2016, 12:17 PM   #1741
Gusiluz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loefet View Post
The problem lies with the difference in gauges and track layouts. The overall difference between Iberian gauge and standard gauge is fairly small compared to cape gauge and standard gauge, the design have to differ for a difference that is almost twice as wide as in Spain. Also the difference in track layout between the two, slow twisty cape gauge rails and straight fast standard gauge stretches really requires two different bogie designs and wheel profiles to run properly, we know that they have gone through several iterations of bogie designs on the latest FGT test trains, and they haven't reached a design that fulfils the design requirements for a bogie that can run on both types of track without causing problems in maintenance due to extra wear, as well as noise, passenger comfort, etc.
I know well enough the two systems of Spanish wide exchange (CAF and Talgo); another thing that can explain in English.
Both systems are mechanical and present no problem for the difference between the different widths is somewhat larger or smaller; I agree that the problem may be the dynamic behavior in the zairaisen network.

CAF left


Talgo front



But in Japan there is another project of JR West to link Hokoriku Shinkansen services between Tsuruga and Osaka (for the current narrow gauge) by FGT variable gauge trains, developed jointly with Talgo.



From Thread Railway Gauge Discussion
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Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
In Spain there are two different systems:

RD (Rodadura Desplazable) from Talgo


and BRAVA (Bogie de Rodadura de Ancho Variable Autopropulsado) from CAF


There dual changers width suitable for both systems. Can be by folding platforms (TCRS1)


movable platforms (TCRS2)


or with moving parts (TCRS3)


Also the Unichanger project, is valid for trains of four technologies: CAF, Talgo, Rafil (Germany) and SUW 2000 (Poland). It will allows for passenger trains of mixed trains (passenger and freight). In experimentation.



From ADIF



More information (in spanish) in the Wikipedia.

Last edited by Gusiluz; March 19th, 2016 at 12:22 PM.
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Old March 19th, 2016, 03:22 PM   #1742
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I believe the extension of Hokuriku Shinkansen will adopt the FGT technology. The relief between Kanazawa and Kansai is very rugged and there isn't space for the construction of new railway lines in Kyoto in low costs. In the other hand, Kosei Line has capacity to receive Shinkansen trains without problems because the traffic of local trains and JR Freight trains isn't heavy.

It can be a opportunity for JR Tokai to build a Shinkansen station in Otsu, in Kosei Line. Otsukyo Station could be upgrade to receive Shinkansen train to Kyoto, Kanazawa, Nagano and Tokyo (via Nagano). This station has good integration with Otsu city buses and Ishiyama Sakamoto Line (a "light rail" in Otsu).

https://www.google.com.br/maps/place...ccbbd569908646
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Old March 19th, 2016, 04:41 PM   #1743
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Why should it use the flexible grade system? It diminishes capacity to share with other trains. Much better to use one of the dedicated plans they have...
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Old March 20th, 2016, 12:21 AM   #1744
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For my opinion, JR Tokai and JR Nishi-Nihon could make the project of extension of Hokuriku Shinkansen on this way:

1. A new Shinkansen track between Kanazawa and Omi-Shiotsu, reusing the Hokuriku Tunnel. A new pararel single-track tunnel between Tsuruga and Omi-Shiotsu would built for use only by JR Kamotsu freight trains;

2. All Limited Express trains on Kosei Line would cease its operations and all JR Kamotsu train would transfer to Tokaido Main Line;

3. A gauge-change equipment would be build in Omi-Shiotsu, for use by FGT Shinkansen trains;

4. Signaling in Kosei Line would be improved. I believe FGT Shinkansen trains could run in Kosei Line at 200 Km/h without problems;

5. Otsukyo Staton would be rebuilt to be a Shinkansen station.

New services could be created with FGT trains on Hokuriku Shinkansen from Kanazawa to Kyoto:


Omi (おうみ): Kyoto - Otsukyo - Kanazawa - Nagano - Tokyo/Ueno (semi-express)

Ibuki (いぶき): Nagano - Kanazawa - Otsukyo - Kyoto (local)

Shigarashi (しがらし): Toyama - Kanazawa - Maibara (local)
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Old March 20th, 2016, 12:33 AM   #1745
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The problem with this plan is that

1) you need to use the current tunnel for local passenger trains to continue (yes, they would still need to run)

2) This doesn't serve Osaka well at all-you don't want to start trying to thread new trains into the current system like that, which makes service into either Kyoto or Osaka difficult.

3) This would disrupt local services on the Kosei Line

4) JR Freight local traffic on the Kosei needs to be preserved

5) Rebuilding Otsukyo station would be a ***. Better to build a new annex.

6) Cost of Gauge-change tech.

7) Fails to serve Mihama, Obama, Maizuru, etc. This especially means Limited Express trains still running on Kosei (not to mention Commuter Rapid)

The most recent favorite plan is dead south from Obama under Mt. Tengu to Kyoto. A full Shinkansen line all the way to Kyoto.
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Old March 20th, 2016, 12:55 AM   #1746
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A new UIC-gauge Shinkansen line for Kyoto is a nice alternative too. But, I think this new line could pass Nantan and Obama cities, entering Kyoto by west.



With this, Thunderbird Limited Express would operate only between Osaka and Tsuruga, as a "Shinkansen Relay" for Shiga citizens.
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Old March 21st, 2016, 10:12 PM   #1747
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodalvesdepaula View Post
I believe the extension of Hokuriku Shinkansen will adopt the FGT technology. The relief between Kanazawa and Kansai is very rugged and there isn't space for the construction of new railway lines in Kyoto in low costs. In the other hand, Kosei Line has capacity to receive Shinkansen trains without problems because the traffic of local trains and JR Freight trains isn't heavy.

It can be a opportunity for JR Tokai to build a Shinkansen station in Otsu, in Kosei Line. Otsukyo Station could be upgrade to receive Shinkansen train to Kyoto, Kanazawa, Nagano and Tokyo (via Nagano). This station has good integration with Otsu city buses and Ishiyama Sakamoto Line (a "light rail" in Otsu).
You seem to underestimate the scale of incompatibilities between classic JR lines and Shinkansen. The different gauge is just one of many aspects in this regard. From the train controlling system and electricity supply to geometric standards such as loading gauge and platform sizes, the two networks have very little in common. Hence the segregation between them.

So even if any gauge changing technology becomes available, and that is a big if right now, there are still plenty of other parameters which don't match and which make it uneconomic to run Shinkansen trains on classic lines.
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Old March 21st, 2016, 10:49 PM   #1748
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JAPAN | High Speed Rail

In the end I feel maibara will be the route chosen. The Chuo line will free up capacity on the Tokaido after all. I wonder if they fast track the Chuo line after it starts running to Nagoya.
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Old March 22nd, 2016, 12:43 AM   #1749
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Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
In the end I feel maibara will be the route chosen. The Chuo line will free up capacity on the Tokaido after all. I wonder if they fast track the Chuo line after it starts running to Nagoya.
If you mean the Chuo Shinkansen then I have to disappoint you. While going to be phenomenal in terms of speed this new line won't be the big relief for the Tokaido Shinkansen that it could have been. With only 5 train paths per hour and fairly small vehicles (728 seats compared to 1350 of the N700 series) the Chuo Shinkansen will replace the seating capacity of just two and a half Nozomi services.
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Old March 22nd, 2016, 04:10 AM   #1750
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Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
If you mean the Chuo Shinkansen then I have to disappoint you. While going to be phenomenal in terms of speed this new line won't be the big relief for the Tokaido Shinkansen that it could have been. With only 5 train paths per hour and fairly small vehicles (728 seats compared to 1350 of the N700 series) the Chuo Shinkansen will replace the seating capacity of just two and a half Nozomi services.
728*5/0.75=4853.333333333333

1350*12/1.5/2=5400

Don't think there would be much difference. if you do the math since although there is only half the capacity the speed is twice as fast and the Nozomi service is used by people heading all the way to Osaka, it equate to about the same as shown within the rough estimation above.
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Old March 22nd, 2016, 05:12 AM   #1751
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JAPAN | High Speed Rail

Well said. The higher speeds require fewer trains.

5 trains when the line opens to Nagoya. Partly due to the fact that it is terminating at Shinagawa and only going to Nagoya.

It's not difficult to adjust those numbers based on demand. Given that the line is being privately financed at the moment they're merely being prudent.

Even a smaller 7-car train will be a huge relief on the Tokaido. Also, there has been talk of essentially getting rid of Nozomi service from Nagoya. Trains will stop at more stations, probably in part to shuffle passengers to the slightly more expensive Chuo line and partly to provide better service to smaller stations along the Tokaido. Whether they follow through with this is another thing... They may just reduce Nozomi and increase Hikari service.
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Old March 22nd, 2016, 09:34 PM   #1752
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First year of the Hokuriku Shinkansen



Quote:
Japan's newest bullet train line, now a year old, has led to a better-than-expected threefold increase in the number of rail passengers traveling between Tokyo and Hokuriku and lifted that region's tourism industry.

Monday marked the first anniversary of the Hokuriku Shinkansen, which is jointly operated by East Japan Railway and West Japan Railway. It connects Tokyo with Kanazawa, the capital of Ishikawa Prefecture, in just under two and a half hours.

"It's been a very smooth ride," JR West President Seiji Manabe said on a visit to the region Monday.

Estimates had passenger traffic doubling in the first year compared with the preceding 12 months, but when the numbers were counted, it had tripled to nearly 9 million. A similar performance is expected in the second year, Manabe predicted.

Kanazawa's Kenrokuen, one of the the country's most famous gardens, saw a 60% year-on-year rise in visitors from last April to this past February. Visitors to nine major hot spring resort areas in the region increased by roughly a fifth to 3.21 million from April to December of last year. Located on the Sea of Japan coast, the region consists of Toyama, Ishikawa and Fukui prefectures.

So far, the new train line does not seem to be having a "straw effect" -- siphoning economic activity to the capital -- on the region. The office vacancy rate in Kanazawa is expected to fall into the single digits in 2016 for the first time in 18 years, according to CBRE. So far in the second year, tourist reservations have been topping initial-year levels.

But airlines have gotten the short end of the stick. Travel on routes between Tokyo and Hokuriku fell about 40%. The new bullet train line appears to have nearly achieved JR East's goals of stealing market share from airlines, which include shifting the ratio of rail to air travel between Tokyo gateway Haneda Airport and Toyama Airport from 6:4 to 9:1.
...
Nikkei



And first CM and date of the revenue service of the Genbi Shinkansen:

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Old March 22nd, 2016, 09:38 PM   #1753
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
If you mean the Chuo Shinkansen then I have to disappoint you. While going to be phenomenal in terms of speed this new line won't be the big relief for the Tokaido Shinkansen that it could have been. With only 5 train paths per hour and fairly small vehicles (728 seats compared to 1350 of the N700 series) the Chuo Shinkansen will replace the seating capacity of just two and a half Nozomi services.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
728*5/0.75=4853.333333333333

1350*12/1.5/2=5400

Don't think there would be much difference. if you do the math since although there is only half the capacity the speed is twice as fast and the Nozomi service is used by people heading all the way to Osaka, it equate to about the same as shown within the rough estimation above.
Maybe I don't understand a concept of "train path", but as I see it if 5 trains leave Tokyo every hour then it doesn't matter how fast they reach the target. It will still be only 5*capacity of individual train.
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Old March 22nd, 2016, 09:57 PM   #1754
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Nowadays, a travel on Shinkansen requires two tickets: a basic fare and a Shinkansen supplement ticket. In the station, passengers need to insert the two tickets at same time on the Shinkansen gate.

Is it possible to JR Group to create a unique Shinkansen ticket? This unique ticket could be valid for the entire trip (Shinkansen + local train). This could represent lower costs, respect for the environment and ease for the user.
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Old March 22nd, 2016, 10:07 PM   #1755
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Eww, with a single Shinkansen ticket you can travel (and have a reserved seat), ie from Shin-Osaka to whatever station inside the 23 wards of Tokyo. You have a free commuter travel from the Shinkansen station to your final destination, and I think the same from the starting point if it is included in a commuter area.
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Old March 22nd, 2016, 11:59 PM   #1756
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Really? Wow, I didn't know!
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Old March 23rd, 2016, 03:31 AM   #1757
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sr.Horn View Post
Eww, with a single Shinkansen ticket you can travel (and have a reserved seat), ie from Shin-Osaka to whatever station inside the 23 wards of Tokyo. You have a free commuter travel from the Shinkansen station to your final destination, and I think the same from the starting point if it is included in a commuter area.
To be precise you can't cross prefectures in using the free commuter part. I live in SagamiOhno and it's annoying when getting off at Shin-Yokohama not being able to use the free commuter part since Machida the station to make transit is part of Tokyo.
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Old March 24th, 2016, 03:13 AM   #1758
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
728*5/0.75=4853.333333333333

1350*12/1.5/2=5400

Don't think there would be much difference. if you do the math since although there is only half the capacity the speed is twice as fast and the Nozomi service is used by people heading all the way to Osaka, it equate to about the same as shown within the rough estimation above.
Since when does speed matter in terms of seating capacity? The number of seats provided on a line is the sum of seats of each train running on it. And that add up to 13'500 seats (= 10 * 1350) per hour for 10 Nozomi services and just 3'640 seats (= 5 * 728) per hour for the 5 services on the proposed Chuo Shinkansen. There you see that the Chuo Shinkansen will bring only little relief to the Tokaido Shinkansen.
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Old March 24th, 2016, 03:40 AM   #1759
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JAPAN | High Speed Rail

3640 is still a huge relief for the Shinkansen. And keeping in mind this is being privately funded the goal is to only use as many trains as needed to ensure more or less full load on both lines.

Maximum profitability is important. Especially he case when the train will mostly be siphoning passengers between the major cities and most stations are far removed from existing Shinkansen services and Japan's population is targeted to shrink by the time the system is built.

The Tokaido line still gets a Fair amount of traffic from smaller cities along the way.

After Chuo opens its likely these smaller cities will get more service.
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Old March 24th, 2016, 08:37 AM   #1760
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Since when does speed matter in terms of seating capacity? The number of seats provided on a line is the sum of seats of each train running on it. And that add up to 13'500 seats (= 10 * 1350) per hour for 10 Nozomi services and just 3'640 seats (= 5 * 728) per hour for the 5 services on the proposed Chuo Shinkansen. There you see that the Chuo Shinkansen will bring only little relief to the Tokaido Shinkansen.
From the transportation industry prospect, seat capacity and unit time rider capacity are mostly the same. That is why the airliner industry are moving away from the Jumbo 747 and A380 and favoring smaller 777,787 and A350s since they don't have to fly a large plane where ridership can be maintained at 80% constantly and and can add more flights when they require it.
With a 1,350 seat capacity train where ridership is only 50% off peak is not profitable to the operate compared to a 728 seat capacity with 80% ridership all the time. When there is more demand they can simply add more frequency.
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