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Old March 31st, 2016, 03:39 PM   #1781
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k.k.jetcar View Post
As of the beginning of shinkansen service, zero.
If you're talking scheduled passenger service, all zairaisen trains no longer use the Seikan Tunnel--the Hakuchō service with the 485 Series trainset, the Super Hakuchō service with the 789 Series trainset, and the Hokutosei, Cassiopeia and Hamanasu overnight series all were completely discontinued as of March 22, 2016. However, I believe provisions have been made for the upcoming JR East Train Suite Shiki-shima luxury train to use the Seikan Tunnel.

Now, the big question for JR East/JR Hokkaido is will they go ahead with the Train on Train project, which will make it possible to run modified JR Freight trains as fast as 200 km/h through the Seikan Tunnel? Imagine such a train being assembled/disassembled at Kikonai Station on the Hokkaido side and Shin Naka-Oguni Signal Station on the Honshu side.
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Old March 31st, 2016, 05:45 PM   #1782
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I think its a big mistake-this will damage regional integration in an area of Japan that really needs it.
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Old March 31st, 2016, 08:42 PM   #1783
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Is it possible to create a Eurotunnel-type train for cars and trucks inside Seikan Tunnel from Aomori to Kikonai?
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Old March 31st, 2016, 10:36 PM   #1784
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How much time is actually saved by this new service for those going from Hakodate to Aomori or vice versa? About 20 min, is that right?
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Old April 1st, 2016, 05:18 AM   #1785
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
How much time is actually saved by this new service for those going from Hakodate to Aomori or vice versa? About 20 min, is that right?
Super Hakucho from Shin-Aomori to Hakodate is 120 minutes

Shinkansen from Shin-Aomori to Shin-Hakodate is 61 min
(another 15 min from Shin-Hakodate to Hakodate)
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Old April 1st, 2016, 04:23 PM   #1786
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ahhhhh, forget the bullet train, now the time is of maglev train, japan should have to build a track for maglev, its speed is up to 560 km/h.
Japan is building maglev. Its the world leader. But the bullet train isn't outdated-the two systems are built on an as-appropriate basis.
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Old April 1st, 2016, 07:35 PM   #1787
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Originally Posted by RyukyuRhymer View Post
Super Hakucho from Shin-Aomori to Hakodate is 120 minutes

Shinkansen from Shin-Aomori to Shin-Hakodate is 61 min
(another 15 min from Shin-Hakodate to Hakodate)
That I knew, but I was wondering how big is a difference from city centre to city centre. How long does it take to get from Aomori to Shin-Aomori? Also 15 min? If so then my guess of 20 min savings is about right.
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Old April 1st, 2016, 09:38 PM   #1788
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From Aomori to Shin-Aomori is about 5 minutes. That would make it still a saving of about 30 minutes.

The biggest gain is for travelers from cities further south to Hakodate like Sendai. The gains in time of the future extension to Sapporo will be much greater as it takes ages to travel between these 2 cities.

Comfort wise it's also a big improvement, a Shinkansen ride is much smoother then a ride on the standard JR Hokkaido trains.
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Old April 1st, 2016, 10:39 PM   #1789
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There is an overall improvement that's for sure. Question only is how much. How big is a price difference between the new service and the old one?
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Old April 2nd, 2016, 07:02 PM   #1790
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I'm surprised the station at Shin-Hakodate is located that far away from the city center. Has it been build this way to optimise transfers to Sapporo?
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Old April 2nd, 2016, 11:52 PM   #1791
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Yes, kind off, I would say that it's better located for the future extention of the line to Sapporo. But for now it's indeed better for the transfer.


@Sunfuns
The price is significantly higher, a 50% hike.

Including seat reservation it went from 5,290 yen to 7,890 yen.
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Old April 3rd, 2016, 06:49 PM   #1792
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Hokuriku shinkansen w7
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Old April 4th, 2016, 08:17 AM   #1793
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Looking at the route of the Hokkaido Shinkansen on Google Maps, the line is an almost straight north-easterly run from Kikonai but just before it comes into Shin-Hakodate Hokuto, it makes a more than 90 degree curve turning north-west. Then if you go further past the new station, there are works on a tunnel portal. It seems that the line will go into a tunnel for the next leg to Shin-Yakumo and Sapporo.

Why did they choose this route to tunnel from Shin-Hakodate Hokuto to Shin-Yakumo? They could have chosen to go past Onuma and Mt Komagatake instead. I'm no expert, but the tight curve radius seems unnecessary, not to mention the costs of tunneling to Shin-Yakumo.

Also what is the speed limit on that curve? I suppose that all trains now and in the future will have to make scheduled stops at Shin-Hakodate Hokuto, so there is no need for high speed limits at that location. However it still seems like a wasted opportunity to have a straighter route. This curve reminds me of a similar one at Atami Station on the Tokaido Shinkansen.
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Old April 4th, 2016, 09:44 AM   #1794
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stingstingsting View Post
Looking at the route of the Hokkaido Shinkansen on Google Maps, the line is an almost straight north-easterly run from Kikonai but just before it comes into Shin-Hakodate Hokuto, it makes a more than 90 degree curve turning north-west. Then if you go further past the new station, there are works on a tunnel portal. It seems that the line will go into a tunnel for the next leg to Shin-Yakumo and Sapporo.

Why did they choose this route to tunnel from Shin-Hakodate Hokuto to Shin-Yakumo? They could have chosen to go past Onuma and Mt Komagatake instead. I'm no expert, but the tight curve radius seems unnecessary, not to mention the costs of tunneling to Shin-Yakumo.

Also what is the speed limit on that curve? I suppose that all trains now and in the future will have to make scheduled stops at Shin-Hakodate Hokuto, so there is no need for high speed limits at that location. However it still seems like a wasted opportunity to have a straighter route. This curve reminds me of a similar one at Atami Station on the Tokaido Shinkansen.
I didn't look at it too closely but it seems to be more or less the same route the Super Hakucho used?


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Old April 4th, 2016, 11:08 AM   #1795
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Quote:
I didn't look at it too closely but it seems to be more or less the same route the Super Hakucho used?
Yes, you are correct (the portion from [shin]Aomori to [shin]Hakodate).

Quote:
Why did they choose this route to tunnel from Shin-Hakodate Hokuto to Shin-Yakumo?
It is a matter of where the on-line communities are located, as well as geography. There is a considerable massif located between the Hakodate basin and Yakumo, which would require tunneling to avoid undue grades as well as curves, which would slow down trains if an at-grade or viaduct route were used. In fact, JNR actually built a second line with a viaduct for the 1067mm line to lessen the grade for trains going in the Sapporo direction, as the older route used a switchback.
This video shows that viaduct (it is the nearer one, the one in the distance is the Hokkaido shinkansen):


For more detailed route maps from Shin Hakodate to Sapporo, please see this document. Clicking on the pdf index (#5~12) on the bottom brings up the relevant portions.
http://www.pref.hokkaido.lg.jp/ss/sk...kansenroot.htm
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Old April 4th, 2016, 11:30 PM   #1796
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Also, they may look like a tight radius on a map… But I wouldn't be surprised if it is still 4000 m radius, like other lines like the Sanyo line. The Tokaido line has a minimum radius of 2500 m and that is what limits it to 285km. It was designed for a maximum speed of 200km/h.

I believe in most Greenfield implementations 6000 m is considered optimal. This should allow trains to run at speeds in excess of 400 or 500kph in the future.

There is a declining roi on straighter tracks as they require more tunnels.

If I am not mistaken the maglev was built to an 8000 m radius
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Old April 5th, 2016, 07:41 AM   #1797
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Also, they may look like a tight radius on a map… But I wouldn't be surprised if it is still 4000 m radius, like other lines like the Sanyo line. The Tokaido line has a minimum radius of 2500 m and that is what limits it to 285km. It was designed for a maximum speed of 200km/h.

I believe in most Greenfield implementations 6000 m is considered optimal. This should allow trains to run at speeds in excess of 400 or 500kph in the future.

There is a declining roi on straighter tracks as they require more tunnels.

If I am not mistaken the maglev was built to an 8000 m radius
i agree.. it looks like a tight turn on the map but on the actual scale, the turn is actually more gradual and smoother. I never noticed any tight sudden turns when I rode the Hakucho.
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Old April 6th, 2016, 08:25 PM   #1798
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Even with the loss of long distance conventional trains, I'd expect the Hokkaido shinkansen to really drive train and transit ridership elsewhere on Honshu, or at least in the Tohoku region, right?

You can't just conveniently drive a car from Sapporo to say, Sendai given the ferry in between. Since the old trains would take a while it would be obvious to just fly. But a shinkansen might push things in favor of train again, and then services with cross platform transfers at stations also benefit.
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Old April 6th, 2016, 09:00 PM   #1799
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First emergency stop since the opening of the Hokkaido Shinkansen:

Quote:
Shinkansen makes emergency stop in Hokkaido’s subsea tunnel

APR 6, 2016

SAPPORO – A shinkansen made an emergency stop on Friday inside the nearly 54-kilometer undersea tunnel on the newly opened Hokkaido Shinkansen Line, the railway operator said Wednesday.

The driver stopped the train because an emergency signal was triggered by a small metal object lying near the track, Hokkaido Railway Co. officials said. It was the first emergency halt by a bullet train since shinkansen services began between Tokyo and Hokkaido on March 26.

...

The JR Hokkaido officials said the driver of the Hayabusa No. 22 bullet train bound for Tokyo applied an emergency brake and halted the train after seeing the signal.

Soon after, a signal indicated it was safe to proceed and the train departed, arriving at Okutsugaru-Imabetsu Station only two minutes behind schedule.

The train was running at 140 kilometers per hour when it received the stop signal. About 350 passengers were aboard, with one later complaining of neck pain, the officials said.

JR Hokkaido did not previously announce the incident, on the grounds that it caused only a slight delay.

The company is investigating why the metal object — measuring roughly 6 centimeters long, 4.5 cm wide and 0.2 cm thick — had fallen near the track.

An 82-km section of the route, including the Seikan Tunnel that links Hokkaido with Aomori Prefecture, is shared with local freight trains. Because the train wheels have different gauges, the section has three rails.

It is thought that the system detected this and took it to be evidence that a freight train was on the track, causing it to send a stop signal.

...
The Japan Times


ANN News report:

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Old April 7th, 2016, 05:03 AM   #1800
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k.k.jetcar View Post
It is a matter of where the on-line communities are located, as well as geography. There is a considerable massif located between the Hakodate basin and Yakumo, which would require tunneling to avoid undue grades as well as curves, which would slow down trains if an at-grade or viaduct route were used. In fact, JNR actually built a second line with a viaduct for the 1067mm line to lessen the grade for trains going in the Sapporo direction, as the older route used a switchback.
This video shows that viaduct (it is the nearer one, the one in the distance is the Hokkaido shinkansen):


For more detailed route maps from Shin Hakodate to Sapporo, please see this document. Clicking on the pdf index (#5~12) on the bottom brings up the relevant portions.
http://www.pref.hokkaido.lg.jp/ss/sk...kansenroot.htm
Thanks for that - it was very informative! I did not know that there was a switchback on the older zairaisen Hakodate Main Line route. My eyes could have been deceived but in that video, the Hakodate basin seems fairly flat. So the Shinkansen viaduct is on a fairly flat gradient. In any case it will have to tunnel onwards from Shin-Hakodate-Hokuto, maybe going more uphill than as is.

Yes there is a considerable massif from Hakodate to Yakumo. However looking at the terrain map below, why not skirt the coast after passing Onuma, paralleling the southern section of the Hokkaido Expressway? The tunnel would be for a shorter distance. Maybe its because of geology? Who knows. The cost of tunneling all the way would certainly be far greater though.



If it was a matter of on-line communities, it does not seem like there would be much difference in the impacts. Houses and properties would still have to be acquired and towns would still have noise impacts.




Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
Also, they may look like a tight radius on a map… But I wouldn't be surprised if it is still 4000 m radius, like other lines like the Sanyo line. The Tokaido line has a minimum radius of 2500 m and that is what limits it to 285km. It was designed for a maximum speed of 200km/h.

I believe in most Greenfield implementations 6000 m is considered optimal. This should allow trains to run at speeds in excess of 400 or 500kph in the future.


My simplistic and amateur measurement of that curve on Google maps yielded a radius of around 2500m, maximum 3000m. For what I assume is a mostly greenfield location, that seems to be quite tight. That would translate to a maximum speed of 200-km/h, I take? I note that there is a considerable cant on that section to compensate for the curve as can be seen on this video:



I guess what I am trying to understand is this - how exactly will JR maximise all possibilities to get from 2016 to 2030 as envisaged below:



It seems like an, pardon the pun, uphill climb.
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