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Old October 4th, 2016, 11:01 PM   #1921
bluemeansgo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erka View Post
Well, I hope the European builders will never design a Japanese train. The visual appearance of the Shinkansen is so much better. Unmatched by the European high speed trains.
The Shinkansen 500 is as close as Japan got to a European train in Japan. It was a beloved train, whose overall design was overseen by German industrial designer Alexander Neumeister.
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Old October 6th, 2016, 01:59 AM   #1922
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Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
The Shinkansen 500 is as close as Japan got to a European train in Japan. It was a beloved train, whose overall design was overseen by German industrial designer Alexander Neumeister.
However, it was also ungodly expensive to build and its interior space wasn't that great, either--only 10 complete 16-car trainsets were ever built. Acceleration of 500 Series trainset was about the same as the far-less expensive 300 Series, also. That's why when JR Central developed the 700 Series with its lower production cost and very roomy interior, both JR Central and JR West bought them in fairly large numbers until it was superseded by N700 Series.
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Old October 6th, 2016, 06:21 AM   #1923
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The N700A matches the 500 for top speed, doesn't it? And it has better acceleration, so you get higher average speeds start-to-stop.
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Old October 6th, 2016, 11:59 AM   #1924
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Shinkansen 2015

JR West from April 2015 to March 2016 (FY2015) income 437.2 billion yen (+16,3%) for tickets in its Shinkansen trains, there were 83 million passengers (+20,3%) and 20,249 million passengers-kilometers (+12,9%); with an average journey of 246 km and an average income of 5,267 yen per passenger (€ 46.41) and 21.38 yen per passenger-km (18.83 cents €).
Rolling stock: 92 trains (7 trains 500 series, 15 700B series, 16 700E series, 44 N700 [25x16 cars + 19x8 cars] and 10 W7).
Well, then we have the 92 JR West Shinkansen trains in 2015 runs 44.29 million kilometers with an average of 481,370 km per year each train or what is the same, 1,315 km a day each train.
Since ponderated average capacity of the trains are 931 seats, it is that the bid was approximately 41,230 million available seats-kilometers, since demand was 20,449 million passengers-kilometers would be an average occupancy (passengers-kilometers / seats-kilometers) 49.60%; the average throughout the Shinkansen trains was of 59.27% in 2012 (source: Performance and efficiency of high-speed rail systems).
Source: Annual Report 2016

JR Central income 1,175.2 billion yen (+ 4.3%) for tickets in its Shinkansen trains, there were 162.87 million passengers (+ 3.5%) and 52,166 million passengers-kilometers (+ 4.1% ); with an average journey of 320 km and an average income of 7,210 yen per passenger (€ 63.52) and 22.53 yen per passenger-km (19.85 cents €).
Rolling stock: 133 trains (28 trains 700C series, and 80 N700 25 N700A). In FY2020 will be 80 N700 51 N700A.
Well, then we have the 133 JR Central Shinkansen trains in 2015 runs 61.31 million kilometers with an average of 460,996 km per year each train or what is the same, 1,260 km a day each train.
As all trains have 1,323 seats it is that the offer would be 81,116 million available seats-kilometers, since demand was 52,166 million passengers-kilometers would be an average occupancy (passengers-kilometers / seats-kilometers) 64.31%.
Source: Annual Report 2016

JR East income 578.2 billion yen (+ 10.9%) for tickets in its Shinkansen trains, there were 22,848 million passengers-kilometers (+ 9.2%); with a median income of 25.31 yen per passenger-km (22.30 cents €). No more data.
Rolling stock: 187 trains (51 E2 series, 41 E3, 26 E4, 29 E5, 23 E6 and 17 E7).
Source: Annual Report 2016

JR Kyushu does not publish Annual Report, I hope start publish now listed on the Stock Exchange.
Rolling stock: 20 trains (9 trains 800 series and 11 N700R series).

Someone has any JR Kyushu information?
JR East passengers?

Passengers on the Shinkansen network (include Mini-Shinkansen):


Shinkansen income
Shinkansen majors (East, Central and West) income 2,190.6 billion yen for tickets in its Shinkansen trains, there were 95,263 million passengers-kilometers with a median income of 23.00 yen per passenger-km (20.26 cents €).

Shinkansen rolling stock (410 trains 250 km/h or more, 26 trains for 240):


Duration of each series
Moreover, the 60 JR Central trains 700C series entered service between 1999 and 2005, and in march 2016 there are only 28, and 0 in march 2020, which is not to be a novelty in the Shinkansen trains although the rest of the world. Almost seems planned obsolescence, but it is primarily fatigue of material (constant tunnels input and output at high speeds) and lower costs in the most modern trains.
Other cases:

The first series O entered service in 1964-1966 until 1999. Maximum: 33 years.
0 series: from 1969/86 until 2008. Some trains: 22 years. (not worth counting of 1969 until 2008, the first manufactured are the first to unsubscribe, and I have no data to know the average length).
100 series: from 1986/91 until 1999/2012. Some 21; in 2005 there were 22 of 66, so 44 lasted less than 19 years. The most years: 23.
200 series: from 1982/86 until 2013. Some 27; in 2005 there were 13 of 66, so 53 lasted less than 23 years. Only in theory one could reach a maximum of 31.
300 series: from 1992/98 until 2007/12. Some 14 years, only in theory one could reach a maximum of 20. In 2005 there were 69 of 70, in 2009: 45 and in 2011: 29.
400 series: from 1992/95 until 2008/10. 15 years.
E1 series: from 1994/95 until 2012. 17/18 years.
E4 series: from 1997/03 to march 2017. 14/20 years.
The 500 series (1997/98) continues to circulate, the 9 trains manufactured are 7. But each train of eight cars, instead of the original 16.
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Old October 6th, 2016, 11:04 PM   #1925
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Zy99 View Post
The N700A matches the 500 for top speed, doesn't it? And it has better acceleration, so you get higher average speeds start-to-stop.
I believe so, yes. It's also considerably newer.

The other issue with the 500 is that it did not have tilting tech... which is why although it was technically rated higher than the original 700 was, would have been less useful on the Tokaido line as it was limited to 270kph. The 700 was limited to 285 on the Sanyo line. 270kph on Tokaido, 250 kph on Tokaido curves.

The 500 had a 320km/h design speed, which at the time was the fastest train around.

As for acceleration,
Code:
 500 : 1.6 km/h/s ( 1.92 in High acceleration mode ? )
 700 : 1.6 km/h/s (Tokaido) 2.0 km/h/s (Sanyo)
N700 : 2.6 km/h/s
source

I bet the 500-series could have been improved on just as easily as the 700, but a decision was made. I suspect there may have been some JR East/West rivalry involved as well.

The N700 and the 700 are very different trains, despite similar exteriors.

In addition to acceleration, many features ( including being a tilting train ). The acceleration gains from the 700 to the N700 are fantastic! From 300 seconds to 180 seconds to get to top speed (270km/h). It even beats out the Transrapid Maglev!
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Old October 7th, 2016, 09:48 PM   #1926
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sacto7654 View Post
However, it was also ungodly expensive to build and its interior space wasn't that great, either--only 10 complete 16-car trainsets were ever built. Acceleration of 500 Series trainset was about the same as the far-less expensive 300 Series, also. That's why when JR Central developed the 700 Series with its lower production cost and very roomy interior, both JR Central and JR West bought them in fairly large numbers until it was superseded by N700 Series.
Ok, I've already debunked the myth of the 'ungodly' expensive series 500 in this post before. In that post I didn't even mention that if you only build 9 sets of course the price per set will be higher, then for instance the 91 700 series sets and over 160 N700 sets.

The limited acceleration was the result of a design choice by JR West: Because the 500 was designed to go up to 350 km/h, it required taller gearing, which results in slower acceleration. An 360 km/h E5 also doesn't accelerate as fast, but it does have a much higher top speed. Remember JR West runs the 300 km/h Sanyo Shinkansen, whereas JR Central on the other hand runs the curvy at that time 'only' 270 km/h Tokaido Shinkansen. For them acceleration was more important.

For practical purposes the curved body was an unfortunate design choice, but damn, even now it still looks amazing. Also I highly doubt that the impact of the curved sides has as dramatic an effect on the interior space as you claim, because at shoulder height the interior is just as wide as any other model. A shame they also changed the pantographs when they shortened the sets to 8 cars though, because the new ones are ugly.

Although the curved body may have cost slightly more to build, it was the technology that made the train expensive. All axles were driven, it was the first Shinkansen with active suspension (if fitted with the right sensors it could have been made to tilt) and the old super silent pantographs were a true work of art.
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Old October 8th, 2016, 12:08 AM   #1927
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Is it possible to combine high top speed and high acceleration?
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Old October 8th, 2016, 02:19 AM   #1928
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
Ok, I've already debunked the myth of the 'ungodly' expensive series 500 in this post before. In that post I didn't even mention that if you only build 9 sets of course the price per set will be higher, then for instance the 91 700 series sets and over 160 N700 sets.

The limited acceleration was the result of a design choice by JR West: Because the 500 was designed to go up to 350 km/h, it required taller gearing, which results in slower acceleration.
Not to mention the fact that the 700-series had identical acceleration of 1.6km/h/s on the Tokaido line (250km/h max speed).
Quote:
Although the curved body may have cost slightly more to build, it was the technology that made the train expensive. All axles were driven, it was the first Shinkansen with active suspension (if fitted with the right sensors it could have been made to tilt) and the old super silent pantographs were a true work of art.
True, it is a beautiful machine. Another beauty was the Fastech "shark nose"
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Old October 8th, 2016, 02:20 AM   #1929
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Zy99 View Post
Is it possible to combine high top speed and high acceleration?
Yep.
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Old October 8th, 2016, 04:13 AM   #1930
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With conventional rail.

Maglev operates in somewhat of a separate category when comparing HSR trains.
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Old October 8th, 2016, 06:00 AM   #1931
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Zy99 View Post
With conventional rail.

Maglev operates in somewhat of a separate category when comparing HSR trains.
Well you'll need stronger and lighter magnets with a higher frequency converter to achieve that.
Relationship between acceleration and top speed in trains are the same with cars.
For acceleration you need torque and the most simplest way is to have a wide gear ratio in which powered gear is smaller than the transmission gear and visa versa for top speed requiring horsepower with faster rotation at the powered gear.

At some point you'll require to use super conductive magnets to achieve those goals but at that point it's much more efficient to simply converting to maglevs then to pursuing higher speed with better acceleration on conventional high speed rail.
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Old October 8th, 2016, 06:18 AM   #1932
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But if the cost of the superconductors goes down while concrete doesn't then existing steel rail systems are cheaper than whole new guideways.
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Old October 8th, 2016, 06:49 AM   #1933
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But if the cost of the superconductors goes down while concrete doesn't then existing steel rail systems are cheaper than whole new guideways.
Most all HSR operator has stated that it is not economically practical to purse higher speed with conventional wheel on rail configuration due to energy consumption with more damage to tracks resulting to more frequent maintenance.
Although maglev requires more energy, it requires far less maintenance off setting cost with much higher overall capacity through higher speed cutting travel time and potentially longer business hours.
So it's either HSR with no further gain in speed or Maglev that travels 200Km faster then HSR that can virtually run 24 hours a day.

As we move further into the future old technology will be replaced by the new with wheel on tracks passenger trains being one of them.
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Old October 8th, 2016, 07:06 AM   #1934
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France and California are moving up to 400 kph and beyond.

And steel wheel will always be around simply due to the massive investment already made.
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Old October 8th, 2016, 08:06 AM   #1935
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Originally Posted by 00Zy99 View Post
France and California are moving up to 400 kph and beyond.

And steel wheel will always be around simply due to the massive investment already made.
All countries with HSR are conducting research and development into 400Kph+ running. Like all industries there will be improvements to maintenance issues, especially with the current limiting factors of pantograph, rail and wheel wear. Even so often there will be announcements of this or that tech, promising much for the future. However in reality, it is like my internet connection, where greater and greater speeds are announced in new breakthrough developments but they are slow to actually appear because of the infrastructure upgrade issues.
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Old October 8th, 2016, 08:14 AM   #1936
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One thing I also like to add is that foreigners can also buy the JR Rail Pass (about 200USD?). that allows them to use the shinkansen as much as they want (most lines) for a week!
It's totally unfair. The best I can get for unlimited rides is the seishun 18, and that's hella slow.
Those foreigners come with a money not earned in Japan and spend it in your country. JR Rail pass is a good incentive to do so.

Two weeks in Japan next spring is our "big trip" next year so I'll see soon enough how it all works
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Old October 8th, 2016, 08:19 AM   #1937
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Originally Posted by 00Zy99 View Post
France and California are moving up to 400 kph and beyond.

And steel wheel will always be around simply due to the massive investment already made.
Wishful thinking is not going to get you anywhere and talk stops as reality sets in with a hefty bill for maintenance.

It's basically the end of the line with room only left for faster acceleration in which case all train sets would need to be renewed or you are back to square one.


==Edit==

I don't believe wheel on tracks configuration will disappear they will just be relabeled as trains no matter how fast they go and will be revered as old tech much like steam locos are seen today.

Last edited by SamuraiBlue; October 8th, 2016 at 08:27 AM.
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Old October 8th, 2016, 08:21 AM   #1938
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Those foreigners come with a money not earned in Japan and spend it in your country. JR Rail pass is a good incentive to do so.

Two weeks in Japan next spring is our "big trip" next year so I'll see soon enough how it all works
Don't forget to get yourself a Suica card as well.
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Old October 8th, 2016, 03:02 PM   #1939
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True, it is a beautiful machine. Another beauty was the Fastech "shark nose"
I like that one too. This nose design would have resulted in a few more seats in the end cars of the E5, but instead they opted to go with an evolved version of the arrow-line end of the Fastech 360S.
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Old October 8th, 2016, 03:39 PM   #1940
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Wishful thinking is not going to get you anywhere and talk stops as reality sets in with a hefty bill for maintenance.

It's basically the end of the line with room only left for faster acceleration in which case all train sets would need to be renewed or you are back to square one.
Now you are being rude. Please stop dismissing someone else with "wishful thinking".

Improved material science will reduce maintenance costs and maintenance is still going to be more cost-effective than an entirely new route in most cases.



Quote:
==Edit==

I don't believe wheel on tracks configuration will disappear they will just be relabeled as trains no matter how fast they go and will be revered as old tech much like steam locos are seen today.
The continued regulatory and technical differences will continue to differentiate HSR from conventional rail systems that can share tracks with freight trains.

And they will not be revered as "old tech" much like airliners and automobiles are not.

Much like SST, maglev is likely to be best-suited for certain specific ultra-high-density, high-prestige corridors for at least the next half-century.

Now please stop acting like a bully. It is not appreciated.
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