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Old October 8th, 2016, 04:55 PM   #1941
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I like that one too. This nose design would have resulted in a few more seats in the end cars of the E5, but instead they opted to go with an evolved version of the arrow-line end of the Fastech 360S.
Wasn't there a concern with tunnel boom, which is why the E5 went with that nose design instead?
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Old October 8th, 2016, 07:31 PM   #1942
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Improved material science will reduce maintenance costs and maintenance is still going to be more cost-effective than an entirely new route in most cases.
There are more abrasion resisting material around already. The problem is one cost and second not manageable in the field.
The reason they use steel rail is because it's cheap and can be bend in the field to fit curves. To have precast rails for every curve just hikes up cost.
Same with power lines where aluminum is the third conductive material second is copper and first being gold. No one is going to use gold for power lines. Anything that further hikes up cost will be disregarded from the start. Basically wheel on track configuration is at the end in terms of economic practicality for speed.




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The continued regulatory and technical differences will continue to differentiate HSR from conventional rail systems that can share tracks with freight trains.

And they will not be revered as "old tech" much like airliners and automobiles are not.

Much like SST, maglev is likely to be best-suited for certain specific ultra-high-density, high-prestige corridors for at least the next half-century.
Cars or internal combustion engine automobiles to be more specific are not going to make it in the later half of this century. Probably the same with kerosene powered engines for airplanes in which Hydrogen will be replacing it. SST was not economically practical and did not pass most noise pollution regulations.

As Maglevs becomes common and construction cost goes down some HSR lines will be converted into maglev lines since it makes more economic sense.
At the end, the term High Speed wheel on track Rail will become a foot note with nostalgic sense at the end of this century.
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Old October 8th, 2016, 07:55 PM   #1943
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Cars or internal combustion engine automobiles to be more specific are not going to make it in the later half of this century. Probably the same with kerosene powered engines for airplanes in which Hydrogen will be replacing it. SST was not economically practical and did not pass most noise pollution regulations.

As Maglevs becomes common and construction cost goes down some HSR lines will be converted into maglev lines since it makes more economic sense.
At the end, the term High Speed wheel on track Rail will become a foot note with nostalgic sense at the end of this century.
I doubt that. Particularly considering that many countries Japan included are still building new conventional HSR lines.
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Old October 8th, 2016, 08:03 PM   #1944
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Old October 8th, 2016, 08:05 PM   #1945
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I doubt that. Particularly considering that many countries Japan included are still building new conventional HSR lines.
For higher economic efficiency, Tokyo demolished the tram system with more than 40 line in the 60's and built the subway system we see today.

Japan really has no problem with scrap and build since the nation itself is based on it.

As for rail, many lines had been abandoned in all nations once they find it is not economically viable to maintain them, HS Wheel on track R are no exception.
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Old October 8th, 2016, 08:23 PM   #1946
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For higher economic efficiency, Tokyo demolished the tram system with more than 40 line in the 60's and built the subway system we see today.
Perhaps Tokyo is too big for a tram system, but many other cities erroneously demolished their tram lines in favour of cars and now are building them back at a great expense. Particularly common in USA.


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As for rail, many lines had been abandoned in all nations once they find it is not economically viable to maintain them, HS Wheel on track R are no exception.
Nothing is forever, I understand that. Just don't see how standard HSR becomes unviable in less than a hundred years. And even if it does it could be in favour of some kind of air transport instead of Maglev.

Too bad neither of us will be around to see the outcome...
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Old October 9th, 2016, 01:32 AM   #1947
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There are more abrasion resisting material around already. The problem is one cost and second not manageable in the field.
The reason they use steel rail is because it's cheap and can be bend in the field to fit curves. To have precast rails for every curve just hikes up cost.
Same with power lines where aluminum is the third conductive material second is copper and first being gold. No one is going to use gold for power lines. Anything that further hikes up cost will be disregarded from the start. Basically wheel on track configuration is at the end in terms of economic practicality for speed.
Given the emerging practicality of 3D-Printing and new meta-materials, I don't think that this is a valid argument. There is no way of forecasting what material science will be in 100 years.


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Cars or internal combustion engine automobiles to be more specific are not going to make it in the later half of this century. Probably the same with kerosene powered engines for airplanes in which Hydrogen will be replacing it. SST was not economically practical and did not pass most noise pollution regulations.
But automobiles as a concept and jet airliners moving at high subsonic speeds will still be around.

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As Maglevs becomes common and construction cost goes down some HSR lines will be converted into maglev lines since it makes more economic sense.
Maglev will act as an addition to HSR, not a replacement, since it requires different curve profiles and demand will be higher than it is now.

Then there is the huge cost of converting HSR to maglev. It will almost always be more expensive to replace wholesale than to have incremental upgrades.

Not to mention the immense disruption to a vital transport system for the time it would take to convert.

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At the end, the term High Speed wheel on track Rail will become a foot note with nostalgic sense at the end of this century.
You live at the dawn of the century. Don't go around making wild predictions as though they are certain.
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Old October 9th, 2016, 05:38 AM   #1948
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I think the reason why the original 700 Series was developed was its higher top speed than the 300 Series (285 km/h versus 270 km/h) and the fact it used a "duckbill" nose to reduce noise coming out of tunnels. You still see a small number of 700 Series trainsets on Nozomi service, but they're being rapidly replaced by N700/N700A trainsets with its 300 km/h top speed and ability to take the curves between Shin-Yokohama and Mashima Stations on the Tokaidō Shinkansen line faster.
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Old October 9th, 2016, 07:13 AM   #1949
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Given the emerging practicality of 3D-Printing and new meta-materials, I don't think that this is a valid argument.
Which results to higher cost. You don't need a Ph.D to understand that.
New technology comes with a price, something HS wheel on track R cannot afford hiking up cost further.

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But automobiles as a concept and jet airliners moving at high subsonic speeds will still be around.
Basically if you widen the concept, horse and buggy fits into your description of widening the concept as cars as well.
In the future with UBER and automated driving mechanism it will change the society where people of the last century will not able understand the concept of cars to their own.


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Maglev will act as an addition to HSR, not a replacement, since it requires different curve profiles and demand will be higher than it is now..... snip


You live at the dawn of the century. Don't go around making wild predictions as though they are certain.
You see you are guilt of the very thing you accuse predicting the future saying that HS wheel on track R will live on. I say that is a wild prediction stating that the economy will select and maintain something even though there are alternatives that are more economically efficient.
I postulated that the term HS wheel on track will R will be bunched up into just trains and the term HSR will be re-designated towards maglevs only since they are more economically efficient and will become more common replacing some lines in the future.
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Old October 9th, 2016, 10:54 AM   #1950
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Perhaps Tokyo is too big for a tram system, but many other cities erroneously demolished their tram lines in favour of cars and now are building them back at a great expense. Particularly common in USA.
Tokyo does have a few tram lines like the Toden Arakawa line


but they are very few (maybe 2 or 3 lines)?

and I find them to be low capacity.
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Old October 9th, 2016, 11:40 AM   #1951
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and I find them to be low capacity.
Compared to subways? Of course...

Actually are trams common in the smaller (<1 million) Japanese cities or do they rely mostly in buses?
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Old October 9th, 2016, 01:11 PM   #1952
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Compared to subways? Of course...

Actually are trams common in the smaller (<1 million) Japanese cities or do they rely mostly in buses?
Ripped up most of them but are now building back. A few examples of legacy systems are mostly on Kyushu and Shikoku. Hiroshima kept it's tram. Nagasaki, kumamoto, Kagoshima on Kyushu all have. Matsuyama and Kochi on Shikoku too.

Now there are new tram cities coming up. Toyama is a success story. Utsunomiya is now green lit to build a new system too.
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Old October 9th, 2016, 03:26 PM   #1953
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Is it possible to combine high top speed and high acceleration?
In theory yes, but given that it hasn't been done yet, it's probably not easy to do.
The thing is, quick acceleration requires a high torque on the driven axles.
You could do that by making the motors spin faster, but that would seriously decrease motor efficiency and reduce life span of all drive train components.
The only viable way is by beefing up all drive train components. That in turn makes your bogies and entire train heavier, which is the last thing you want.
Despite that over the years drive train components have shrunk in size considerably, also top speeds continue to rise, thus you're still stuck with a compromise between acceleration and top speed.
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Old October 9th, 2016, 07:06 PM   #1954
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Which results to higher cost. You don't need a Ph.D to understand that.
New technology comes with a price, something HS wheel on track R cannot afford hiking up cost further.
And those costs go down. I don't need a PhD to understand that either. Standard HSR can still afford more new technology before it ceases to be cost-competitive with maglev, especially due to its backwards compatibility and greater available industrial base and scale.

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Basically if you widen the concept, horse and buggy fits into your description of widening the concept as cars as well.
In the future with UBER and automated driving mechanism it will change the society where people of the last century will not able understand the concept of cars to their own.
No, because horses are not mechanical. Taxis and chauffeurs existed 100 years ago, as did battery-powered cars. There were even some experiments with automation under the US Capitol. So things would hardly be unrecognizable. And there is a reason why self-driving cars have taken so long-they need to be backwards-compatible with existing roadways. You may notice that we don't have any special magnet-embedded roads running around. Maglev doesn't have any backwards-compatibility at all, and there much more divergences in standards, as compared to the relative standardization of conventional HSR.


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You see you are guilt of the very thing you accuse predicting the future saying that HS wheel on track R will live on. I say that is a wild prediction stating that the economy will select and maintain something even though there are alternatives that are more economically efficient.
You have no way of knowing for certain what will be more economically efficient, and I have produced evidence to the contrary, which hardly makes it a wild prediction. You are continuing to be rude about this. Please at least maintain some decorum.

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I postulated that the term HS wheel on track will R will be bunched up into just trains and the term HSR will be re-designated towards maglevs only since they are more economically efficient and will become more common replacing some lines in the future.
And I have noted that it is unlikely to be economically or practically viable to do so. You have not explained how the disruption of replacement would be handled, nor have you explained why organizations would opt for replacement instead of developing more capacity in the face of increased traffic. Without such massive traffic flows, the cost of a new HSR line of any type is unlikely to be economically viable.

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Originally Posted by RyukyuRhymer View Post
Tokyo does have a few tram lines like the Toden Arakawa line


but they are very few (maybe 2 or 3 lines)?

and I find them to be low capacity.
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Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
Ripped up most of them but are now building back. A few examples of legacy systems are mostly on Kyushu and Shikoku. Hiroshima kept it's tram. Nagasaki, kumamoto, Kagoshima on Kyushu all have. Matsuyama and Kochi on Shikoku too.

Now there are new tram cities coming up. Toyama is a success story. Utsunomiya is now green lit to build a new system too.
There is a proposal currently floating about for the removal of the Metropolitan Expressway at Nihonbashi. The plan calls for installing a new tramway through the area and creating a quieter, greener, neighborhood.

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Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
In theory yes, but given that it hasn't been done yet, it's probably not easy to do.
The thing is, quick acceleration requires a high torque on the driven axles.
You could do that by making the motors spin faster, but that would seriously decrease motor efficiency and reduce life span of all drive train components.
The only viable way is by beefing up all drive train components. That in turn makes your bogies and entire train heavier, which is the last thing you want.
Despite that over the years drive train components have shrunk in size considerably, also top speeds continue to rise, thus you're still stuck with a compromise between acceleration and top speed.
I see. Thank you for discussing this in a technical manner. Is there any prospect of a future technical advance that enables improvements in both?
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Old October 10th, 2016, 08:45 AM   #1955
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I see. Thank you for discussing this in a technical manner. Is there any prospect of a future technical advance that enables improvements in both?
Yes, it's called maglev...
But seriously, for classic wheel on rails trains I think we are approaching the limits. Not so much the technical limits (a 'classic' train could go up at least 575 km/h), but the time and energy it takes to accelerate to top speed and the noise a train at speed makes will pose practical limits. Currently I would say this limit is at around 350 km/h. It may creep up in the future, but I don't expect it to exceed 400 km/h any time soon.
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Old October 10th, 2016, 09:08 AM   #1956
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Compared to subways? Of course...

Actually are trams common in the smaller (<1 million) Japanese cities or do they rely mostly in buses?
Which still does not mean big cities do not need big tram systems!
After all, subways have the problem of being at a separate grade.
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Old October 11th, 2016, 06:28 AM   #1957
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New episode of Japan Railway Journal available:



Episode 23 is themed around the rapid rehabilitation of the Kyushu Shinkansen after the first of the earthquakes on 14 April, with emphasis on the complex removal undertaken for the derailed 800 series Shinkansen set in Kumamoto.

I might be wrong here, but for a relatively new line and after the 2004 Joetsu derailment, I am surprised that derailment guards weren't installed much earlier or even during construction. Considering this, its short of miraculous that the most affected trainset was one without any passengers. It must have been quite a stroke of luck anyhow.

After watching the complicated albeit well-executed rerailing of one trainset, I am hopeful that the full implementation of derailment guards (and other devices) will be a worthwhile spend of JR Kyushu's profits on the Kyushu Shinkansen line.

On a side note, the 800 series is one of my favourite Shinkansen trainsets. I recall travelling on them 2 years ago and thinking that simply having wood panelling added so much unquantifiable elegance and comfort on the trip. I guess the 2+2 seating must have helped too

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... But seriously, for classic wheel on rails trains I think we are approaching the limits. Not so much the technical limits (a 'classic' train could go up at least 575 km/h), but the time and energy it takes to accelerate to top speed and the noise a train at speed makes will pose practical limits. Currently I would say this limit is at around 350 km/h. It may creep up in the future, but I don't expect it to exceed 400 km/h any time soon.
00Zy99 I identify with you insofar as hoping that High Speed Rail will retain its current status and relevance compared to more inferior modes of transport, and I tend to agree with many of your points. I acknowledge that part of my affinity for HSR is visceral and I do not really want to see maglev overtake it, to the point of considering HSR a sort of romantic way to travel (I know, strange). However, my pragmatic side tends to agree that we are reaching limits in improving HSR operations, that are unlikely to be easily overcome with materials, technology and costs. I'm not saying that you are the same though. Its sad for me, but hey what's to hate about Maglevs unless you have a pacemaker? (JOKING)
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Old October 13th, 2016, 01:53 AM   #1958
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Most all HSR operator has stated that it is not economically practical to purse higher speed with conventional wheel on rail configuration due to energy consumption with more damage to tracks resulting to more frequent maintenance.
Although maglev requires more energy, it requires far less maintenance off setting cost with much higher overall capacity through higher speed cutting travel time and potentially longer business hours.
When it comes to hsr, energy cost represents just >=10% of the overall costs.

Correct me if i am wrong, but JR East after concluding the high speed trials, assessed that there is no need for change in track maintenance strategy. The same with OHLE.

You keep saying about the economic viability of maglev systems, especially compared to conventional hsr, but do you have numbers to support the claim?
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Old October 13th, 2016, 03:31 AM   #1959
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When it comes to hsr, energy cost represents just >=10% of the overall costs.

Correct me if i am wrong, but JR East after concluding the high speed trials, assessed that there is no need for change in track maintenance strategy. The same with OHLE.

You keep saying about the economic viability of maglev systems, especially compared to conventional hsr, but do you have numbers to support the claim?
JR East after extensive testing had dropped the 350Km/h plans and geared down to 320Km/h top speed.
Ask JR Central for the maintenance cost comparison. They are the ones who are most vocal about this topic.

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Old October 13th, 2016, 09:12 AM   #1960
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I was under the impression that it was always JR East's intention to increase the speed in steps. The testing concluded that some extra noise preventing measures are needed to allow speed raises past 320 km/h. That's why they stuck to 320 km/h for now, but future options remain open.
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