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Old January 11th, 2007, 02:21 AM   #221
sequoias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guinessbeer55 View Post
im pretty sure its 65 mph... they said the trains would run at higher speeds on the elevated and tunnel portions of the line.
Yeah, I think it's more likely that it will go up to 65 mph in long tunnels and on elevated routes and it's a newer generation of light rail trains.
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Old January 11th, 2007, 08:34 PM   #222
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The 1500 volt Catenary line is for money savings, the substations are around 1 million each and going from 750 to 1500 volts cuts the number of substations by half. The 750 volt systems are some what of an industry standard, but it's not like the parts for light rail are off the shelf items, most everything is supplied from the vendors. Track, Wayside, Vehicle, Testing will go on from now until the line opens. Seattle's LRV's were Tested and Tuned in Colorado.
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Old January 12th, 2007, 09:59 AM   #223
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Just to answer and clarify a previous question regarding the distance Sound Transit is building the light rail, the current tax package will take the light rail from Seatac Airport to Westlake in downtown. This will be open by December of 09. Pending Sound Transit is granted federal money and they reach an agreement with the University of Washington, they will also extend this through capital hill and up to Montlake and Husky Stadium. Sound Transit hopes this can get done by 2014 (think that's the right date).

What they call ST2 is a new tax package pending voter approval in November this year (2007). Here's a link to a news release outlining the draft package:

http://www.soundtransit.org/x4289.xml

You can click the link within the news release for a pdf download slightly more detailed on the package.

In essence, new tax approval is needed to get to places like Lynnwood.
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Old January 12th, 2007, 07:29 PM   #224
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I'd vote for it.
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My safety word is "Keep Going."
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Old January 13th, 2007, 02:55 AM   #225
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Ugh, I hate how ST isn't proposing a Bellevue tunnel + Redmond extension. Why must we choose either or? Transit tunnels in major downtowns are always a given! And why are we going to the Port of Tacoma??? I'm also unsure about the Everett extension in the future---what's Sounder for? But I do like the UW-Redmond 520 plan and the Issaquah one.
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Old January 13th, 2007, 03:09 AM   #226
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Ugh, I hate how ST isn't proposing a Bellevue tunnel + Redmond extension. Why must we choose either or? Transit tunnels in major downtowns are always a given! And why are we going to the Port of Tacoma??? I'm also unsure about the Everett extension in the future---what's Sounder for? But I do like the UW-Redmond 520 plan and the Issaquah one.
I know... I think they need to build the tunnel in dontown Bellevue and then continue on in to downtown Redmond... forget about going south to Kent and Tacoma and North to Everett... they already have the Sounder trains...
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Old January 13th, 2007, 07:30 AM   #227
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They should focus more on the Eastside extension like to Issaquah and Redmond because theres a bulk of commuters between Seattle and the Eastside.

Light rail should extend to Everett and Tacoma as population grows and traffic congestion worsens because they come every few minutes rather than a hour or so like the Sounder trains do and they only limit to peak hours going only Northbound or Southbound.

Not everyone wants to hop in a commuter rail corridor just to go get something like groceries, shopping out or a meeting or whatever they are doing. It's all because of the limited schedule and stations.
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Old January 13th, 2007, 07:43 AM   #228
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Ariel view of the mantience base for the Link LR.

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Old January 14th, 2007, 03:28 AM   #229
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So with the ST2 package being voted on in November, Sound Transit wants to build 40 additional miles of light rail, build a streetcar to first hill, and improve road conditions.

SO IF YOU LIVE IN SEATTLE VOTE YES!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old January 14th, 2007, 08:47 AM   #230
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My initial response would be a yes vote, but I'm slightly concerned about the price-tag. If I'm correct, this is just the mass transit part of the package to be put before voters. There will also be a roads portion with it's own portion of the tax. I don't think that's included in the half-cent to a dollar purchase plan Sound Transit has. Here's my concern, though. The Seattle area has flinched in the past over heavy transportation funding and Seattle (the citizenry, not the city officials) is wary of the price tag attached to replacing the viaduct with a tunnel. Does that reflect the whole area voting on this package?

I worry that with such a large scale (40 miles of rail!) that perhaps we are biting off more than we can chew in this political climate. Then again, there is a general frustration that seems apparent over increasing congestion.

I hope this passes. We need it. I'm willing to pay for it. I hope the rest of the area is too.

Last edited by Jaxom92; January 14th, 2007 at 08:50 AM. Reason: Corrected a factual error.
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Old January 16th, 2007, 12:15 AM   #231
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I just started to wonder....

How come there's no station proposed between Cap Hill & UW? There's a giant gap there. And why don't they add stations between others that are far apart? If we place stations too far apart, it might end up only being a commuter line (unless that's ST's goal?). I think adding stations might be beneficial: encourage denser development, connecting adjacent neighborhoods, adding more ridership, more of a city 'metro' than another commuter rail etc etc.


Here's an old simulation of a 3-car train (it might be outdated). At first glance I thought it was 6-cars lol. The stations --even the surface ones-- are built to eventually handle 4-car trains. I think ST said that they'll start with 2-cars though. So if I do the math right, our system will initially be capable of transporting 4,800 pphpd during rush hour (2x200cap trains every 5 minutes).

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Old January 16th, 2007, 02:16 AM   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kub86 View Post
I just started to wonder....

How come there's no station proposed between Cap Hill & UW? There's a giant gap there. And why don't they add stations between others that are far apart? If we place stations too far apart, it might end up only being a commuter line (unless that's ST's goal?). I think adding stations might be beneficial: encourage denser development, connecting adjacent neighborhoods, adding more ridership, more of a city 'metro' than another commuter rail etc etc.


Here's an old simulation of a 3-car train (it might be outdated). At first glance I thought it was 6-cars lol. The stations --even the surface ones-- are built to eventually handle 4-car trains. I think ST said that they'll start with 2-cars though. So if I do the math right, our system will initially be capable of transporting 4,800 pphpd during rush hour (2x200cap trains every 5 minutes).


I thought there was gonna be a station at montlake??
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Old January 16th, 2007, 03:00 AM   #233
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Aye, the Montlake station is the one at the UW campus. The southeast side right by Husky stadium. Eventually they'll be one at Brooklyn between 43rd and 45th, west of the campus; Roosevelt, just west of 12th avenue; and then Northgate.

Sound transit still needs to work out the details with the University of Washington. The college is concerned that the train vibrations will disrupt the extremely sensitive seismic monitoring devices on the campus as well as other vibration sensitive equipment, experiments and research.

As to kub86's comment about the spacing between stations, that's a good point. Where it's even more noticeable is between the last station in Rainer valley and the one and only station in Tukwilla on International Boulevard. There is a differed station at Boeing Access Road, but all through Tukwilla, there's nothing. I believe this was because the city put up great opposition to the light rail line in their city at all and Sound Transit had to settle with this routing.

Last edited by Jaxom92; January 16th, 2007 at 03:03 AM. Reason: Address another comment instead of double post.
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Old January 16th, 2007, 03:40 AM   #234
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At one time, there was supposed to be a station at First Hill:



The First Hill station was eliminated due technical problems due to a combination of the depth of the tunnel and poor soil conditions.

Whenever there are problems in routing a transit line, the knee jerk solution is to put it in a tunnel. Seattle is demonstrating just how complicated this solution can be. The cost is extremely high and technical issues can limit the possible locations for stations.
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Old January 16th, 2007, 03:50 AM   #235
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yeah, to include the first hill neighborhood, Sound Transit is building a streetcar, I think it will be an extention of the waterfront line, if not it will be a brand new line from Westlake station in the shopping district...
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Old January 16th, 2007, 10:13 PM   #236
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Quote:
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yeah, to include the first hill neighborhood, Sound Transit is building a streetcar, I think it will be an extention of the waterfront line, if not it will be a brand new line from Westlake station in the shopping district...
More likely a brand new line from Westlake Station or somewhere. The waterfront line is operated under King County metro transit, it's a old style streetcar, too.
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Old January 17th, 2007, 05:52 AM   #237
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Quote:
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More likely a brand new line from Westlake Station or somewhere. The waterfront line is operated under King County metro transit, it's a old style streetcar, too.
I have seen various possible routes mentioned. There doesn't yet seem to be a concrete plan. I still find it irksome that a supplemental light rail system will be needed at the surface along approximately the same route as the main light rail system underground between downtown and Capitol Hill.

Seattle's topography presented major engineering challenges for the streetcar systems of the early part of the last century. The following images appeared in an article in the Seattle Post-Intelligencer < http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/...rground11.html >:




From 1898 until Aug. 10, 1940, streetcars made their way between upper and lower Queen Anne Hill, assisted by a weighting system called a "counterbalance."




W.W. Wiley had charge of the counterbalance starting in 1912. When a streetcar was going up the hill, he'd hook it up to a cable on the counterbalance.




The rubble of paving blocks and twisted rails, shown after the elimination of the streetcar line, was evidence of the work needed to resurface Queen Anne Hill. But the counterweight tunnel was not filled in.


Those will with good eyesight will be able to discern in the last photo an electric trolley bus heading up the hill obviously without the need of a counterbalance.
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Old January 17th, 2007, 01:50 PM   #238
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http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/...rground11.html

Saturday, March 11, 2006

Piece of history concealed within Queen Anne Hill
Planning for new park spurs some to envision underground tours

By KERY MURAKAMI
P-I REPORTER

It's still in little more than the "wouldn't-it-be-cool" stage, and the idea of giving tours of a largely forgotten tunnel in Queen Anne Hill may seem bizarre.

But then again, people thought Bill Speidel was a little nutty when he decided to take tourists on his underground tours below Pioneer Square.

To understand what lies down there, you have to understand what used to run above ground on Queen Anne Avenue.

From 1898 until Aug. 10, 1940, streetcars made the arduous climb and steep descent between upper and lower Queen Anne.

In San Francisco, moving cables pulled that city's famous cable cars along and up hills. Cable cars, including one that ran on Yesler Way, climbed some of Seattle's hills as well.

But what pulled streetcars up Queen Anne Hill and kept them from plummeting downhill was a system called the "counterbalance," which was a curiosity even back then.

Below Queen Anne Avenue North is a narrow tunnel that's only 3 feet tall in most places. But in some portions it is tall in enough for people to stand, and the track and the weighted counterbalance cars are still there.

A counterbalance is a squat, 16-ton car on small wheels that stands about waist-high. When a streetcar was going up the hill, a worker would hook it up to a cable attached to the counterbalance. The weighted car in the tunnel at the top of the hill would be released, and as it descended, it would pull the streetcar up the hill.

When streetcars wanted to go back down the hill, they would be attached to the counterbalance that now waited at the bottom of the tunnel. Though the streetcars had brakes, the weight of pulling the counterbalance back up the hill kept the streetcars from plummeting out of control down the hill.

"Sometimes the cable would break, so they had sandbags at the bottom of the hill to break the

crash," said Keith Biever, a member of Queen Anne's Uptown Alliance of community groups. Biever is taking the lead in exploring the idea of an underground counterbalance tour.

Recalling the counterbalance seems especially appropriate at a time when the city is again grappling with how to move people around.

But Biever, who sat at the city's Neighborhood Service Center near the bottom of the hill the other day, said what's inspiring the idea of an underground tour is a park.

The neighborhood, working with the city of Seattle, is building a new park at Queen Anne Avenue North and Roy Street. Hoping to reflect the spot's history at the bottom of the hill, neighborhood groups have asked the city to name the park Counterbalance Square.

The park is still largely a gravel lot that was used for a neighborhood holiday party last year, but neighborhood groups are hoping to add benches, tables, chairs, street trees and lights that would illuminate the walls along the park.

The city has contributed $300,000. The community has raised almost another $300,000 thus far toward the estimated $1 million total cost.

Biever said architects, city staff members and a few people from the neighborhood were brainstorming ways to raise the remaining $400,000 when the idea came up: Why not an underground tour? (The Uptown Alliance also is planning to raise money in more traditional ways.)

It's not clear how much of the tunnel would be accessible, but Biever thinks people would be willing to pay to have a look at the counterbalance cars. After all, he said, a rite of passage for some youths has been to sneak down into the tunnel.

One woman who also happened to be at the Queen Anne Neighborhood Service Center said her son sneaked down there one night. She didn't want to give her name to protect her son, who is now a Seattle schoolteacher -- and what kind of an example would that be to kids?

"I just remember the police brought him home all dirty," the woman said of that night. She said her son never described what the tunnel was like. "I think at that point his father and I were so angry, he never said a word about it," she said.

Biever conceded that many details need to be worked out before people could be sent traipsing through a tunnel that's been closed for 65 years.

He and a city parks employee Cathy Tuttle, are planning to start meeting with officials from various agencies to find out what it would take.

Gregg Hirakawa, spokesman for the Seattle Transportation Department, which still owns the tunnel, said the department hasn't explored the idea yet, but safety would be a prime concern. "It seems tricky," Hirakawa said.

One person who said she'd go on a tour was Kay Frances Reinartz, a historian who wrote a history of the neighborhood, "Queen Anne: Community on the Hill."

The ride down the hill was famous for one point, Reinartz said. The hill descends rapidly, then becomes level for a moment before descending again -- and that would jolt the streetcar. As it approached the bump, "the conductor would apparently yell, 'Hang on!' " Reinartz said.

She said a woman was killed in 1910 when she was thrown from the streetcar.


P-I reporter Kery Murakami can be reached at 206-448-8131 or [email protected].
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Old January 17th, 2007, 09:24 PM   #239
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I knew that Seattle had hill climbing streetcars like SF does. I have seen hill climbing streetcars so many times when I lived in the San Francisco bay area.

They are proposing a route extension from International district, Jackson corridor to Broadway corridor, that area is not steep hills like Queen Anne or Madison St corridor. They will do fine without counterbalance stuff.
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Old January 19th, 2007, 04:57 AM   #240
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So I wrote an email to sound transit asking them about the train testing because when I was downtown I noticed that they were only pushing the train along and it wasnt running on its own power... they said that they will begin testing the trains on their own power in februrary, so be on the look out...
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