daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Subways and Urban Transport

Subways and Urban Transport Metros, subways, light rail, trams, buses and other local transport systems



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old September 24th, 2016, 12:51 PM   #2701
Rail_Serbia
Registered User
 
Rail_Serbia's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Beograd
Posts: 963
Likes (Received): 668

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tågälskaren View Post
$54 billion dollar question: expand light rail or back to drawing board?

SEATTLE - Advocates call it visionary, necessary and bold; opponents fear it could be a $54 billion dollar boondoggle[...]
Better question is why USA light rail systems are the most expensive in the world? For example, to build an overground rail section in Belgrade, Serbia is 17.000.000$ per km + 2.000.000$ for every station. For street level section is nor more than 7.000.000$ including changing all underground heating, electric, water, savage network, and rebuilding of the road. For sections on a lawn, it is 2.000.000$ per km. Those prices doesn't include rolling stocks, but with two LRV-s per km, in Belgrade is possible to build 2.000 km of light rail. Wages of construction workers in Serbia are 400$-800$ per month, but the most of materials and rolling stocks have similar prices in world trade.

And, one another interesting question: Why nobody in USA make question about so high costs of rail projects?
Rail_Serbia no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old September 24th, 2016, 05:21 PM   #2702
DCUrbanist
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 62
Likes (Received): 62

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rail_Serbia View Post
Better question is why USA light rail systems are the most expensive in the world? For example, to build an overground rail section in Belgrade, Serbia is 17.000.000$ per km + 2.000.000$ for every station. For street level section is nor more than 7.000.000$ including changing all underground heating, electric, water, savage network, and rebuilding of the road. For sections on a lawn, it is 2.000.000$ per km. Those prices doesn't include rolling stocks, but with two LRV-s per km, in Belgrade is possible to build 2.000 km of light rail. Wages of construction workers in Serbia are 400$-800$ per month, but the most of materials and rolling stocks have similar prices in world trade.

And, one another interesting question: Why nobody in USA make question about so high costs of rail projects?
And THAT is the $64,000 Question. If you could figure that out, you could make quite a bit of money over here. The sad answer is that nobody really knows. There's probably not one single source, but a few people have suggested:

1. Labor costs
2. Contract structures that don't properly control cost increases
3. An over-reliance on lowest-bid contracting that promotes lowballing cost estimates to win the contract
4. The fact that contractors can sue the public sector much more freely here than elsewhere
5. Scope creep, where projects just slowly get bigger and more bloated until they're far larger than they will ever realistically need to be

Probably the best example is the Green Line Extension in Boston, which is a 6.9km light-rail line on an existing right-of-way that cost $2B at the awarding of contracts and then reached 3 BILLION dollars.

Any other reasons, y'all?
__________________

DanielFA, Dan78 liked this post

Last edited by DCUrbanist; September 26th, 2016 at 06:53 PM.
DCUrbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 24th, 2016, 05:46 PM   #2703
Sunfuns
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,426
Likes (Received): 361

An obvious one you forgot is the cost of land if any needs to be acquired. Not only the cost itself, but also endless lawsuits which accompany such acquisition.
__________________

DanielFA liked this post
Sunfuns no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 24th, 2016, 06:36 PM   #2704
DCUrbanist
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 62
Likes (Received): 62

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
An obvious one you forgot is the cost of land if any needs to be acquired. Not only the cost itself, but also endless lawsuits which accompany such acquisition.
Mountains of bureaucracy and lawsuits. How could I forget!
__________________

DanielFA, Dan78, pudgym29 liked this post
DCUrbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 25th, 2016, 07:49 AM   #2705
SounderBruce
Transit Photographer
 
SounderBruce's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Seattle
Posts: 2,240
Likes (Received): 3626

Quote:
Originally Posted by Natorious View Post
On a map I saw as part of ST3 that Seattle and Tacoma will be linked by lightrail in 2030. Íf approved, will that be instead of the current commuter rail or will the lightrail follow a different route?
Commuter rail service would continue and even be expanded under ST3, on the South Line. The North Line also intersects with planned light rail in Everett, but both lines serve very different corridors than the light rail will. Light rail will generally follow Interstate 5, while Sounder South follows the Green River Valley (SR 167) and the North Line follows the coast (and ferry terminals).

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweet-d View Post
Why doesn't Seattle opt to build at least one heavy rail line? Light Rail is good but wouldn't it much more efficient to continue with light rail and also build one subway/elevated metro?
Under ST3, the planned "Red Line" from West Seattle to Everett would be 100% grade separated and pretty much meet the requirements of being called a metro.

It is much more efficient to have a single light rail system than a split system like Los Angeles built. Compatible rolling stock, compatible stations, compatible systems...and most of all compatible branding in the minds of customers, who would be rather confused when you throw in additional qualifiers to think about.
__________________
My Urban Showcase Thread - Seattle's skyscrapers, roads and transit

Maps of Seattle and the Puget Sound region

Twitter - Flickr - Wikipedia - Seattle Transit Blog - SkyriseCities

DanielFA, Dan78, Natorious, sweet-d liked this post
SounderBruce no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 26th, 2016, 04:59 PM   #2706
Dan78
Registered User
 
Dan78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Boston/Washington DC/Berlin
Posts: 156
Likes (Received): 55

Quote:
Originally Posted by DCUrbanist View Post
Mountains of bureaucracy and lawsuits. How could I forget!
As an example, two Purple Line projects (one in LA and the other in the DC metro area) have been and are being held up by years of baseless lawsuits from people who just plain don't want a rail transit line through their community in any way, shape, or form. Or in Washington State witness Kemper Freeman's one-man crusade against Seattle's light rail project. This type of thing is pretty rare outside of the US, if it exists at all.
__________________
Dan78 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 26th, 2016, 08:44 PM   #2707
etooley1985
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 86
Likes (Received): 317

Totally true for parts of my city (Los Angeles) also - like in Beverly Hills, the worst place on earth IMHO. I feel your pain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan78 View Post
As an example, two Purple Line projects (one in LA and the other in the DC metro area) have been and are being held up by years of baseless lawsuits from people who just plain don't want a rail transit line through their community in any way, shape, or form. Or in Washington State witness Kemper Freeman's one-man crusade against Seattle's light rail project. This type of thing is pretty rare outside of the US, if it exists at all.
__________________

Dan78, ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
etooley1985 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 29th, 2016, 01:04 AM   #2708
Woonsocket54
PC LOAD LETTER
 
Woonsocket54's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: East Millinocket, Maine
Posts: 5,644
Likes (Received): 5754

Old fart

Hilarious "letter to the editor" by an old fart:

Quote:
ST3: Transit measure is a money grab
Dan Fluaitt, Puyallup

I get very irate every time I read about Sound Transit wanting my property taxes for public transportation. Why should my property taxes subsidize someone else’s transportation?

I pay my taxes in the expectation they will be used in Pierce County for better schools, fire and police departments, parks and public recreation, not for someone to ride a train to work. You don’t pay for my vehicle licenses or fuel taxes; why should I pay for your commute?

In my 70-plus years, I’ve never ridden public transportation and probably never will. According to Sound Transit’s schedule, I’ll be long gone before any of it is even built.

To those that say it will reduce congestion on our roads, you’re probably correct, but then the HOV lanes were supposed to accomplish that, too; that is if you can afford them.

Again, I say no to Sound Transit. Leave my property taxes in Pierce County where they belong.
http://www.thenewstribune.com/opinio...104658631.html
__________________
Woonsocket54 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 30th, 2016, 12:12 AM   #2709
BoulderGrad
Registered User
 
BoulderGrad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 5,512
Likes (Received): 1177

Is he or anyone in his immediate family enrolled in school at the moment? Is his house currently on fire? Is he currently being robbed?... Such a waste of his property taxes for these services (by his logic) to pay for someone else to go to school or have their house fire put out.
__________________
My safety word is "Keep Going."

DanielFA, ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
BoulderGrad no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 30th, 2016, 07:14 AM   #2710
towerpower123
Let's Revive our Cities
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Howell/Newark, NJ
Posts: 2,254
Likes (Received): 4188

^ That is the Libertarian way of looking at things, from the perspective of the old man. It's all about me, me, me, and SCREW YOU AND YOUR NEEDS. It is looking at the right now and not the problems of tomorrow or 5 years from now. While many Seattle residents will be able to get on the train, Dan Fluiatt will be stuck paying $10 a gallon or more for gas when the prices inevitably go back up as he continues to drive his car rather than pay THE MAN for a train ticket that will be much more stable in price.
__________________
If I don't say otherwise, all of my images are on my blog,
http://urbanismvsmodernism.blogspot.com/?view=sidebar

186 Newark, NJ Development projects MAPPED
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1874870
http://urbanismvsmodernism.blogspot....l?view=sidebar

See my DeviantArt account at http://towerpower123.deviantart.com/

TM_Germany, Dan78, 00Zy99, DanielFA, pudgym29 and 1 others liked this post
towerpower123 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 5th, 2016, 03:02 AM   #2711
SounderBruce
Transit Photographer
 
SounderBruce's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Seattle
Posts: 2,240
Likes (Received): 3626

Pictures and video from the Angle Lake Station opening on September 24.


Angle Lake Station over S 200th Street by SounderBruce, on Flickr


First train at Angle Lake Station by SounderBruce, on Flickr


Link in chrome for Angle Lake by SounderBruce, on Flickr


Angle Lake Station ribbon cutting by SounderBruce, on Flickr



Angle Lake Station opening by SounderBruce, on Flickr


Waiting to ride to Angle Lake by SounderBruce, on Flickr

And some video, from both sides:





And from the media preview day:

SounderBruce no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 5th, 2016, 09:28 AM   #2712
ssiguy2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: White Rock BC
Posts: 5,404
Likes (Received): 857

Looks great.

I must admit I find it odd how LINK is grade separated out in the suburbs but not when you enter Seattle itself where there is more congestion. Seems kind of ass-backwards to me.
__________________

ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
ssiguy2 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 5th, 2016, 03:54 PM   #2713
Dan78
Registered User
 
Dan78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Boston/Washington DC/Berlin
Posts: 156
Likes (Received): 55

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
I must admit I find it odd how LINK is grade separated out in the suburbs but not when you enter Seattle itself where there is more congestion. Seems kind of ass-backwards to me.
I'm guessing it happened that way for political reasons and to save money. The Rainier Valley segment was originally going to be in a tunnel but at some point it was decided this was too costly so they put it in the street median instead. The result is that Link train headways are limited by the RV segment and its interaction with auto traffic. RV is less well-off than Northern Seattle or the Eastside so they have less political clout. If a cost saving measure was going to be instituted, here is where it was going to happen.

Nothing is as weird as Buffalo, NY, which has a light rail system that runs on street level through the *city center* (albeit in a former "pedestrian mall") but in a *tunnel* in the suburban area it runs through. Now that the pedestrian mall is being scrapped the LRVs now share the street space with cars, which the city transportation department admits will cause some "complications". It'd have been better if the entire length of the system had just been put in a tunnel.
__________________

DanielFA, ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
Dan78 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 6th, 2016, 07:42 AM   #2714
Ginkgo
Registered User
 
Ginkgo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,679
Likes (Received): 3574

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
Looks great.

I must admit I find it odd how LINK is grade separated out in the suburbs but not when you enter Seattle itself where there is more congestion. Seems kind of ass-backwards to me.
Not entirely true. The street running is only from just south of Rainier Beach station to just south of Mount Baker. From Mount Baker station northbound all the way to UW/Husky Stadium, the line is grade separated, except for a couple of arterial crossings at grade in SODO, and the vehicular traffic stops at those, never LINK. The only "caveat" is that buses still ply the downtown transit tunnel. The buses, especially at rush hour, can impede train speeds. But not forever: when more LINK lines open, the buses will leave the tunnel entirely. Right now, from Westlake to UW/Husky the tunnel is rail only and the trains zip through quite fast.
__________________
Big Green Chauvanist

DanielFA, ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
Ginkgo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 6th, 2016, 08:05 AM   #2715
Ginkgo
Registered User
 
Ginkgo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,679
Likes (Received): 3574

Quote:
Originally Posted by SounderBruce View Post
Pictures and video from the Angle Lake Station opening on September 24.

And some video, from both sides:

The small lake briefly shown in the east direction video is not Angle Lake (which is larger and farther south) but rather Bow Lake. Early histories of Sea-Tac airport make abundant mention of Bow Lake as being the location of the new airport. Angle Lake itself is visible just north of the station, also looking to the east. Not shown in the west-facing video, but from the Angle Lake station platform itself is a great view of Puget Sound and for relatively close-in viewing of either landing or departing aircraft, depending on wind direction. And, from the train itself as depicted, are some great close-up airport tarmac views of parked planes at passenger boarding bridges. So there is actually a lot packed along this small length of extension.
__________________
Big Green Chauvanist

DanielFA, ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
Ginkgo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 30th, 2016, 04:07 AM   #2716
Tågälskaren
Tåg, för en bättre värld
 
Tågälskaren's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 8,374
Likes (Received): 754

As voters ponder Sound Transit 3, Central District light rail station takes shape

With a transformative light rail expansion measure now in voters’ hands, Sound Transit offered Central District residents an opportunity this week to see the fruits of passing the measure’s predecessor in 2008[...]
__________________
Tågälskaren no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 2nd, 2016, 01:38 AM   #2717
Tågälskaren
Tåg, för en bättre värld
 
Tågälskaren's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 8,374
Likes (Received): 754

Proposed light-rail expansion includes 8,560 park-and-ride stalls — but is it enough?

Sound Transit 3’s investment in parking is likely critical to some voters’ support to expand light rail deep into the suburbs — north to Everett, east to Issaquah and Redmond and south to Tacoma[...]
__________________

dimlys1994, ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
Tågälskaren no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 9th, 2016, 05:56 PM   #2718
Ginkgo
Registered User
 
Ginkgo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,679
Likes (Received): 3574

ST 3

So far, so good.

From the Seattle Times.

__________________
Big Green Chauvanist
Ginkgo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 9th, 2016, 06:31 PM   #2719
bighomey3000
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 69
Likes (Received): 90

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
So far, so good.

From the Seattle Times.

On a dark day, some silver lining in Seattle and Los Angeles' transit votes
__________________
bighomey3000 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2016, 06:26 AM   #2720
Manitopiaaa
Illuminati Leader
 
Manitopiaaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Alexandria, Nova, The Crown Commonwealth of Virginia (see sig)
Posts: 4,439
Likes (Received): 10381

A good infographic on what the vote could mean: http://projects.seattletimes.com/2016/st3-guide/

37 stations and 62 miles of light rail by 2041!
__________________


Atlanta (6,451,262) - Boston (8,176,376) - Chicago (9,882,634) - Cleveland (3,483,311) - Dallas (7,673,305) - Denver (3,470,235) - Detroit (5,318,653) - Houston (6,972,374)
Los Angeles (18,688,022) - Miami (6,723,472) - Minneapolis (3,894,820) - New York (23,689,255) - Orlando (3,202,927) - Philadelphia (7,179,357) - Phoenix (4,661,537)
Portland (3,160,488) - San Diego (3,317,749) - San Francisco (8,751,807) - Seattle (4,684,516) - Tampa (3,032,171) - Washington (9,665,892)

ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
Manitopiaaa no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
king county metro, seattle, sound transit, us light rail

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:20 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium