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Old January 28th, 2007, 06:09 AM   #261
mr.x
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Quote:
what do you mean by automated...??
Trains that are completely computer driven; no drivers.
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Old January 28th, 2007, 06:54 AM   #262
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Interestingly, Seattle predicts a ridership of 42,500 daily by 2020, where Vancouver's Canada line is predicted at 100,000 from opening day (2009) yet Vancouver has the shorter platforms.
i should add that the projected Canada Line ridership in 2020 is 140,000 to 150,000 daily.



Also, Not all Canada Line platforms are 40 metres:

40 metre platforms: Yaletown, King Edward, Langara-49th Avenue, Marine Drive, Bridgeport, Templeton, Sea Island Centre, Aberdeen, Lansdowne
50 metre platforms: Waterfront, Vancouver City Centre, Olympic Village, Broadway-City Hall, Oakridge-41st Avenue, Brighouse-Richmond City Centre, YVR


All 40 metre platforms are expandable to 50 metres, but even with 50 metres it is insufficient in the long term.
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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Old January 28th, 2007, 09:23 AM   #263
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i cant imagine 1000's of people ever on a platform at any given time

broadway is pretty big and even when its crowded in the rush there is a lot of room to move around
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Old January 28th, 2007, 12:01 PM   #264
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DMJM+Harris reports in the attached document that the rail-only and bus-only
capacity of the Tunnel is approximately equal under a comparable assumption of
some passengers standing comfortably without touching. The estimated capacity
with either buses or trains is 15,000 passengers per hour.
___________________________________________________
Lot of passengers there, this is for the downtown seattle transit tunnel. The 4 car trains are 380 feet long. I couldn't find actual information on how long the station platforms that are being built. All it says that the platforms are long enough to handle 3 and 4 car trains as ridership grows in the future. I think some of the space is taken between the front and rear of the trains where the driver cabs are which makes the train longer than it is.

Last edited by sequoias; January 28th, 2007 at 12:09 PM.
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Old January 28th, 2007, 07:01 PM   #265
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Seattle seems to always try to emulate either Portland or Vancouver while never trying to be 'different' or even looking beyond its region for inspiration. Why are we building something already outdated? Like Copenhagen built their 13-mile automated metro at the same cost as ours.
------------

I think platform length is irrelevant if the frequencies are short---especially if it's an automated line. I'm in Lyon now and we use 60m stations I think---long enough for 4-car trains; but we're currently only using 2-car trains on the busiest automatic line (250,000/day) for the past decade. Not sure why they haven't added extra cars. I think Canada Line will be fine with its 40m platforms.
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Old January 28th, 2007, 07:16 PM   #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alta-bc View Post
At least your system will have longer platforms. Vancouver's new Canada line will have 40m (131ft) platforms, compared to Seattle's 190ft (please correct me if I'm wrong)

Interestingly, Seattle predicts a ridership of 42,500 daily by 2020, where Vancouver's Canada line is predicted at 100,000 from opening day (2009) yet Vancouver has the shorter platforms. The main advantage Vancouver's system will have is that it is completely grade separated and automated as mentioned, and thus headways can be potentially reduced to 90 seconds.

Btw, how do the number crunchers come up with a number as specific as 42,500 riders per day by 2020? source: http://www.soundtransit.org/document.../FACT_Link.pdf
I think our platforms are 380ft/116m (for 4-car trains)...which, I think of as an 8-car train since each car is superlong and 'divided' in two if that makes sense. The 42,500 2020 prediction is for the initial link only. The UW extension would've been completely theoretically 4 years earlier and that's supposed to add 70K in 2030...so not sure what it'd be in 2020. I think they find the numbers by using data from bus routes and figuring in how many new transit riders will use light rail or something plus population growth around the stations....or that's how I'd figure it out!
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Old January 28th, 2007, 08:34 PM   #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kub86 View Post
I think our platforms are 380ft/116m (for 4-car trains)...which, I think of as an 8-car train since each car is superlong and 'divided' in two if that makes sense. The 42,500 2020 prediction is for the initial link only. The UW extension would've been completely theoretically 4 years earlier and that's supposed to add 70K in 2030...so not sure what it'd be in 2020. I think they find the numbers by using data from bus routes and figuring in how many new transit riders will use light rail or something plus population growth around the stations....or that's how I'd figure it out!
Ok, I wasn't sure if one articulated set was considered one car or two cars. So do you think those platforms are too long? What is the minimum potential headway?
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Old January 28th, 2007, 09:27 PM   #268
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I think platform length is irrelevant if the frequencies are short---especially if it's an automated line. I'm in Lyon now and we use 60m stations I think---long enough for 4-car trains; but we're currently only using 2-car trains on the busiest automatic line (250,000/day) for the past decade. Not sure why they haven't added extra cars. I think Canada Line will be fine with its 40m platforms.
The Canada Line trains are two-car trains that are 41 metres long (only the doors will fit the 40 metre platform). Each train has a capacity of 330 passengers, but we're assuming that the 10 metre platform expansion to 50 metres is to allow for a third 10-metre middle car between the existing two-car trains adding in capacity for 80 passengers; a 51 metre train.

It's a 19 km line with 16 stations, and with a projected ridership of 100,000 when it opens in 2009 and 150,000 in 2020. With just 20 trains, there will be a maximum peak frequency of 3-4 minutes along the mainline and 6-7 minutes along the two southern spur lines:



Is it similar in Lyon?
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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Old January 28th, 2007, 09:28 PM   #269
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The Seattle line has drivers right? That means with longer platforms, you can add capacity by having longer trains by building longer platforms instead of hiring more drivers....which is more expensive and complex.....which also means frequency won't likely change.
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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Old January 28th, 2007, 10:12 PM   #270
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I read somewhere that once the ridership grows there should be a minimum of 2 minute headways down from the opening of 6 minute headways in 2009 during peak hours. I can't imagine lot of trains passing the intersections in Sodo and Rainier Valley. Wouldn't that cause lot of congestion in car traffic when trains pass every 2 minutes? I wish it was grade seperated from traffic, though.
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Old January 28th, 2007, 10:26 PM   #271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sequoias View Post
I read somewhere that once the ridership grows there should be a minimum of 2 minute headways down from the opening of 6 minute headways in 2009 during peak hours. I can't imagine lot of trains passing the intersections in Sodo and Rainier Valley. Wouldn't that cause lot of congestion in car traffic when trains pass every 2 minutes? I wish it was grade seperated from traffic, though.
So Seattle can run 4 car trains (380ft) at a design capacity of 800 passengers total, every two minutes. Seattle is predicting 42,500 daily ridership by 2020 for the initial segment.

Vancouver can run 2 car trains (113ft) at a design capacity of 334 passengers total every 1 and a half minutes. Vancouver is predicting 140,000 to 150,000 daily ridership by 2020.

According to these numbers, either Seattle is totally overbuilding the LRT, or Vancouver is in for a system that is bursting at its seams from day one.
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Old January 28th, 2007, 10:26 PM   #272
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This was part of my original point.

Almost nowhere does LRT run more frequently than 5 minute headways. 3 minutes with a mostly grade-seperated line is probably the practical limit....

....I've got more on that later....

Nate
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Old January 28th, 2007, 11:12 PM   #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alta-bc View Post
So Seattle can run 4 car trains (380ft) at a design capacity of 800 passengers total, every two minutes. Seattle is predicting 42,500 daily ridership by 2020 for the initial segment.

Vancouver can run 2 car trains (113ft) at a design capacity of 334 passengers total every 1 and a half minutes. Vancouver is predicting 140,000 to 150,000 daily ridership by 2020.

According to these numbers, either Seattle is totally overbuilding the LRT, or Vancouver is in for a system that is bursting at its seams from day one.
I'd say that the Vancouver system is underbuilt. When the line opens, the maximum peak frequency with 20 trains is 3-4 minutes in Vancouver and 6-7 minutes in the two Richmond spurs.

The Canada Line system capacity is 15,000 pphpd.
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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Old January 28th, 2007, 11:40 PM   #274
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There will also be an at grade section in the SODO district from the international district station to just pas the SODO station at Lander street. This section will have three at grade crossings: S Royal Brougham Way, S Holgate St., and S Lander St.

Seattle's light rail will have drivers because driverless trains in mixed traffic environments violates U.S. law.

I'm going to attempt to sort out the ridership issues, but I'm by no means an expert:

The initial 14 mile segment will have an estimated 42,500 riders per day in 2020. This is only for the initial segment and not counting the small extension to the airport, if I'm reading the fact sheet correctly. Airport link is expected to add 3,000 riders per day at that station only in 2020. This isn't an estimate for system wide ridership increase with Airport Link, that I read. Still, we can add that to the initial number and get 45,500 riders.

University Link and North Link ridership projections are estimated in terms of 2030 numbers, so can't be added to our 2020 numbers. The University Link ridership will give us 70,000 boardings system wide in 2030. When North Link (to Northgate) is completed, that estimate jumps to 150,000 system wide in 2030. Please note the different usage of terms here: riders and boardings. I do not know if Sound Transit uses them interchangeably or not. I do know for sure that one boarding is only half a trip for a single passenger, because boardings only count the bodies moving through the doors of the trains. Therefore, boardings could theoretically be half of what ridership numbers are. Theoretically. It all depends on how ST uses the terms.

It's all very muddied by differing terms and year estimates. This is the data that is on the website as best as I can sort it out. I do not know what sort of meaning this has for platform length, but every platform can support a four car train (200 maximum capacity per train, so 800 passengers total). Sound Transit doesn't identify specifically what peak hours are (nor open and close times) so I cannot calculate the total potential capacity the line will have given car capacity. Furthermore, the specific methods of ridership calculation are not known to me, so the accuracy of any of these numbers in the first place is at question.

Also, from what I've read, the greater voltage allows substations to be placed further apart. This spatially accommodates Seattle's geography with as little impact as possible to property owners. That's one reason, at least.
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Old January 29th, 2007, 12:32 AM   #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x View Post
It's a 19 km line with 16 stations, and with a projected ridership of 100,000 when it opens in 2009 and 150,000 in 2020. With just 20 trains, there will be a maximum peak frequency of 3-4 minutes along the mainline and 6-7 minutes along the two southern spur lines:

Is it similar in Lyon?
Lyon is similar. The D Line is 13km with 15 stations and 36 trains of 2-cars each. So our overheads could be very short. It's just one line with no spurs.




Jaxom: I didn't know the airport was only going to add 3000 people. That's less than 4% of the 'airport population.' (30million/365)
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Old January 29th, 2007, 12:42 AM   #276
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Seattle's light rail will have drivers because driverless trains in mixed traffic environments violates U.S. law.
and violates common sense! I'm surprised they had to make a law against that.
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Old January 29th, 2007, 01:04 AM   #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kub86 View Post
Lyon is similar. The D Line is 13km with 15 stations and 36 trains of 2-cars each. So our overheads could be very short. It's just one line with no spurs.




Jaxom: I didn't know the airport was only going to add 3000 people. That's less than 4% of the 'airport population.' (30million/365)
That's a 60 metre platform right?
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"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
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Old January 29th, 2007, 01:51 AM   #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alta-bc View Post
and violates common sense! I'm surprised they had to make a law against that.
You just need to use one of those taxi drivers they had in Total Recall. The Johnny Cab one, not the mutant taxi driver on Mars.

Last edited by Plumber73; January 29th, 2007 at 01:58 AM.
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Old January 29th, 2007, 02:57 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by mr.x View Post
That's a 60 metre platform right?
Yeah, since we're only using half the platform. There's empty space in the front and behind the trains.
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Old January 29th, 2007, 09:47 PM   #280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alta-bc View Post
So Seattle can run 4 car trains (380ft) at a design capacity of 800 passengers total, every two minutes. Seattle is predicting 42,500 daily ridership by 2020 for the initial segment.

Vancouver can run 2 car trains (113ft) at a design capacity of 334 passengers total every 1 and a half minutes. Vancouver is predicting 140,000 to 150,000 daily ridership by 2020.

According to these numbers, either Seattle is totally overbuilding the LRT, or Vancouver is in for a system that is bursting at its seams from day one.
Sometimes the predictions could be wrong. They predicted 2,000 per weekday by 2010 on the Tacoma Link. They average nearly 3,000 per weekday.

The Las Vegas monorail predictions were overestimated. The weekdays got lower ridership than they expected and they raised the fares. Yikes!
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