daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Subways and Urban Transport

Subways and Urban Transport Metros, subways, light rail, trams, buses and other local transport systems



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old February 3rd, 2007, 08:26 PM   #301
getontrac
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mt. Vernon in Baltimore
Posts: 907
Likes (Received): 0

Okay,

Just to double check: the Rainer Valley section is surface but on an exclusive RR ROW? Not between a road, correct?

I think that section may have to be grade-seperated eventually, because I do not see how this system can handle much ridership growth without going over capacity in short-order. Heavy rail conversion would seem to be inevitable.

Are those E/W proposed extensions envisioned as grade-seperated as well?

Nate
getontrac no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old February 3rd, 2007, 10:10 PM   #302
sequoias
Registered User
 
sequoias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Midwest US
Posts: 1,612
Likes (Received): 14

Quote:
Originally Posted by getontrac View Post
Okay,

Just to double check: the Rainer Valley section is surface but on an exclusive RR ROW? Not between a road, correct?

I think that section may have to be grade-seperated eventually, because I do not see how this system can handle much ridership growth without going over capacity in short-order. Heavy rail conversion would seem to be inevitable.

Are those E/W proposed extensions envisioned as grade-seperated as well?

Nate
Yes, Rainier Valley light rail corridor is on the median of Martin Luther King Way with priority signals when the train is coming. San Francisco muni light rail has part of them on the median of the street I forget name. That's the nature of light rail to be on a median of streets in many cities worldwide.
sequoias no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 3rd, 2007, 10:48 PM   #303
guinessbeer55
Registered User
 
guinessbeer55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 687
Likes (Received): 13

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXPaul View Post


Cost- 11 Billion 2006 Dollars
Ridership- 300k Daily on Link

Voters will be asked to pass a half cent sales tax increase to pay for this next year. It's going along with a package of taxes for roads that if either ballot fails, they both fail. The roads ballot is worth 9 billion.
Where did you find this map??
guinessbeer55 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 4th, 2007, 02:38 AM   #304
getontrac
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mt. Vernon in Baltimore
Posts: 907
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by sequoias View Post
Yes, Rainier Valley light rail corridor is on the median of Martin Luther King Way with priority signals when the train is coming. San Francisco muni light rail has part of them on the median of the street I forget name. That's the nature of light rail to be on a median of streets in many cities worldwide.
So, it's in a median of a roadway? Not a pre-existing or otherwise exclusive ROW?

How wide is the median?

Either way, I think the system will be in trouble operationally if it truly expects the ridership density I hear posted.

Does anybody know was the anticipated average travel distance (ATD) is expected to be?

Nate
getontrac no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 4th, 2007, 02:44 AM   #305
BoulderGrad
Registered User
 
BoulderGrad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 5,510
Likes (Received): 1176

Quote:
Originally Posted by guinessbeer55 View Post
Where did you find this map??
http://www.soundtransit.org/x3951.xml
__________________
My safety word is "Keep Going."
BoulderGrad no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 4th, 2007, 02:48 AM   #306
BoulderGrad
Registered User
 
BoulderGrad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 5,510
Likes (Received): 1176

Quote:
Originally Posted by getontrac View Post
So, it's in a median of a roadway? Not a pre-existing or otherwise exclusive ROW?

How wide is the median?

Either way, I think the system will be in trouble operationally if it truly expects the ridership density I hear posted.

Does anybody know was the anticipated average travel distance (ATD) is expected to be?

Nate
Heres a bit on the testing as well: http://www.soundtransit.org/x2622.xml
__________________
My safety word is "Keep Going."
BoulderGrad no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 4th, 2007, 04:28 AM   #307
kub86
Twinkie
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Seattle/Bellevue
Posts: 733
Likes (Received): 10

So I saw the maps of the northgate extension...and I'm wondering: Why didn't they add a station at Greenlake?! Isn't it one of the most popular parks/neighborhoods in the city? If they just bent the tracks to the left a bit, they could've added a station there. It bothers me that ST only has commuter-related traffic on their minds.
kub86 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 4th, 2007, 07:04 AM   #308
sequoias
Registered User
 
sequoias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Midwest US
Posts: 1,612
Likes (Received): 14

Quote:
Originally Posted by getontrac View Post
So, it's in a median of a roadway? Not a pre-existing or otherwise exclusive ROW?

How wide is the median?

Either way, I think the system will be in trouble operationally if it truly expects the ridership density I hear posted.

Does anybody know was the anticipated average travel distance (ATD) is expected to be?

Nate
They're rebuilding the WHOLE Martin Luther king corridor from Rainier Ave intersection all the way to near the ramp to I-5. Nothing is existing left, it's a complete rebuild of the street.

They are stripping off the old roadway, widening the street with new streetlights, traffic signals, new roadway and a median for the light rail that's wide enough for the trains. They also have brand new sidewalks, too. They have recolated the utilities underground already. The south part of the roadway is complete torwards the elevated section going to the airport. For the most part, it's still under construction. I think most of it will be complete by 2008 and the trains will be having test runs on the light rail corridor.

The corridor has already had explosion of 3 major housing developments of Rainier Vista, Ohetto station and New Holly.

The elevated section is roughly around 6 months to a year left to be complete.

Last edited by sequoias; February 4th, 2007 at 07:16 AM.
sequoias no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 4th, 2007, 11:21 AM   #309
BoulderGrad
Registered User
 
BoulderGrad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 5,510
Likes (Received): 1176

Quote:
Originally Posted by kub86 View Post
So I saw the maps of the northgate extension...and I'm wondering: Why didn't they add a station at Greenlake?! Isn't it one of the most popular parks/neighborhoods in the city? If they just bent the tracks to the left a bit, they could've added a station there. It bothers me that ST only has commuter-related traffic on their minds.
The proposed stop is in Roosevelt on 65th street which is about 7 blocks from Greenlake, just on the other side of I-5. I can see the proposed sight for the stop from my apartment building
__________________
My safety word is "Keep Going."
BoulderGrad no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 5th, 2007, 12:39 AM   #310
PDXPaul
Registered User
 
PDXPaul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 656
Likes (Received): 0

It's in the median, but it's pretty seperated. I think they can travel 30mph like that. In Portland the interstate max(yellow line) is like that. It's elevated maybe a foot and a half on the concrete pedestal and there's sort of a fence seperating it. Same way on burnside in gresham.

I think they're proposing 4 car trains, the biggest the max can run is 3. Some systems only run 1 or 2 car trains. Just to get an idea of the scale we're doing here.

But then again if that whole system gets built out, we'd have 300k people on it, which is what the BART system carries daily.
PDXPaul no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 5th, 2007, 01:32 AM   #311
Jaxom92
Urban Studies Grad
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 203
Likes (Received): 0

There has been numerous revisions to MLK Way as previous posters have said. In addition to a complete rebuild of the street, namely widening, there are many cross streets that no longer go through MLK Way as well as numerous left-hand turn prohibitions from MLK Way itself. All these and the safety features such as signaled crossings, sidewalks, and fencing off the tracks allow for the trains to travel the posted speed limit on the road itself.

Indeed there are worries about the train frequency once the system ramps up to the full capacity that ST projects. One of the mitigating factors is that ST Link Light Rail can have four cars per train and thus not necessitate as short headways to accommodate peak time traffic. (As opposed to MAX in Portland where the trains are limited to two [or is it three?] cars due to the short block length in the downtown.)

It is these issues and the construction impacts from the rebuild of MLK Way (among other places) that kept light rail from become a reality quicker than it has. Seattle residents did not accept the individual cost incurred to their personal property and lively hoods as an acceptable cost to pay for improved public transportation. Discussions/arguments piled up on how, where, and when the light rail (if rail at all) should be built.
Jaxom92 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 7th, 2007, 01:17 AM   #312
Jaxom92
Urban Studies Grad
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 203
Likes (Received): 0

Sorry about the double post, but there's a bit of interesting news about the University Link extention as taken off the Sound Transit website. A lot of it is repeating info from other parts of the site, but that's okay:

President’s budget offers $10 million surprise for University Link light rail

February 06, 2007

Sound Transit today received a $10 million surprise in President George W. Bush’s proposed FY 2008 budget. Along with the expected $70 million for building the initial light rail segment, the budget also includes an unexpected $10 million in proposed funding for extending light rail to the University of Washington. The University Link Light Rail Transit (LRT) Extension is one of two projects nationwide listed in the president’s budget as “Proposed Full Funding Grant Agreements (FFGA).” Sound Transit intends to complete and submit its FFGA application for University Link later this year.

The proposed $10 million represents the first New Starts funding proposed by the federal government for University Link and sends a positive message about Sound Transit’s efforts to start building the extension as soon as 2008. University Link has received the Federal Transit Administration’s highest-possible rating in the competitive federal New Starts funding process. The $10 million would apply against the $750 million Full Funding Grant Sound Transit is seeking for University Link.

“I am pleased that the President's budget continues to make good on a commitment to support Sound Transit’s bold transportation goals to improve transit service in the region,” said Senator Patty Murray. “The President’s budget also signals a willingness to partner in proposals that will expand bus and rail transit systems in the future. I am glad that I was able to help support Sound Transit by highlighting these projects while touring our state with Transportation Secretary Mary Peters in November.”

“We can only wish surprises like this came every day,” said Sound Transit Board Chair and Pierce County Executive John Ladenburg. “This proposed funding shows the Bush administration is ready to continue helping our region. We’re fortunate to have the support of the administration and Senator Murray’s strong leadership in our congressional delegation.”

The $70 million for current light rail construction represents the next installment of Sound Transit’s $500 million full funding grant agreement for the initial segment. Sound Transit is on schedule to open light rail between downtown Seattle and Sea-Tac Airport in 2009.

When University Link is completed, Sound Transit will have built almost 19 miles of light rail between the University and the airport with the taxes that regional voters approved in 1996. Sound Transit recently received approval from the FTA to proceed to final design on the University Link project — another positive signal from “the other Washington.”

Located entirely underground, the 3.15-mile University Link extension will travel east in a tunnel to a Capitol Hill station located east of Broadway near Seattle Central Community College. From there the line continues north, crossing under the Lake Washington Ship Canal’s Montlake Cut to a station just west of Husky Stadium on the University of Washington campus.

The projected 2020 daily ridership for the 15.6-mile light rail segment that is currently under construction between downtown Seattle and the airport is 45,000. The University Link project alone is projected to increase the regional light rail system’s 2030 ridership to more than 114,000 a day. Further light rail extensions to the north, east and south are proposed as part of the November 2007 regional Roads & Transit ballot measure.

University Link will provide a reliable option for drivers and transit users who are stuck on I-5, a facility that operates over capacity for up to eight hours a day, with vehicle speeds running between 15 and 35 mph. Already, buses can run up to 30 minutes behind schedule due to congestion. The population of the corridor served by University Link is projected to go up 56 percent from 2000 to 2030, further increasing congestion.

Compared to bus service, University Link travel times will be almost three times faster. From the University District, it will take 9 minutes instead of 25 minutes to get downtown and 3 minutes instead of 22 minutes to get to Capitol Hill. The light rail system will also ease pressure on the region’s roadways.

Construction of the 13.9-mile Central Link light rail segment between downtown Seattle and Tukwila is now more than half finished, and last summer Sound Transit began construction of the 1.7-mile Airport Link extension. Both projects are on schedule to open in 2009. The 1.6-mile Tacoma Link light rail line opened in 2003, with ridership immediately exceeding 2010 projections.
Jaxom92 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 7th, 2007, 04:24 AM   #313
guinessbeer55
Registered User
 
guinessbeer55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 687
Likes (Received): 13

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxom92 View Post
Sorry about the double post, but there's a bit of interesting news about the University Link extention as taken off the Sound Transit website. A lot of it is repeating info from other parts of the site, but that's okay:

President’s budget offers $10 million surprise for University Link light rail

February 06, 2007

Sound Transit today received a $10 million surprise in President George W. Bush’s proposed FY 2008 budget. Along with the expected $70 million for building the initial light rail segment, the budget also includes an unexpected $10 million in proposed funding for extending light rail to the University of Washington. The University Link Light Rail Transit (LRT) Extension is one of two projects nationwide listed in the president’s budget as “Proposed Full Funding Grant Agreements (FFGA).” Sound Transit intends to complete and submit its FFGA application for University Link later this year.

The proposed $10 million represents the first New Starts funding proposed by the federal government for University Link and sends a positive message about Sound Transit’s efforts to start building the extension as soon as 2008. University Link has received the Federal Transit Administration’s highest-possible rating in the competitive federal New Starts funding process. The $10 million would apply against the $750 million Full Funding Grant Sound Transit is seeking for University Link.

“I am pleased that the President's budget continues to make good on a commitment to support Sound Transit’s bold transportation goals to improve transit service in the region,” said Senator Patty Murray. “The President’s budget also signals a willingness to partner in proposals that will expand bus and rail transit systems in the future. I am glad that I was able to help support Sound Transit by highlighting these projects while touring our state with Transportation Secretary Mary Peters in November.”

“We can only wish surprises like this came every day,” said Sound Transit Board Chair and Pierce County Executive John Ladenburg. “This proposed funding shows the Bush administration is ready to continue helping our region. We’re fortunate to have the support of the administration and Senator Murray’s strong leadership in our congressional delegation.”

The $70 million for current light rail construction represents the next installment of Sound Transit’s $500 million full funding grant agreement for the initial segment. Sound Transit is on schedule to open light rail between downtown Seattle and Sea-Tac Airport in 2009.

When University Link is completed, Sound Transit will have built almost 19 miles of light rail between the University and the airport with the taxes that regional voters approved in 1996. Sound Transit recently received approval from the FTA to proceed to final design on the University Link project — another positive signal from “the other Washington.”

Located entirely underground, the 3.15-mile University Link extension will travel east in a tunnel to a Capitol Hill station located east of Broadway near Seattle Central Community College. From there the line continues north, crossing under the Lake Washington Ship Canal’s Montlake Cut to a station just west of Husky Stadium on the University of Washington campus.

The projected 2020 daily ridership for the 15.6-mile light rail segment that is currently under construction between downtown Seattle and the airport is 45,000. The University Link project alone is projected to increase the regional light rail system’s 2030 ridership to more than 114,000 a day. Further light rail extensions to the north, east and south are proposed as part of the November 2007 regional Roads & Transit ballot measure.

University Link will provide a reliable option for drivers and transit users who are stuck on I-5, a facility that operates over capacity for up to eight hours a day, with vehicle speeds running between 15 and 35 mph. Already, buses can run up to 30 minutes behind schedule due to congestion. The population of the corridor served by University Link is projected to go up 56 percent from 2000 to 2030, further increasing congestion.

Compared to bus service, University Link travel times will be almost three times faster. From the University District, it will take 9 minutes instead of 25 minutes to get downtown and 3 minutes instead of 22 minutes to get to Capitol Hill. The light rail system will also ease pressure on the region’s roadways.

Construction of the 13.9-mile Central Link light rail segment between downtown Seattle and Tukwila is now more than half finished, and last summer Sound Transit began construction of the 1.7-mile Airport Link extension. Both projects are on schedule to open in 2009. The 1.6-mile Tacoma Link light rail line opened in 2003, with ridership immediately exceeding 2010 projections.

I think no matter what, Seattle will beat out all the other major cities for federal funding because we dont have any big transit system, so this money might be a regular thing everytime we start a light rail extention!!!
guinessbeer55 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 7th, 2007, 05:48 AM   #314
getontrac
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mt. Vernon in Baltimore
Posts: 907
Likes (Received): 0

Why didn't they simply elevate on MLK?

Nate
getontrac no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 7th, 2007, 06:18 AM   #315
Jaxom92
Urban Studies Grad
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 203
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by getontrac View Post
Why didn't they simply elevate on MLK?

Nate
It either has to do with money (as in surface is cheaper) or resident preference. It could be both too. I do know Rainier Valley --- well, heck, all of the Seattle neighborhoods light rail is running through --- put up a great fuss over having it in their neighborhood and causing disruptions. I would guess that they didn't want the shadow of the trackway. Furthermore, elevated structures have a physical closing off feel that a surface line does not. Sort of neighborhood spatial disruption.
Jaxom92 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 7th, 2007, 10:32 AM   #316
PDXPaul
Registered User
 
PDXPaul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 656
Likes (Received): 0

Rainier Valley wanted a tunnel. And only a tunnel. They aren't happy with the at grade stuff being built there, but there isn't much they can do about it. I think the rest of the region would have preferred aerial, but I'd imagine the neighborhood opposition would have been too much to handle.
PDXPaul no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 7th, 2007, 12:08 PM   #317
sequoias
Registered User
 
sequoias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Midwest US
Posts: 1,612
Likes (Received): 14

http://www.globaltelematics.com/pitf...rvalleymap.htm

Lots of info about train collosions predictions at Rainier Valley area. That's gonna be really nasty once it opens. Too bad it's not elevated or as a tunnel, it would be lot safer for sure. Houston has one of the worst safety records for their light rail, they get countless of crashes.

Please discuss.
sequoias no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 7th, 2007, 04:45 PM   #318
guinessbeer55
Registered User
 
guinessbeer55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 687
Likes (Received): 13

Quote:
Originally Posted by sequoias View Post
http://www.globaltelematics.com/pitf...rvalleymap.htm

Lots of info about train collosions predictions at Rainier Valley area. That's gonna be really nasty once it opens. Too bad it's not elevated or as a tunnel, it would be lot safer for sure. Houston has one of the worst safety records for their light rail, they get countless of crashes.

Please discuss.
i dont understand how its gonna be a bad area... as long as the people just stop at the gates... i mean they cant be that stupid...
guinessbeer55 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 7th, 2007, 06:27 PM   #319
kub86
Twinkie
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Seattle/Bellevue
Posts: 733
Likes (Received): 10

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXPaul View Post
Rainier Valley wanted a tunnel. And only a tunnel. They aren't happy with the at grade stuff being built there, but there isn't much they can do about it. I think the rest of the region would have preferred aerial, but I'd imagine the neighborhood opposition would have been too much to handle.
Actually, I think RV wanted at-grade to spur development and to have a more community-friendly transportation system---just cross the street to catch a train rather than going underground. ST respected this. The rest of the system preferred grade-separated. ...So i blame RV for the fact we're not fully grade-separated LOL. Mt. Baker station is elevated though. Currently, businesses aren't happy because construction is going on and they're losing money---same complaints when tacoma link was being built.

How gentrified do you think that area (Rainier Valley) will get after these stations are built? Are there any transport-oriented-devps being designed?
kub86 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 7th, 2007, 08:23 PM   #320
sequoias
Registered User
 
sequoias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Midwest US
Posts: 1,612
Likes (Received): 14

Quote:
Originally Posted by guinessbeer55 View Post
i dont understand how its gonna be a bad area... as long as the people just stop at the gates... i mean they cant be that stupid...
It says that there are no gates, only traffic signals. Drivers would race across the street last minute when the light is red and the train would hit the car at 35 miles per hour. That happened several times when drivers rammed into gates and they had to replace the gates, it happened in Minneapolis.
sequoias no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
king county metro, seattle, sound transit, us light rail

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 07:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium