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Old March 14th, 2007, 11:19 PM   #441
UrbanBen
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Originally Posted by BoulderGrad View Post
Maybe they should fast-track the university link and northgate link so that its coming online soon after the viaduct closes for construction?
Who's "they"? Nobody can afford to fast-track without state support, and that doesn't seem to be forthcoming.
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Old March 15th, 2007, 05:04 AM   #442
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Rapid Transit doesn't necessarily reduce congestion. It more likely puts a lid on it. As more people ride Link, the more induction of driving and economic develop could occur to refill the interstates and through roads back up.

It would certainly reduce traffic in a no growth scenario. Depending on "peak oil" issues and the like in the future, we may see growth rapidly decline.

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Old March 15th, 2007, 05:10 AM   #443
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Again, not TOO familiar with Seattle's monorail plans/system. I know it has the one line (no interim stops, correct?).

I would avoid monorail as a form of rapid transit. It really only seams to work in select scenarios, like where only one track is needed like a short shuttle system. "Track" maintenance is apparently expensive, and switching tracks is not nearly as efficient as steel rail switches and interlockings. IMO, if more rapid transit expansions are the future of Seattle, stick with steel rail (light, hopefully heavy at some point).

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Old March 15th, 2007, 05:47 AM   #444
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I think Light Rail project for Seattle is great! There are few things I am disappointed... One, they didn't put a station at Southcenter Mall which I think it should be added it would help reduce the traffic problem at that area and increase passengers on light rail trains. Two, they skipped a station at First Hill which I think it is really important to have a station there because that area has more than 22,000 workers and one of most dense neighborhoods in downtown Seattle area. I understand their reasons but still they can figure it out how to afford it. Three, it doesn't seen like it will go everywhere what most people wants to go to.

I'm still upset that Seattle's monorail project died. I honestly think it will do great for City of Seattle for two reasons. It would solve the problem on Alaskan Viduct so we will not need elevated or tunnel highway at all because monorail will cover it since it has same route as highway 99. Second, it will make people's lives easier by able to go anywhere they want to go without being stuck in the traffic. I really think City of Seattle should try again with monorail of course new leaders and find better price for this project.

Think about it if we have both light rail and monorail systems opened in 2009, most traffic issues in downtown Seattle area will be solved and reduce air pollution level.
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Old March 15th, 2007, 09:00 AM   #445
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I disagree... I think the monorails line was ridiculous... a line going from Ballard to West Seattle as a starter line wouldnt have served the city any good... Light rail(in the future hopefully heavy rail) is the way to go... and inner city streetcars serving the different neighborhoods of Seattle would be a bonus...
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Old March 15th, 2007, 09:30 AM   #446
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If you think so, please explain why do I always see traffic jams on Denny from Ballard and I-5 from West Seattle? Monorail would solve that problem for sure.
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Old March 15th, 2007, 07:35 PM   #447
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The monorail line would not completely solve the viaduct problem because a good portion of the traffic on the viaduct is through traffic not originating in downtown, West Seattle or Ballard nor having a destination in either of these locations. All this traffic would be pushed onto I-5 and surface streets and perhaps I-405 should an insufficient alternate be built (see the viaduct thread here:http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=427913). I don't necessarily disagree with the monorail, however. I do have problems with the way the project was handled, and as a result it has been unfortunately poisoned to the general population politically.

By the same logic, a light-rail line will not completely solve the traffic problem in general. When the system becomes more integrated with local bus lines and is built out more, then we might get a noticeable impact. As getontrac pointed out, a no-growth scenario is the only one where a reduction would be seen. In fact, given that another million people are expected in this region by about 2025, we'll more than likely see increased congestion on our roads despite all we've done with mass transit up to that point.

However, a no-build scenario will significantly boost this increase, so I want to be clear this isn't an argument against light-rail or other forms of mass transit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyAboutCities
If you think so, please explain why do I always see traffic jams on Denny from Ballard and I-5 from West Seattle? Monorail would solve that problem for sure.
Again, it will take some traffic off the streets, but won't take all the traffic away. With the tremendous growth pressure in this region, and despite mass transit, we are unlikely to see significant reduction in traffic. Mitigation of the growth, yes. Reduction, no. Furthermore, the destination of a single line will not coincide with everyone's desired destination. As such, I think it is a too simplistic and somewhat unrealistic statement to say something will "solve that problem for sure."
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Old March 15th, 2007, 07:54 PM   #448
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyAboutCities View Post
I think Light Rail project for Seattle is great! There are few things I am disappointed... One, they didn't put a station at Southcenter Mall which I think it should be added it would help reduce the traffic problem at that area and increase passengers on light rail trains. Two, they skipped a station at First Hill which I think it is really important to have a station there because that area has more than 22,000 workers and one of most dense neighborhoods in downtown Seattle area. I understand their reasons but still they can figure it out how to afford it. Three, it doesn't seen like it will go everywhere what most people wants to go to.

I'm still upset that Seattle's monorail project died. I honestly think it will do great for City of Seattle for two reasons. It would solve the problem on Alaskan Viduct so we will not need elevated or tunnel highway at all because monorail will cover it since it has same route as highway 99. Second, it will make people's lives easier by able to go anywhere they want to go without being stuck in the traffic. I really think City of Seattle should try again with monorail of course new leaders and find better price for this project.

Think about it if we have both light rail and monorail systems opened in 2009, most traffic issues in downtown Seattle area will be solved and reduce air pollution level.
On Southcenter: Go look at Google Maps. You'd have had to go south, then turn north again to get to the airport. Southcenter will be served in the 405 light rail corridor phase (probably phase 4) when Sound Transit builds from Lynnwood through Bothell, Kirkland, Renton, and Tukwila.

On First Hill: We would have lost the entire northern section of light rail if we had tried to build under First Hill. It's a 200 foot deep station in unstable clay soil; engineers said they'd have had to freeze the dirt the whole way down just to excavate. Again, you'd have had to turn south before going north to get there, too.
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Old March 15th, 2007, 08:33 PM   #449
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Also, the cost of going to first hill and dealing with the extremely difficult soil conditions would be considerable, and it wasn't a risk Sound Transit was willing to take. I can understand this decision because of the history of cost overruns at the beginning of the agency's history as well as the problems that plagued the now-defunct monorail project.

To elaborate on the Southcenter station, Sound Transit will more than likely be looking at an I-405 route from the Tukwilla station to Bellevue with a station at Southcenter Mall. This isn't in the plans for ST2, but the agency has designated the route as a possible high-capacity transit corridor. We could call this ST3. Unfortunately, it will be some time before this becomes a reality.
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Old March 15th, 2007, 08:58 PM   #450
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxom92 View Post
I don't necessarily disagree with the monorail, however. I do have problems with the way the project was handled, and as a result it has been unfortunately poisoned to the general population politically.
I agree completely with you about the way that monorail project handled. I am not happy about that. I honestly believe that monorail project could have another chance if City of Seattle re-structure the organization such as replace leaders and staff. Who knows if new people came along and make it happen for less and able to provide better route that will make most people around here more satisfied.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxom92 View Post
By the same logic, a light-rail line will not completely solve the traffic problem in general. When the system becomes more integrated with local bus lines and is built out more, then we might get a noticeable impact. As getontrac pointed out, a no-growth scenario is the only one where a reduction would be seen. In fact, given that another million people are expected in this region by about 2025, we'll more than likely see increased congestion on our roads despite all we've done with mass transit up to that point.
That is very true because it will not go everywhere people wants to go to. It could reduce I-5 freeway traffics some since it go almost same route as I-5 freeway.

I think City of Seattle should think about having public transit system long time ago before Seattle boom. I guess no one really think Seattle is going to be big city within future at their time. It happened to many cities across the nation before their ciites get bigger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxom92 View Post
However, a no-build scenario will significantly boost this increase, so I want to be clear this isn't an argument against light-rail or other forms of mass transit.
I am not arguing with anyone here. I just want to share my opinions and want to understand it. That's all. By the way, I am not against any public transit projects around here. These projects have my 100% support. I just expressed my concerns about these projects. I think some of it could get better if it designed more thoughtful and think about what people needs. That's all.
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Old March 15th, 2007, 09:03 PM   #451
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On Southcenter: Go look at Google Maps. You'd have had to go south, then turn north again to get to the airport. Southcenter will be served in the 405 light rail corridor phase (probably phase 4) when Sound Transit builds from Lynnwood through Bothell, Kirkland, Renton, and Tukwila.

On First Hill: We would have lost the entire northern section of light rail if we had tried to build under First Hill. It's a 200 foot deep station in unstable clay soil; engineers said they'd have had to freeze the dirt the whole way down just to excavate. Again, you'd have had to turn south before going north to get there, too.
Are you serious? I never heard anything about that before. Can you please give me the reference for possible phase four. BTW, I looked at google map a while ago, its very old. It was took pictures in around 2002 I think.

I completely understand about First Hill situation. I still think it is very important to have it included too. Last time I heard that they plan to add something to connect to First Hill to Westlake Center station. I haven't hear anything about it for a while.
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Old March 15th, 2007, 10:01 PM   #452
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyAboutCities View Post
Are you serious? I never heard anything about that before. Can you please give me the reference for possible phase four. BTW, I looked at google map a while ago, its very old. It was took pictures in around 2002 I think.

I completely understand about First Hill situation. I still think it is very important to have it included too. Last time I heard that they plan to add something to connect to First Hill to Westlake Center station. I haven't hear anything about it for a while.
The reason I'm suggesting you look at Google Maps is to get an idea of how far off course light rail would have to go to get to Southcenter. The station locations are all on Sound Transit's web site.

The Sound Transit 2 draft package includes a streetcar to connect Broadway and John streets (Capitol Hill Station) with 5th and Jackson streets (International District Station) via First Hill. It doesn't sound like you've looked at that package - have a look!

It's project N07a on this page: http://soundtransit.org/x3951.xml
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Old March 16th, 2007, 01:10 AM   #453
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Quote:
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The reason I'm suggesting you look at Google Maps is to get an idea of how far off course light rail would have to go to get to Southcenter. The station locations are all on Sound Transit's web site.

The Sound Transit 2 draft package includes a streetcar to connect Broadway and John streets (Capitol Hill Station) with 5th and Jackson streets (International District Station) via First Hill. It doesn't sound like you've looked at that package - have a look!

It's project N07a on this page: http://soundtransit.org/x3951.xml
I understand now. Thanks for being patience with me. Hehe!

I looked at Sound Transit 2 draft package a while ago but I didn't see a streetcar to connect Broadway and John streets with 5th and Jackson street at that time. I think they just added it a while ago. I tried to find the details on that streetcar on that website. It is seem like they haven't put the details about it yet. I think adding third streetcar is great news!
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Old March 16th, 2007, 02:14 AM   #454
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I understand now. Thanks for being patience with me. Hehe!

I looked at Sound Transit 2 draft package a while ago but I didn't see a streetcar to connect Broadway and John streets with 5th and Jackson street at that time. I think they just added it a while ago. I tried to find the details on that streetcar on that website. It is seem like they haven't put the details about it yet. I think adding third streetcar is great news!
Heh! Yeah, me too. Connecting them all will be pretty easy as we add more.
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Old March 16th, 2007, 02:34 AM   #455
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If ST2 is passed in November, environmental impact statements will be pursued for every part of the approved extensions/projects, including the streetcar, so the details will probably be released at that time.

And I didn't think you were arguing about mass transit and the like, Crazy, just trying to make sure everything is clear.

Here are some news releases from today...

Sound Transit Begins Intensive Light Rail Testing:
http://www.soundtransit.org/x4961.xml

Sound Transit Wins Federal Transit Administration Award:
http://www.soundtransit.org/x5048.xml
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Last edited by Jaxom92; March 16th, 2007 at 02:56 AM. Reason: Adding information.
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Old March 16th, 2007, 03:14 AM   #456
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I will vote yes on that ballot. I support public transit system.

I have some concerns about light rail system. It said it will be very quiet. I know it is relief for many people who lives near the light rail route will not have to hear the trains all the time. I'm more concerned about the safety. I think the trains should add some sounds to warn people that trains are coming. Also I think the trains should add flashers for the Deaf so they can see that trains are coming. Also it is not just for the Deaf, its can help for people who are addicted to ipod and unable to hear the trains coming... They can see the flashers.
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Old March 16th, 2007, 03:25 AM   #457
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyAboutCities View Post
I will vote yes on that ballot. I support public transit system.

I have some concerns about light rail system. It said it will be very quiet. I know it is relief for many people who lives near the light rail route will not have to hear the trains all the time. I'm more concerned about the safety. I think the trains should add some sounds to warn people that trains are coming. Also I think the trains should add flashers for the Deaf so they can see that trains are coming. Also it is not just for the Deaf, its can help for people who are addicted to ipod and unable to hear the trains coming... They can see the flashers.
WHY IS AMERICA SO SCARED OF EVERYTHING!!!!!! Im sorry but in Europe people pay attention to their surroundings its too damn bad if they get hit by a train they should have been paying attention... Sorry its just my opinion

And Im definatly gonna vote too
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Old March 16th, 2007, 03:33 AM   #458
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WHY IS AMERICA SO SCARED OF EVERYTHING!!!!!! Im sorry but in Europe people pay attention to their surroundings its too damn bad if they get hit by a train they should have been paying attention... Sorry its just my opinion

And Im definatly gonna vote too
I agree. Not every American will pay attention to anything which is why it should add something that will alert them. Do not forget about blind/deaf-blind people too. Seattle is known as largest deaf-blind community in the nation. I think it should provides special kind of alert system for that kind of people.
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Old March 16th, 2007, 03:52 AM   #459
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanBen View Post
...
The Sound Transit 2 draft package includes a streetcar to connect Broadway and John streets (Capitol Hill Station) with 5th and Jackson streets (International District Station) via First Hill. It doesn't sound like you've looked at that package - have a look!

It's project N07a on this page: http://soundtransit.org/x3951.xml
I just looked at the webpage at the above link. The line item for the Capitol Hill project is a link to a PDF file titled "Enhanced Transit: Streetcar or Bus Connection between Downtown Seattle and Capitol Hill Station via First Hill (John Street) (Seattle)". The PDF file can be found at the following link:

http://soundtransit.org/Documents/pd...st_Hill_DP.pdf

The document provides the following numbers for the streetcar and bus options:

Average Weekday Ridership
Streetcar: 3,000 - 3,500
Bus: 2,000

Capital Cost (Millions)
Streetcar: $129.7 - $149.2
Bus: $13.4 - $15.4

Annual Operating Cost (Millions)
Streetcar: $5.2
Bus: $3.5
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Old March 16th, 2007, 04:09 AM   #460
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Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
I just looked at the webpage at the above link. The line item for the Capitol Hill project is a link to a PDF file titled "Enhanced Transit: Streetcar or Bus Connection between Downtown Seattle and Capitol Hill Station via First Hill (John Street) (Seattle)". The PDF file can be found at the following link:

http://soundtransit.org/Documents/pd...st_Hill_DP.pdf

The document provides the following numbers for the streetcar and bus options:

Average Weekday Ridership
Streetcar: 3,000 - 3,500
Bus: 2,000

Capital Cost (Millions)
Streetcar: $129.7 - $149.2
Bus: $13.4 - $15.4

Annual Operating Cost (Millions)
Streetcar: $5.2
Bus: $3.5
Indeed. If only we were a country that charged for emissions, eh?
As it stands, the ridership certainly justifies the increased operating cost - which is higher only because a base would be needed for the streetcars (they cost, per vehicle, less to maintain than buses).

Note that the buses are really in there just as any agency must consider more than one alternative - that's not something that they're really going to do.
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