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Old March 22nd, 2007, 04:18 AM   #501
kub86
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Hey that's what I said! Read my post on February 8th page 9 (#190). I posted a pic of the baby (cuter) version of that...

Lyon has some pretty sleek trolleys and trams. I'm lovin it
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Old March 22nd, 2007, 05:22 AM   #502
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Seattle already has quite a network of the ETBs. If we were to go that route, it would probably just be another Metro route, since Metro is the agency that runs all the trolley buses in Seattle.
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Old March 22nd, 2007, 05:35 AM   #503
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Bottom line...

The details of all this are fascinating, but bottom line, I'm so glad this is finally coming to be reality (albeit 20 years late). Seattle's Metro Bus system is one of the finest in the country, but light rail will be "light" years ahead with the ability to move past congested traffic. I would vote for any and all extensions, the most important being north of UW to Northgate and beyond.
I really wondered if I would ever see the day this light rail system would be up and running, but now I can actually see the light at the end of the (excuse the pun) tunnel! In Seattle, in can be a long wait sometimes, but at the end it is a beautiful thing.
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Old March 22nd, 2007, 08:47 AM   #504
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxom92 View Post
Seattle already has quite a network of the ETBs. If we were to go that route, it would probably just be another Metro route, since Metro is the agency that runs all the trolley buses in Seattle.
just paint it in ST colors and give it a 5XX route number, all of sound transits buses and routes are run by either pierce transit, community transit or King County Metro, like ST route 550 used to be KCM route 226.
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Old March 22nd, 2007, 10:57 PM   #505
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Incidentally, the buses are a different style. Sound Transit uses coach style buses... like greyhound and such, whereas Metro and the rest of the county agencies just have the traditional "city bus". It's just semantics.

I'm sure the bus lines will be reworked when the streetcar is in operation, ST and Metro.

And you're quite right Pwalker about Seattle finally getting rapid transit online. It's been too long coming and the politics of Seattle are insanely depressing at times.
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 07:55 AM   #506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxom92 View Post
Incidentally, the buses are a different style. Sound Transit uses coach style buses... like greyhound and such, whereas Metro and the rest of the county agencies just have the traditional "city bus". It's just semantics.

I'm sure the bus lines will be reworked when the streetcar is in operation, ST and Metro.

And you're quite right Pwalker about Seattle finally getting rapid transit online. It's been too long coming and the politics of Seattle are insanely depressing at times.
yes most do have high back seats and luggage racks reading lights and air-con.

yes sound transit is different than Metro or local buses, but you can hardly compare them to greyhound.

if you look at Sound Transit's Fleet

K-Ran by Metro
P-Ran by Pierce Transit
C-Ran by Community Transit

(K)New Flyer DE60LF
(K/C)New Flyer D60LF
(K)New Flyer DE40LF
(P)New Flyer C40LF
(P)MCI D4500
(K/C/P)Gillig Phantom
(P)Orion V

Retired:
(K)Breda DuoBues

you see the only bus that is close it the MCI the others are bus type buses. they were added on to KCM orders. they orders the Gilligs with KCM and the 60 feet New Flyers, the Orions were borrowed from Pierce transit, the Breda were borrowed from KCM and the 40 foot flyers were added to the Pierce transit order.
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 09:17 AM   #507
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You clearly know more about the buses then I do. I heard the comparison to greyhound from someone else. I assumed it was a reliable comparison. I stand corrected on that issue as well as the rest of the bus type details.
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 11:36 PM   #508
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A couple things of interest... maybe. First is a follow up on the East Link Workshops information:

http://www.soundtransit.org/x5049.xml

Second is another photo. It isn't directly related to the light rail project, however. The capacity of the King Street station in Seattle is being expanded for future Sounder and Amtrak trains. The picture is of new tracks being laid under the Safeco Field roof.



I'm personally excited for the reverse commute train because it might be advantageous to me commuting to Tacoma for school on a daily basis. If I have classes that keep me at school all day, it would work nicely.
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 11:43 PM   #509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aznichiro115 View Post
yes most do have high back seats and luggage racks reading lights and air-con.

yes sound transit is different than Metro or local buses, but you can hardly compare them to greyhound.

if you look at Sound Transit's Fleet

K-Ran by Metro
P-Ran by Pierce Transit
C-Ran by Community Transit

(K)New Flyer DE60LF
(K/C)New Flyer D60LF
(K)New Flyer DE40LF
(P)New Flyer C40LF
(P)MCI D4500
(K/C/P)Gillig Phantom
(P)Orion V

Retired:
(K)Breda DuoBues

you see the only bus that is close it the MCI the others are bus type buses. they were added on to KCM orders. they orders the Gilligs with KCM and the 60 feet New Flyers, the Orions were borrowed from Pierce transit, the Breda were borrowed from KCM and the 40 foot flyers were added to the Pierce transit order.

The Breda Duobuses are not retired. They were converted to permanent trolley bus use, they removed the diesel engine and rebuilt the electronics, upgraded the lights, new seats, new paint, LED desination signs, etc. IT looks MUCH better than the old version of the Breda that were used for the seattle bus tunnel and on the highway. The DE60LF replaced the Breda Duobuses. The Breda are replacing many of the old M.A.N. articulated trolley buses.

(Sorry for the off point since it's not related to Sound Transit)
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Old March 24th, 2007, 09:17 AM   #510
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sequoias View Post
The Breda Duobuses are not retired. They were converted to permanent trolley bus use, they removed the diesel engine and rebuilt the electronics, upgraded the lights, new seats, new paint, LED desination signs, etc. IT looks MUCH better than the old version of the Breda that were used for the seattle bus tunnel and on the highway. The DE60LF replaced the Breda Duobuses. The Breda are replacing many of the old M.A.N. articulated trolley buses.

(Sorry for the off point since it's not related to Sound Transit)
well retired from the ST fleet anyways.

i have yet to have a chance to ride the referbished Bredas
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Old March 24th, 2007, 06:46 PM   #511
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Would Sound Transit actually operate the First Hill Streetcar/BRT line?

King County Metro operated the George Benson Waterfront Streetcar. I believe the plan is for King County Metro to operate the South Lake Union Streetcar.

Sound Transit is supposed to be the regional transit agency. The other transit agencies are supposed to serve the local areas. There do seem to be some exceptions. The Tacoma Link streetcars are painted in Sound Transit colors.
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Old March 24th, 2007, 06:50 PM   #512
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Seattle P-I Columnist: No-no vote sets stage for 'Big One'

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/connel...55_joel16.html

Last updated March 15, 2007 10:03 p.m. PT

No-no vote sets stage for 'Big One'

By JOEL CONNELLY
P-I COLUMNIST

The no-no Alaskan Way Viaduct advisory verdict by Seattle voters was a Nisqually Quake-like warm-up for a bigger tremor at which we may soon find ourselves in the epicenter.

The "Big One" will very likely come this fall, when voters in four central Puget Sound counties are asked to fork up $15 billion or so for highways and Sound Transit light rail projects.

"We are headed for a train wreck in November," said John Stanton, co-founder of Western Wireless and a key player in the 2005 campaign that turned back Initiative 912 and sustained a three-phase, 9.5-cents a gallon gas tax increase.

The political class seems to be pulling out stops to increase chances of road kill at the polls.

A quartet of ruling Democrats -- Chris Gregoire, Greg Nickels, Frank Chopp and Ron Sims -- tussled with one another on the viaduct. Mayor Nickels claimed victory even though his tunnel vision captured just 31 percent of the vote.

As Sound Transit runs big ads and holds public workshops on its light rail plans, the agency lobbies backstage in Olympia to block legislation that would consolidate transportation projects under an elected body.

"The bill starts with the flawed premise that the current system is chaotic and devoid of coordination," Pierce County Executive John Ladenburg wrote to state senators.

Has this man been to Seattle lately?

Ladenburg listed the empires of which he is lord. He is chairman of the Puget Sound Regional Council, chairman of the Sound Transit board, and vice chairman of Pierce Transit. "I see examples of successful interagency cooperation daily," he wrote.

Have we seen that cooperation on the viaduct? Is everybody aligned on how to deal with the aging, overcrowded and earthquake- threatened state Route 520, the Evergreen Point Bridge?

Is there an accord on Interstate 405 upgrades? Do we agree on how to get light rail across Lake Washington?

The legislation, SB 5803, would create a Regional Transportation Commission, with eight members elected from eight districts, and one member each appointed by the King, Pierce and Snohomish County executives.

Sound Transit and the Regional Transportation Investment District (RTID) -- architects of this fall's likely train wreck -- would keep their independent taxing authority. But the regional commission would control and direct projects funding.

The advantages of this bill, sponsored by state Sen. Ed Murray, D-Seattle, are multifold.

Voters would be given hiring and firing power.

Sound Transit went through chaos early in the decade. Who got the ax? When he became chairman, King County Executive Ron Sims booted out then-County Councilman Rob McKenna, one board member who dared ask critical questions.

A process for planning and decision-making would be set up with a single, accountable regional body.

The current situation is akin to a bureaucratic Dr. Octavius, the crazed "Spiderman 2" villain who had found long snakelike artificial arms -- in this case reaching into our wallets.

Six separate agencies offer bus service in our local environs: Sound Transit, Metro, Community Transit in Snohomish County, Pierce Transit, Kitsap Transit and Everett Transit.

Above all, proposed transit systems would have to be justified as the best way for getting people from place to place.

Backers of light rail would have to give proof of benefits to match its sky-high cost. They'd have to show suitability to the Eastside. A Ron Sims vision speech won't cut it.

The commission could consider fast, predictable bus service as an alternative. It could ask salient, politically incorrect questions: What about diverting transit dollars to the vitally necessary upgrade of state Route 520?

The anti-912 campaign surprised even its architects by winning. The anti-tax measure made the ballot with more than 400,000 signatures.

But the state's voters showed us a thing or two. They don't hate government, but simply expect it to work and want to hold its agencies accountable.

Basic questions need answers:

If our rulers demand more taxes, what will be the benefit?

How will benefits be shared?

If highfalutin plans go haywire, how do we fire the architects?

The RTID-Sound Transit proposal is an enormous chunk of change to ask from a surly electorate. A four-county area will be asked to pay a $15 billion price tag, nearly twice the statewide package approved in 2005.

Even when spread out to 1.2 million households, in Stanton's words, "The amount is staggering."

A poll done in early winter by Davis-Hibbitts of Portland showed the regional transit package starting out in a deep hole.

It's gotten deeper. The Eastside is weary of Seattle's divisions, self-absorption and those who see transportation as a vehicle for social engineering.

Other population centers are moving forward: The keys appear to be one regional transit agency, one board of directors and one overall plan.

The San Diego Association of Governments persuaded voters to pass a $14 billion transportation package.

The B.C. government plans to have TransLink extend from Pemberton, north of Whistler, all the way to Hope at the east end of the Fraser River Valley.

Our politicians and planners can dream big dreams. If bucks go everywhere, while the buck stops nowhere, voters will hand them their heads.

P-I columnist Joel Connelly can be reached at 206-448-8160 or [email protected].
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Old March 24th, 2007, 10:28 PM   #513
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I'll admit that a directly elected regional body has its advantages. We can clearly see that in Portland, for those who are familiar with the history there. However, now that Sound Transit has things on track, I don't think mudding the waters with another agency trying to learn the ropes is benificial at this point. Something like consolidating the four-county bus service proivders and Sound Transit could be beneficial. They all have transit expertise and wouldn't be another level of government. For a country that is so skeptical of government, we sure like lots of them.

The case of the viaduct disagreements is another manifestation of the Seattle political nonsense that has plagued the city for decades. Outside of the city, there seems to be good cooperation between agencies. The whole vote issue was handled with heavy hands on both the city and the state's part. Gregoire's insistence on a vote before the end of April just kept anybody from exploring funding options in each plan completely. It became a mess because of the expidited time table. The viaduct is for another topic however, so back to light rail.

I don't think that 15 billion is as large a figure as this column is making it. Yeah, it's a lot of money, but think about the backlog of transportation projects that are needed in order to accommodate our increasing population not to mention our existing population. Transportation infrastructure is an expensive industry for reasons more than politics and governmental money management.

I don't think that the November election will be as big of a bomb as this fellow thinks. Yeah, Seattle and the viaduct are a nightmare, but there is greater political support within the various agencies and among the general public for the RTID and ST proposal than the viaduct.
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Old March 28th, 2007, 01:05 AM   #514
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There seems to be another opinion out there that agrees with what I said above. This piece appeared in the opinion section today in the Seattle Times.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...392_ben27.html
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Old March 28th, 2007, 03:44 AM   #515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxom92 View Post
There seems to be another opinion out there that agrees with what I said above. This piece appeared in the opinion section today in the Seattle Times.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...392_ben27.html
Is it possible that UrbanBen of this forum is Ben Schiendelman of the above Seattle Times column?
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Old March 28th, 2007, 04:11 AM   #516
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Not excited about train graphics

While I am excited that this project is finally coming together, I'm not excited about the graphics on the trains. (Not the most important factor, and probably downright trivial, but marketing counts!) I'd like to see some bold colors such as used on the Metro busses. Just an opinion...
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Old March 28th, 2007, 06:13 AM   #517
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Well, the graphics could be worse, so I'm not complaining. I actually like the wave design. Then again, I like blue so...

I was thinking the same thing, greg_christine, but didn't voice my suspicions. Soon as I ran across the author I almost spit out my pasta. Could it be? I've never felt... knowledgeable enough to write a column for a paper, especially one as widely read as the Seattle Times. Following Sound Transit is currently just a "hobby" for me, though I do eventually want to get into transportation planning.

So, UrbanBen... are you one and the same as Ben Schiendelman?
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Old March 28th, 2007, 05:13 PM   #518
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Quote:
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While I am excited that this project is finally coming together, I'm not excited about the graphics on the trains. (Not the most important factor, and probably downright trivial, but marketing counts!) I'd like to see some bold colors such as used on the Metro busses. Just an opinion...
Haha, someone finally agrees with me. That wave design is so tacky. Reminds me of the cheesy branding that all the other transportation companies created in the '90s around America have...so nouveau suburban looking. Why couldn't ST just have a simple, yet bold, two toned blue/white color scheme? Why the wave?!
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Old March 28th, 2007, 07:20 PM   #519
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Ride the wave, man, ride the wave!
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Old March 29th, 2007, 01:44 AM   #520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxom92 View Post
There seems to be another opinion out there that agrees with what I said above. This piece appeared in the opinion section today in the Seattle Times.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...392_ben27.html
The views expressed in Mr. Schiendelman's guest column in the Seattle Times have been echoed by Sound Transit's leadership in an article in today's Seattle Post-Intelligencer:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/transp...60_rtid28.html
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