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Old March 29th, 2007, 08:27 AM   #521
Jaxom92
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I'm a big proponent of regionalism, but what we've done with the creation of RTID and the partnership with ST to put a package to voters this fall is precisely that. Regionalism. It's a less "strong" form of it, but I don't think it's any less effective.

Furthermore, the timing on this is just way off. It'll totally jeopardize the package, or at least has the potential. Sound Transit's agreement with these sentiments reflects their initial problems due in good part to inexperience in running a regional transit agency. Throwing together a new one has the good chance of repeating history. Not a good idea, especially now that we finally, finally are working towards dealing with our metropolitan regional transportation problems.

Basically, our representatives backing this bill are shortsighted. :/

Edit: If the November proposal is voted down I'll be extremely disappointed. Extremely.
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Old March 29th, 2007, 04:48 PM   #522
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If its voted down... then there is just something wrong with the people here in the Seattle area... Ill be very upset too...
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Old March 29th, 2007, 06:18 PM   #523
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Well, the viaduct fiasco already proves there's something wrong with people in Seattle (or maybe just the politicians???) But seriously, yes. I apologize in advance for the rant I will stoop to posting here should the package be turned down.
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Old March 29th, 2007, 07:07 PM   #524
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I doubt it'll get voted down. I keep hearing that there's wide, strong support for the package, so I'll actually be *very* surprised if it doesn't pass.
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Old March 30th, 2007, 12:14 AM   #525
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I hope you're right, kub. But where I've been hearing that "we have great support" is from the RTID and Sound Transit folks. They'd be ****ish to be wishy washy about their own support backbone.

I do agree with you, though. Judging by my amateur observations of the recent increases in taxes specifically for transportation funding, I think this ******** has a good chance to succeed. However, the mess with the viaduct does throw in an unknown. I personally believe that is more a politician's mess and a little bit of Seattle residents' normal bickering. But people also won't tax themselves to kingdom come no matter how bad the congestion problem is.

Again, I think the pros out weigh the cons in that public opinion is going to support this ******** more than turn it down, but one can never be too sure. Finger's crossed.
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Old March 30th, 2007, 12:58 AM   #526
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OK SO... EVERYONE ON THIS THREAD VOTE YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

new topic:
does anyone have any of their own pics or videos that theyve taken of the trains testing?
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Old March 30th, 2007, 07:11 PM   #527
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Er, one more point...

Has there been any anti-transit groups floating around? I haven't heard of any so far...either the papers ignore them or everybody is really just gung ho about S2 and wants it in their town. Which makes me happy!


^And with regards to photos...does anyone have some interior shots? I'm a bit disappointed by what I see so far; the interior looks very bus-like...
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Old March 31st, 2007, 10:32 AM   #528
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Unfortunately, it's rather out of my way to go up into Seattle proper to watch the testing and what have you. But I'll definitely have pictures, and hopefully video when the line opens. But that's two years away so it doesn't help in the mean time.
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Old March 31st, 2007, 08:22 PM   #529
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kub86 View Post
Er, one more point...

Has there been any anti-transit groups floating around? I haven't heard of any so far...either the papers ignore them or everybody is really just gung ho about S2 and wants it in their town. Which makes me happy!


^And with regards to photos...does anyone have some interior shots? I'm a bit disappointed by what I see so far; the interior looks very bus-like...
Few weeks ago, I read few opinion articles on Seattle Times Newspaper that some people who lives in Renton, Bellevue and Kirkland doesn't think we really need it so we can get more buses instead of light rail system to save money and provide more accessiable for about everyone in the city, suburbs and rural areas. Obviously they're against light rail system but they do support bus system more than any type of transit system.

Also a while ago, I read really interesting article on Seattle Time Newspaper about light rail system. He compared transit system in Hong Kong... He went there and it has public transit system and he was shocked to see that subway/rapid transit system are only used for tourists not commuters. All commuters in Hong Kong uses its bus system more than on any trains. He afraid that it could happen same thing for Seattle and The Puget Sound. I think it is really interesting perceptive but it is still don't convince me to go against it because I am still feeling really strong about we need light rail, streetcars, monorails, improvement on ferry system and bus system to improve the access in Seattle metro area.
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Old April 1st, 2007, 10:16 AM   #530
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Portland's light rail has been around since 1989 an it still has commuters as the number one ridership demographic to this day. I don't think it'll be a problem here.
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Old April 4th, 2007, 05:33 AM   #531
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did you guys hear that if st2 is voted yes, there will be enough money to get light rail all the way to the tacoma dome!!!!!! this mean that tacoma link will be connected to central link!!! pretty cool news...
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Old April 4th, 2007, 12:35 PM   #532
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guinessbeer55 View Post
did you guys hear that if st2 is voted yes, there will be enough money to get light rail all the way to the tacoma dome!!!!!! this mean that tacoma link will be connected to central link!!! pretty cool news...
Connected but not part of the same line. The two won't be interchangeable.
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Old April 4th, 2007, 09:03 PM   #533
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Yes I heard that. I'm happy about that. I hope it will reduce traffic problems on I-5 once Tacoma-Seattle connected.

I think freeways should be only for travelers, delivery trucks, and some people who are really in hurry that have to drive over 80mph. The rest of Seattle/Puget Sound people should use public transit to get around the city without having to use their vehicles. I doubt it will happen anyway.
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Old April 5th, 2007, 12:09 AM   #534
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Not with a ton more public transportation infrastructure, not to mention decent bus travel times and destinations within a quarter mile of where every person wants to go. Not only is it unlikely culturally, but also unlikely financially.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guinessbeer55
did you guys hear that if st2 is voted yes, there will be enough money to get light rail all the way to the tacoma dome!!!!!! this mean that tacoma link will be connected to central link!!! pretty cool news...
I did hear that. However, from the Port of Tacoma Rd. to the Tacoma Dome, the line will only be built if there's enough money left over. For sure to the Port of Tacoma Rd... This would be unfortunate if it should happen because the distance between the Tacoma Dome and the Port of Tacoma Rd. is more than most people are willing to walk. I would imagine there'd be bus service, but having to make two transfers instead of one isn't the best option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongo8780
Connected but not part of the same line. The two won't be interchangeable.
Indeed, though I don't see this as a big problem. If the route is what I think it is, there will be merely one block to walk between the last Tacoma Link station and the larger Central Link station at the Tacoma Dome. Depending on where the station is located, you can see each station from the other one.

I initially bemoaned the short sightedness of ST on building Tacoma Link with a different/non-compatible system as they were Central Link. However, once riding Tacoma Link, I realize the smaller system works better on the surface streets of Tacoma. Furthermore, a four-car consist that Central Link will eventually have would require more space within downtown that really isn't there.

Therefore, I believe a short and easy transfer (no bus numbers to remember) will not be all that bad.
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Old April 5th, 2007, 01:29 AM   #535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxom92 View Post
I did hear that. However, from the Port of Tacoma Rd. to the Tacoma Dome, the line will only be built if there's enough money left over. For sure to the Port of Tacoma Rd... This would be unfortunate if it should happen because the distance between the Tacoma Dome and the Port of Tacoma Rd. is more than most people are willing to walk. I would imagine there'd be bus service, but having to make two transfers instead of one isn't the best option.
Everything's being designed with further extension in mind. If they only make it to Port of Tacoma Rd., it'd be quite easy for the local jurisdiction to fund the remainder, or for ST to go back with a ballot measure to complete that line. The same is the case in the north - with plans only to go to Lynnwood and do ROW preservation to Everett, or east, where it'll get to Microsoft but not to downtown Redmond. You can finish it later.
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Old April 5th, 2007, 06:54 AM   #536
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Aye. But, finishing later isn't as good as finishing at the same time. That was the idea for the Airport (and still is going to be that way: 6 months different) but everybody was outraged about the" railroad to nowhere." So ST took a harder look and came up with a plan to get it to the airport with only 6 months of shuttle service.

I hope the same thing happens in this case, though this connection has less popular regional significance (not necessarily actual regional significance) than the airport connection.
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Old April 5th, 2007, 07:14 AM   #537
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The details of all this are interesting, but isn't the big picture a system that can move a large number of people from Sea-Tac (or even Tacoma) to Seattle quickly, without a lot of stops? I believe one way to make this successfull is if commuters can move more quickly than current highway and bus routes.
I say, reduce the number of stops, keep them to a minimum, and get the riders to where they need to go quickly and faster than alternative highway routes. Give the commuter a reason to ride and they will. Or, in a simpler statement, "build it and they will come"!

Last edited by pwalker; April 6th, 2007 at 03:29 AM.
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Old April 5th, 2007, 07:47 AM   #538
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^It's more complicated than that. It's multi-variate. The fewer stations one has, usually there are fewer riders and fewer bus connections, which often provides quite a number of riders. So one can increase the speed and time savings for a few people, but possibly reduce the total time-savings by cutting out would be patrons and transfering bus riders. This can be a tight balancing act, the ideal position unique to each urban area.

What is the intent of the system your building? Commuter rail or rapid intra-urban transit? Certainly Seattle could support both. However, if one is constructing new ROW at high expense, there is usually greater utility and probably more overall time-savings in making it rapid transit. Of course, if one builds a 3 track system, one could have express service that would essentially imitate commuter rail.

Link doesn't necessarily have to be faster than highway driving. It simply needs to be fast enough so that it is competitive in the decision making process. There are other advantages to taking transit to downtown, esp. Therefore the system might not have to be as fast, particularly if parking is difficult to find or expensive, or auto operating/capital expense is higher. It can be very difficult to beat the auto in terms of speed when traffic is light. The train should be as fast as possible, hopefully comparable to driving on highways, definitely faster than city streets, but it doesn't have to beat the car.

Nate

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Old April 5th, 2007, 06:58 PM   #539
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Getontrac is right. I am the perfect example on a small scale. I could drive all the way to the parking lot on my school's campus. However there are a few things that make me decide to park in a garage a little ways from my campus. First, the garage has a video survelience system and is constantly patroled. The school lot has no video survelience and is only occasionally patroled. There have been a rash of car break-in's in the area and I'd rather be secure. Second, the garage is free, and the student lot is 200 dollars a quarter for a pass. No thank you. So the extra five minutes it takes me to ride the streetcar/lightrail from the garage to the campus is worth less than the possible insecurity and expense of a parking pass.

Incidentally, Seattle does have both a commuter rail and light rail, so the commuter rail is precisely what you're talking about, pwalker, and we got it. While it's not constantly running, this year we'll have three or four more round trip trains, one of them being reverse commute.

Furthermore, with gas cresting 3 dollars a gallon here recently and it's only April (what will it be like at peak driving season in the summer!?), the car will be a more expensive option. Who knows what prices will be like in 2009 when the system opens, but you also have the fact that a growing region means growing congestion, and that adds to the perceived costs. During rush hour, light rail will probably be faster, which is the peak period and will thus have the most riders.

But, like you said pwalker, if we build it, they will come. They've already told us so.
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Old April 5th, 2007, 07:09 PM   #540
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I understand your arguments. However, I have heard some criticism that there may be too many stops. I understand the need for stops to increase ridership, that is a no-brainer. But, I'm wondering what is the optimal number of stops, are they positioned in the right places, and will people ride light rail if it takes as long as say, a bus or car? (I guess it's a little late in the game now as the whole thing has been planned and is being built!)

BTW, I rode the San Diego light rail a few years ago and it seemed there were a minimal amount of stops and it moved very quickly from downtown to the eastern suburbs. Anyone know how ridership is doing there?
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