daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Subways and Urban Transport

Subways and Urban Transport Metros, subways, light rail, trams, buses and other local transport systems



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old July 3rd, 2005, 04:41 AM   #61
greg_christine
Registered User
 
greg_christine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Smithfield, VA
Posts: 1,008
Likes (Received): 142

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyjoeda
I heard the Monorail project is dead. So is it all over?
It took a severe hit. It's in the Intensive Care Unit on life support, but it is not dead.
greg_christine no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old July 4th, 2005, 10:02 PM   #62
Cloudship
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 589
Likes (Received): 97

The new monorail coaches are a lot more subway like than the old Monorail. A lot of this, of course, has to do with safety and other regulations. But one thing which would be really nice if Hitachi did was to put in those small sky-light windows that the current Monorail has above the side windows. I think that would really help it be more open and have better views.
Cloudship no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 5th, 2005, 08:48 AM   #63
ssiguy2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: White Rock BC
Posts: 5,404
Likes (Received): 857

You don't build multi billion dollar transit lines for the view. Vancouver has done that with SkyTrain with ok results but at outrageous prices.
ssiguy2 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 5th, 2005, 08:53 AM   #64
VansTripp
BANNED
 
VansTripp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: LA/Trussville
Posts: 2,353
Likes (Received): 42

Nice project but Sounder the forumer are so cruel at me.
VansTripp no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 6th, 2005, 03:57 AM   #65
greg_christine
Registered User
 
greg_christine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Smithfield, VA
Posts: 1,008
Likes (Received): 142

The Executive Director of the Seattle Monorail Project and the Chairman of the Board of Directors have taken responsibility for the rejected financing plan and have resigned their posts. The board has established a committee to consider alternatives including 1) submitting a ballot measure to increase taxes to fund the system, 2) applying for federal grant money, and 3) re-bidding the project with reduced liability requirements and other changes to encourage additional parties to bid.

In other news, Team Monorail has now added to their website a drawing of the new Bombardier train they are proposing for Seattle. Team Monorail has repeatedly expressed interest in submitting a bid; however, they are unable to meet the current requirement for joint and several liability among the members of the contracting team:



The drawing is not easy to read. It shows a three-car train with 2+2 seating in the end cars and longitudinal seats along the sides of the middle car. Immediately to the sides of the doors of the middle car are spaces for wheelchairs. Racks capable of supporting two bicycles exist immediately inboard each set of the doors.

For more information, see the following websites:

Seattle Monorail Project:
http://www.elevated.org/

Team Monorail:
http://www.teammonorail.com/
greg_christine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2005, 05:28 AM   #66
EdZed
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Calgary
Posts: 196
Likes (Received): 0

Seattle Monorail in Trouble

LINK

Not sure if cancelled but the plan is barley hanging on.
__________________
Calgary Skyscrapers (12+ Floors)
214 Completed (2+ New)
19 U/C (1+ New)
10 Approved (1+ New)
17 Proposed
EdZed no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2005, 07:11 AM   #67
Chi-town Kid
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 114
Likes (Received): 0

Can we get some more barley in the house? Hops and barley will make the magic drink.

This is unfortunate news. Every major city should have some type of affordable monorail, light rail, or heavy rail. Makes life more convienant and takes people out of thier cars. Not that there's anything wrong with cars (love 'em) but people shouldn't be forced to drive everywhere, especially downtown in rush hour.
Chi-town Kid no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2005, 08:17 AM   #68
greg_christine
Registered User
 
greg_christine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Smithfield, VA
Posts: 1,008
Likes (Received): 142

Seattle Post-Intelligencer: Mayor abandons monorail

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/transp...norail16ww.asp

Friday, September 16, 2005

Mayor abandons monorail

By LARRY LANGE AND KATHY MULADY
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTERS

Mayor Greg Nickels today withdrew the city's support for the West Seattle-to-Crown Hill monorail line and said Seattle's voters will likely decide its fate in November.

"Put simply, the monorail does not have enough money to pay for the project," Nickels said at an afternoon news conference. "You can't solve real revenue problems with rosy predictions."

Nickels said the City Council will meet Thursday to put a monorail ballot initiative before voters Nov. 8.

"It's time for the people of Seattle to have their say," City Council President Jan Drago said in a statement. "The voters of this city deserve an honest discussion based on the facts; this is an important moment for Seattle."

Earlier this summer, the monorail board rejected the line's financing plan when criticism was leveled at the details of the $11 billion, 50-year deal.

The plan included $9 billion in interest, including some paid on "junk" bonds, to finance construction and other costs totaling more than $2 billion. The unconventional financing was necessary partly because revenue for the project from a motor vehicle excise tax has been less than expected.

NOTE: This story has been updated since it was originally posted.
Nickels had set Thursday as the deadline for the Seattle Monorail Project to tell him how the troubled line can be salvaged. The mayor had said if his concerns aren't addressed, the city might kill the project by not allowing it to be built on city streets.

Today Nickels said the city was indeed revoking the transit way agreement under which the monorail could be built on city streets. However he said he hoped the Seattle Monorail Project would go to voters in November to ask them whether the line should be built. If monorail officials don't do that, Nickels said the city would present a ballot measure.

It would be the fifth time since 1997 that voters have been presented with a monorail issue on a ballot. Each time they've endorsed the idea of the 14-mile line.

Monorail officials said they would respond to the mayor's actions later this afternoon.

John Haley, the acting monorail director, said Wednesday that the line should be built for the entire 14 miles voters approved in 2002, but costs should be cut and unresolved revenue issues taken care of. Wednesday night he asked for, and received, more time from monorail board members to pursue those and other changes - including pursuit of federal funding for the first time.

Haley said he thinks it can be done without changes in local taxes or shortening the line, both requiring voter approval. He wanted until mid-December to resolve issues.

Nickels reiterated today that given the monorail's cash crunch, the options are basically building a shorter line or asking voters for more tax money to pay for the entire system. Currently the line is funded by a 1.4 percent motor vehicle excise tax - which amounts to $140 annually for the owner of a $10,000 car.
greg_christine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2005, 08:19 AM   #69
greg_christine
Registered User
 
greg_christine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Smithfield, VA
Posts: 1,008
Likes (Received): 142

Seattle Times: Nickels rejects latest monorail plan

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...onorail16.html

Friday, September 16, 2005 - Page updated at 07:21 PM

Nickels rejects latest monorail plan

By Mike Lindblom

Seattle Times staff reporter

ALAN BERNER / THE SEATTLE TIMES

Mayor Greg Nickels takes questions about the Seattle Monorail Project for which he has withdrawn his support.

Seattle Mayor Greg Nickels is withdrawing his support for the monorail, and at a press conference this afternoon said he is canceling the agreement for monorail construction permits.

Nickels is asking the City Council to hold an emergency session next Thursday to put an advisory measure on the Nov. 8 ballot. Next Friday is the deadline to submit a ballot measure to King County Elections.

The measure, which would be Seattle's fifth monorail ballot question, is intended to ask the public whether the monorail should still be built given the project's financial constraints, Nickels said.

"That gives the monorail board one more opportunity at its Wednesday meeting to do the right thing and put its own measure on the ballot for voters to decide this November," Nickels said. "If they are unwilling to do that, then the city will do it for them."

The Seattle Monorail Project will hold a special session tomorrow, most of it behind closed doors. Yesterday was the deadline set last month by the mayor for SMP to offer a public re-vote plan -- to either increase taxes or shorten the line.

This afternoon, Gov. Christine Gregoire issued a statement supporting Nickels' move. "I personally do not believe to the monorail is the right approach because it will potentially divert attention and resources and not solve our critical transportation safety issues. Today, the Mayor placed this issue exactly where it belongs: in front of the people."

The planned 14-mile Green line from Ballard to West Seattle has been in increasing trouble since an $11.4 billion financing package was announced this summer, then renounced as too expensive. The project has suffered from cash-flow problems, with revenue from car-tab taxes -- the only funding source -- falling short. To compensate, SMP announced in June it would stretch its dollars by selling 40-year bonds, deferring interest payments and selling some so-called junk bonds with relatively high interest rates.

The public outcry prompted the resignations of SMP Executive Director Joel Horn and Chairman Tom Weeks.

Instead of a re-vote as urged by Nickels in a letter to monorail officials last month, SMP leaders chose in recent weeks to push for a three-month extension, so a new director, John Haley, could try to wring some costs out of the $2.1 billion project, and improve on the agency's discarded 50-year finance plan.

Haley, who joined SMP three weeks ago, has expressed frustration that a line in a pro-transit city, with most of the right-of-way already purchased, would face political turmoil this late in the planning. Nickels has been a longtime monorail supporter, although not with the same passion as he's pursued an Alaskan Way Viaduct replacement tunnel.

Several observers have warned that monorail controversies would help a statewide initiative to repeal gas taxes -- and therefore, jeopardize $2 billion in future gas taxes that state lawmakers have earmarked for viaduct work.

The mayor does not have direct control over the SMP, an independent agency. However, he wields political clout, and oversees the city's transportation and land-permitting departments. Last year, the City Council reserved the right to withhold construction permits if council members concluded that the project was unaffordable.

Copyright © 2005 The Seattle Times Company
greg_christine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2005, 08:31 AM   #70
rj2uman
Maker of Lumpia
 
rj2uman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Kent, WA
Posts: 585
Likes (Received): 7

What a waste of time and money for everyone involved! Luckily I don't have to pay that tax.
__________________
HMMM Interesting....
rj2uman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2005, 08:32 AM   #71
greg_christine
Registered User
 
greg_christine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Smithfield, VA
Posts: 1,008
Likes (Received): 142

Statement of Mayor Greg Nickels on the Monorail

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/new.../statement.pdf

Statement of Mayor Greg Nickels on the Monorail
September 16, 2005

Hello and welcome to all of you.

Let me begin by saying that this is perhaps the most disappointing day for me since I became Mayor nearly four years ago.

Today Iím withdrawing city support for the Seattle Monorail Project.

As you know, I have been a strong supporter of building a modern monorail system from the beginning. Like so many others in this city, I voted in favor of this project four times. As mayor, I worked closely with the monorail to move the Green Line toward construction. And I personally looked forward to boarding the monorail train on its inaugural trip.

But as mayor, it is my job to act in the best interests of the city.

By now, most are aware of the monorailís problems. The monorail staff earlier this year proposed a risky $11 billion dollar financing plan that the board rightly rejected.

In the wake of that decision, I said it was necessary to give the monorail board time to restore public confidence in the project and develop a new plan for moving forward.

But, as that time wore on, it became clear that the board had to present a new plan to voters this November to either shorten the line or ask for more money. And that is why I set a Sept. 15th deadline.

For me, the pivotal issue is whether the monorail has sufficient revenue to support the project.

To that end, I asked four questions to be answered before a spade of dirt is turned.
ē Can the monorail finish building what it starts?
ē Is the project financially viable now and in the future?
ē Is the estimated $7 billion financing cost an acceptable price to pay?
ē And does this protect the tax payers of Seattle from undue risk?

I appreciate the efforts the agency has made in recent weeks to meet my request. Unfortunately, the recommendation approved by the Monorail Board on Wednesday, and presented to me yesterday, does not meet those tests.

My staff, including Chief Financial Officer Dwight Dively, sat down with agency representatives yesterday to go over the financial plan in detail.

Put simply: the monorail does not have enough money to pay for the project. The financing plan presented to me is not prudent. It relies on a risky assumption that money from car tabs will grow faster than expert economists consider reasonable or prudent. You canít solve a real revenue problem with rosy projections.

What that means is there is a much higher risk that the monorail will be forced to ask for higher taxes in the future, or extend the length of the debt to an unacceptable 40, 50 or even 60 years. It means we are back to the original flawed financial plan the board rejected.

Two other areas also concerned me.

First, the financial plan sets aside no money for monorail operations after 2020. It assumes 100 percent revenue recovery from operations, which is something no other public transit agency in the country has achieved.

Second, cost cuts forced by the monorailís revenue problem have significantly compromised the design and functionality of the system. It is no longer the Green Line promised to voters.

In light of these concerns, Iím taking several steps that I feel are necessary to protect city taxpayers.

First, I am canceling the agreement that grants permission for the monorail to use city streets. Exercising my authority to cancel the Transit Way Agreement is the most direct method for preventing this flawed plan from going forward.

Second, I believe it is fundamentally important that the voters of Seattle have the final say in this project. The people of Seattle know Iím a mayor willing to make tough decisions. In this case, the people have a decision to make, too. The people created the monorail authority and I respect the peopleís right to have the final say in its fate. It should not be decided in City Hall and it certainly should not be decided in Olympia.

So I have asked the City Council to meet in emergency session on Thursday for the purpose of putting an advisory measure on Novemberís ballot. The measure will ask whether or not the public still believes the monorail should be built in light of the risks now known.

That gives the Monorail board one more opportunity at its Wednesday meeting to do the right thing and put its own measure on the ballot for voters to decide this November. If they are unwilling to do that, then the city will do it for them.

The question before all of us now is where do we go from here?

On my direction, the Seattle Department of Transportation is developing transit alternatives to serve the Ballard and West Seattle corridors. If the monorail is not in Seattleís future, we must find new ways to move people around the city.

But we must do more. It is time for the region to face the fact that the way we fund, prioritize and build transportation projects no longer works.

We have seen successes lately. Sound Transit has turned the corner and the Link light rail line is nearly one-third complete. Earlier this year, the state passed the largest transportation funding plan in its history. That money will pay for half the cost of replacing the Alaskan Way Viaduct with a tunnel. It also provides $500 million to replace the 520 floating bridge.

But for too long cities, counties, the state and other agencies have competed against each other for money, priority and access to the ballot. Indeed the creation of the Seattle Popular Monorail Authority as an independent new government was a result of Seattle votersí frustration with transportation decision-making gridlock. We need to use this moment to reexamine how we as a region meet our transportation needs.

I believe it is our responsibility as elected officials to come together and make the hard decisions necessary to ensure we build the best transportation system possible for the region.

To that end, I will be calling on my fellow elected leaders in the area to put aside the turf battles and the historic vested interests that led to this flawed approach. We must examine the options for a more efficient and more accountable regional structure to prioritize, fund and build a transportation network that works for all of us.

Iím joined today by Dwight Dively, the cityís chief financial officer, and Grace Crunican, director of the Seattle Department of Transportation. We would be happy to answer any questions.
greg_christine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2005, 08:45 AM   #72
mr.x
Ex-mod
 
mr.x's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: █♣█ Vancouver
Posts: 7,931
Likes (Received): 486

"Seattle Monorail in Trouble." Well, I'm glad you just realized that.
__________________
"My Homer is not a communist. He may be a liar, a pig, an idiot, a communist, but he is NOT a porn star." - Abe Simpson

"Preparations for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics are progressing so well, it's boring. We'd like there to be some challenges, so we [the IOC] could shout at them." - IOC (Sept. 2007)


"In medieval Europe if you didn't like somebody's argument and couldn't think of a real response you called them a witch and demanded they be burned at the stake. In the US you call them unpatriotic, and in Canada you call them racist."
mr.x no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2005, 09:19 AM   #73
rj2uman
Maker of Lumpia
 
rj2uman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Kent, WA
Posts: 585
Likes (Received): 7

^
yes we are all jealous of your skytrains down here. On my last trip up I rode from Surrey to DT Vancouver and was completely awed.
__________________
HMMM Interesting....
rj2uman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2005, 01:26 PM   #74
samsonyuen
SSLL
 
samsonyuen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Canary Wharf > CityPlace
Posts: 8,350
Likes (Received): 314

That sucks. Is it probably going to be voted for again? Is this Mayor Nickels anti-transit and will he have a chance at reelection?
samsonyuen no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2005, 06:40 PM   #75
ssiguy2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: White Rock BC
Posts: 5,404
Likes (Received): 857

I don't blame him for cancelling the line. The costs keep going up and yet the project is being scaled back. Too little bang for the buck.
Vancouver finished its 21km SkyTrain line in 2001 for 1.1billion CDN. How this monorail is 2.1billion USD is beyond me.
It also assumes total revenue cost recovery by 2020 which won't happen so yet more money.
Build LRT or an alternative or just say no. Seattlits did NOT vote for the line they are proposing and not that cost.
Cancel it now before the damage is done and it bankrupts the transit system for years to come. Monorail was a poor choice to begin with.
It may take a while longer to get a viable alternative which they can afford but thats OK.....do it right the first time.
Vancouver's new RAV line is 28km of which 9km is underground and will come in at 1.9billionCDN with any over runs paid by the builders.
Seattle should get out while the gettin is good.
ssiguy2 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2005, 09:14 PM   #76
greg_christine
Registered User
 
greg_christine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Smithfield, VA
Posts: 1,008
Likes (Received): 142

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2
I don't blame him for cancelling the line. The costs keep going up and yet the project is being scaled back. Too little bang for the buck.
Vancouver finished its 21km SkyTrain line in 2001 for 1.1billion CDN. How this monorail is 2.1billion USD is beyond me.
It also assumes total revenue cost recovery by 2020 which won't happen so yet more money.
Build LRT or an alternative or just say no. Seattlits did NOT vote for the line they are proposing and not that cost.
Cancel it now before the damage is done and it bankrupts the transit system for years to come. Monorail was a poor choice to begin with.
It may take a while longer to get a viable alternative which they can afford but thats OK.....do it right the first time.
Vancouver's new RAV line is 28km of which 9km is underground and will come in at 1.9billionCDN with any over runs paid by the builders.
Seattle should get out while the gettin is good.
Seattle is building Light Rail. The first 14-mile segment is being built for a cost of $2.4 Billion. The route is from downtown to 1.7 miles short of the airport. The last 1.7 miles to the airport might happen at a cost of about $225 million for light rail construction plus another $75 million in changes to adjacent roads. A 4-mile extension of the light rail line from downtown to the University of Washington is in the engineering stage. The projected cost is $1.5 Billion. The University extension is all underground. There will be only one station between downtown and the University along the 4-mile extension. There were to be two stations but the depth of the tunnel combined with poor soil conditions made it cost prohibitive.

When the $2.1 Billion cost of the 14-mile monorail line is mentioned, it should be noted that this includes operating subsidies until 2020 plus other administrative costs. The actual cost to build the line is around $1.6 Billion.

Last edited by greg_christine; September 17th, 2005 at 09:42 PM.
greg_christine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 18th, 2005, 12:22 AM   #77
Cloudship
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 589
Likes (Received): 97

It's not just the mayor. It's the whole city and state government. They are looking out for what they can manage and get their hands on. The monorail is pretty much out of their control, so they want to kill it. Any way they can. They already voted on it four times. They keep trying to force votes so that they can eventually kill the project.

The worst part about it is that this has absolutely nothing to do with whether a monorail is any more or less feasible than light rail - they have already shown that the construction costs is lower. The only real problem is the financing structure, and the debate over that is what the leaders are trying to use to kill the project.
Cloudship no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 18th, 2005, 01:29 AM   #78
greg_christine
Registered User
 
greg_christine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Smithfield, VA
Posts: 1,008
Likes (Received): 142

The governor and the mayor have stated that they consider the replacement of the Alaskan Way viaduct (an elevated highway) with a tunnel to be higher priority than the monorail. The viaduct was damaged during an earthquake a few years ago and must be torn down or rebuilt. The tunnel project is presently estimated at $4 Billion. The state legislature has enacted an increase to the gas tax that would provide half the money. That leaves a cost gap of $2 Billion. Guess what project has tax revenue that could close the $2 Billion gap!

Diverting the monorail revenue to the tunnel project faces several hurdles:

1. The tax revenue that funds the monorail can only be used for a monorail project based on both state law and local ballot initiative. Both the state legislature and the local voters would have to approve any change. The state legislature probably would support such a diversion of funds; however, there is little support for the tunnel project among Seattle voters. They would probably prefer to end the tax if the monorail project is killed.

2. The present $4 Billion dollar cost estimate for the tunnel is an initial estimate. Tunnel projects are notorious for having costs balloon out of control. The "Big Dig" in Boston is a prominent example of this.

3. There is a state-wide initiative on the November ballot that would repeal the gas tax that is funding the first $2 Billion for the tunnel. The gas tax is very unpopular in eastern Washington. Even if Seattle voters support the gas tax, voters in other parts of the state are likely to prevail in repealing it.

Last edited by greg_christine; September 18th, 2005 at 01:40 AM.
greg_christine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 18th, 2005, 05:54 AM   #79
Cloudship
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 589
Likes (Received): 97

The tunnel is, I have to say, one of the worst ideas they have come up with. It just doesn't make sense in that environment. I would think they would learn from the Big Dig (as someone who has lived through it, believe me there is a lot to learn!). But apparently not - Running such a complicated project can be so much fun!

I think what the voters need to do is to say to the Mayor AND the Governor that if they want people to be willing to pay for a tunnel, then they have to start doing something like supporting good rapid transit (and not just busses or streetcars) throughout the city. Unlike Boston or other cities with major roadway projects, Seattle has NO transit system right now besides busses and a replica streetcar line.
Cloudship no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 18th, 2005, 05:32 PM   #80
ssiguy2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: White Rock BC
Posts: 5,404
Likes (Received): 857

BTW, I know they are building the LRT. It even seems ridiculously expensive for LRT.
21km for $2.4bilUS??
Thats more than $100milUS per km........far more than most lines.
Calgary built is 42km LRT system for the equivalent of $800milUS in todays dollars.
It has ridership that the Seattle LRT will NEVER achieve..........230,000/day in a city of only 1.0 million.
I know some parts are underground but even still.
Vancouver is building its 28km RAV line, of which 9km is underground and the trains are driverless, for $1.5billionUS.
Seattlits are getting screwed on both systems. As far as I'm concerned its highway robbery for both of them.
Your city council/ transit authorities are getting their palms greased.
I'm a VERY strong advocate of transit but I would be fighting tooth and nail to have both of these lines cancelled. Total disregard for tax payer's dollars with little to show for it.
The whole point of lrt is that it is an affordable rapid transit system............Seattle's is not.
Most lines of lrt come in at approx $30mil to $90mil USD which is why they are being built, depending on if tunnelling is required.
Try comparing your prices too Vancouver's RAV, Calgary's CTrain, SanDiego Rapid transit, Edmonton lrt, Dallas DART, Toronto Spadina lrt, Dever TRAX, Ottawa's OTrain...........you will see how little Seattle is getting for the money they are spending.
ssiguy2 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
king county metro, seattle, sound transit, us light rail

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 12:08 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium