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Old September 18th, 2005, 06:01 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2
...
Most lines of lrt come in at approx $30mil to $90mil USD which is why they are being built, depending on if tunnelling is required.
...
LRT lines typically have costs in the range that you have mentioned when they can take advantage of pre-existing railway corridors or when they are built on street medians. Seattle did not have a pre-existing rail corridor to exploit. One section of the Central Link light rail line will be on the median of a street but this was not a viable approach along most of the route because the streets are narrow and steep. Also, building on the street impacts system performance by limiting the speed at which trains can operate and the minimum headway between trains.

Regarding subway tunnels, the cost in the United States now starts at about $300 million/mile. The cost can be much higher depending on geological conditions and the complexity of stations.
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Old September 18th, 2005, 07:23 PM   #82
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Calgary's CTrain uses only 17km existing rail, the rest they built from sratch.
Vancouver's RAV will not be using any existing railor ROW and neither will Edmonton's LRT south expansion, not Toronto's Spadina line, nor most of DART or TRAX.
Yer getting screwed.
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Old September 18th, 2005, 08:22 PM   #83
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^ Labor is much more expensive and have a much greater shortage in the USA. Plus like RAV, large segments of the Seattle LRT is tunneled, hence the costs. HOWEVER, at least in the USA, people actually get to vote for or against the megaprojects, unlike RAV whose high costs were imposed by the Vancouver westside creme de la creme...
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Old September 19th, 2005, 04:41 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
creme de la creme...
...
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Old September 19th, 2005, 05:36 AM   #85
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Vancouver has Canada's highest cost of living with skyrocketing labour costs due to home construction and massive building projects due to the 2010 Olympics.
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Old September 19th, 2005, 06:08 AM   #86
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I think its for the best the LRT you guys are building is a way better idea.
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Old September 19th, 2005, 10:30 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2
Vancouver has Canada's highest cost of living with skyrocketing labour costs due to home construction and massive building projects due to the 2010 Olympics.
That is meaningless though since Seattle is not in Canada. Its a different country, hence different cost structure. Even with a strong Canadian dollar, you can still buy more for a US dollar than a Canadian dollar right now anyway.
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Old September 19th, 2005, 11:27 AM   #88
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If your city can't find the political courage to build such a great project do not feel alone. Atlanta is struggeling to build a really great transit idea called the Beltline. The process that a city must go through just to build transportation is outrageous.

In both cases the systems need to be built and they need to do it now. Stop all the wranggeling and do it.
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Old September 19th, 2005, 06:23 PM   #89
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This will never happen for so many reasons and many of them posted by other forumers throughout this thread. I feel the main reason why it is failing is because of lack of political will to have this actually completed. There are too many transportation issues that all have been needed to get done for the last 20 years and it has split the attention of gov't at the city, county and state level. Everyone one wants the "it" project. But there are too many! The Alaskan way viaduct. The new 520 floating bridge. The I-90 LTR. The Monorail. It goes on and on and on......
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Old September 20th, 2005, 09:42 AM   #90
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well, yeah. There is a ton of projects going on, so WA state/county/city level is overwhelmed with the cost, so they're all at once not one at a time because of the earthquakes and the age of the infrastructre and explosion of growth and economy, many reasons.
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Old September 24th, 2005, 12:58 PM   #91
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Seattle Monorail headed for a 5th vote in November

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...084_monorail24
m.html

Saturday, September 24, 2005 - Page updated at 12:00 AM

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Sidebar:
The ballot measure:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABP...2002516940.gif
The route:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABP...2002516828.gif
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Shorter monorail route on November ballot

By Mike Lindblom

Seattle Times staff reporter

Seattle Monorail Project

Voters will pass judgment on the Seattle monorail in November for a
fifth time, though it may be too late to resuscitate the city's
transportation dream.

The Seattle Monorail Project board yesterday agreed, under duress,
to ask voters to either trim the Green Line by three miles so it
runs from Alaska Junction in West Seattle to West Dravus Street in
Interbay, or shut the project down. Just a few hours earlier, the
Seattle City Council had joined Mayor Greg Nickels in demanding an
end to the project.

An SMP attorney dropped off the hastily written ballot language at
King County Elections with about an hour to spare before the 4:30
p.m. deadline.

"It's time for the people to decide whether they want to save the
people's train," said Kristina Hill, SMP board chairwoman, who had
argued for weeks that the agency's much-maligned finance plan is
solid, and that she saw no need to vote again.

"The mayor's position is simple. It's too late. The city has lost
all confidence in the board," said spokesman Marty McOmber.

Nickels will encourage lawmakers to dissolve the state-authorized
SMP next year.

Pat Flaherty, a vice president for lead monorail contractor Fluor
Enterprises, said late yesterday he was cutting his Cascadia
Monorail team from about eight people to two to work on other
projects, and packing boxes to take from the team's Westlake Center
office. The group, which has spent well over $10 million of its own
money, is through unless the City Council, Nickels and SMP rally
behind the project.

"We've made a decision we're not going to spend any more money or
risk until we see a level of support to the city," he said as got
ready to board a plane back to his London home.

The proposed shortening of the planned 14-mile line would cut about
$250 million from Cascadia's $1.64 billion contract offer. The new
line leaves out Ballard, and a tall monorail bridge across the Lake
Washington Ship Canal.

SMP's decision to seek a public vote was a deathbed conversion:

• A week ago, Nickels, a longtime monorail supporter, yanked permits
for SMP construction on city streets.

• Without city approval, the line cannot be built.

• And in December, Fluor's contract offer expires, leaving SMP
without a builder, after spending close to $200 million in land and
planning costs.

Both Nickels and the council ran out of patience late Thursday, when
SMP board members voted 6-2 not to meet the city's demand that they
write a ballot measure. The board also portrayed the continuing
financial problems as a misunderstanding by city officials.

Deputy Mayor Tim Ceis said the mayor hasn't decided whether to
actively campaign against the new monorail measure, which will go
before voters Nov. 8.

A key pro-monorail campaign message, said SMP board member Cleve
Stockmeyer, should be that elevated monorail tracks, at around $150
million a mile, are a good deal because they're one-third the price
of light-rail tunnels. Tunnels have far greater passenger capacity.

Contractors do not intend to help bankroll a campaign, Flaherty
said. Dozens of SMP consulting firms and would-be builders did
contribute to previous monorail campaigns.

After the SMP vote, board member Steve Williamson called on Hill to
resign from the board to improve credibility with the city. Hill
replied she would confer with other board members about who should
be chair.

After voters approved the Green Line in 2002, the City Council
mostly embraced the agency. Several council members have come to
feel a sense of betrayal at the monorail board's response to its
financial problems, mainly a one-third shortage in car-tab tax
income.

"It is time for Seattle to stop living this dream transformed into a
nightmare and start a new day," David Della said.

Jean Godden cried as she called for an end to SMP.

"I'm angry and I think a lot of citizens are going to be angry as
well," Councilman Nick Licata said before the board wrote its ballot
measure. "Citizens supporting the monorail are going to be angry we
spent so much money and still don't have a monorail. ... They [SMP]
must have a skull thicker than an ox that they could not hear
citizens' concerns."

Monorail board member Cindi Laws fired back in a Northwest Cable
News interview. "The council didn't jerk the permits. It jerked the
voters," she said. One-third of the council members would be dead
within 10 years, she said, while the monorail would serve future
generations. Pro-monorail propositions passed in 1997, 2000 and
2002, and a repeal measure failed in 2004.

Licata softened his words at day's end, after SMP capitulated to a
ballot measure.

"I would hope that if the citizens do approve a monorail one more
time, that the city will cooperate to get it built," he said.

Last night, anti-monorail state Sen. Ken Jacobsen, D-Seattle, said
he would propose legislation to count the SMP's car-tab tax as a
credit against any future car-tab taxes for regional roads and
transit.

There could be an overlap of roughly one year when SMP collects the
tax to help pay off a $110 million debt and a possible regional car-
tab tax begins. Seattle residents wouldn't get double-charged,
Jacobsen explained.

Mike Lindblom: 206-515-5631

Copyright © 2005 The Seattle Times Company

---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/transp...onorail24.html

Saturday, September 24, 2005

Monorail will go to voters for 5th time
Board reverses decision after City Council drops support

By LARRY LANGE AND KATHY MULADY
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTERS

Seattle voters will get a fifth chance to approve a new city
monorail, this time a 10.6-mile segment from West Seattle to
Interbay forced to the ballot Friday by a City Council and mayor
skeptical about the viability of a longer system.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Sidebar:

P-I GRAPHIC
Monorail: Then and now

The P-I has prepared a graphic detailing the major events in the
life of the monorail project, including maps of the most ambitious
system imagined by planners versus the reality of the truncated 10.6-
mile proposal headed for voters (PDF, 260K).

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/dayart...norail0924.pdf
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Seattle Monorail Project directors, who just hours earlier had opted
not to put the line to a November vote, had their minds changed
abruptly Friday when City Council members voted unanimously to
withdraw support from the project.

Thursday night, monorail board members resisted pressure from Mayor
Greg Nickels and the council to approve a live-or-die ballot
proposal, hoping to continue refining the finance plan for the $2.1
billion line, trying to reduce costs and getting approval from the
city as they went.

They said those efforts would continue, but Friday the council ended
what one member called a "game of chicken" by withdrawing support
for the monorail project, affirming Nickels' cancellation of an
agreement allowing the system to be built in city streets and
threatening to block construction permits.

Council members said the project board hadn't adequately
acknowledged the lack of money to build the 14-mile line and didn't
act when the mayor and council asked them to put the line to voters
again.

Board members "put a bullet to their skull and not to their foot,"
said Councilman Nick Licata, previously a longtime monorail backer.

Less than four hours later, board members unanimously approved
putting the shorter system on the November ballot as a sudden-death
measure that says the shorter segment would proceed with voter
approval but "if rejected, no new monorail would be built."

Board members had hoped the city would give them enough time to
develop a new finance arrangement, having jettisoned the original
$11.4 billion one in June, and to reduce costs in the line to come
up with a new plan the city could support.

"There really has not been enough time to make the case,
apparently," acting board Chairwoman Kristina Hill said before the
vote.

"It is so sad that it has come to this point," said City
Councilwoman Jean Godden, also a longtime monorail proponent.
Several council members said the board had lost credibility.

The final straw for several council members came Friday when they
learned of an apparent distortion in monorail forecasts for growth
in the license tax revenue. The forecaster, EcoNorthwest of
Portland, tested its model against 1990 and 1991, the years the
state changed its way of calculating the tax, and indicating a
higher rate.

Then, after the analysis was redone, the company decided to use a
national, rather than local, inflation rate, raising questions about
the analysis, including how conservative the forecast really is,
said city Finance Director Dwight Dively.

"It's another indication of why I think this revenue forecast is
very risky," Dively said.

In response, EcoNorthwest economists said the recalculations suggest
the average 6.1 percent annual revenue growth forecast might be
lowered slightly but that it "remains essentially unchanged if based
on the revised computations."

The council's resolution said members support developing an
integrated, cost-effective transit system for the city that will
also serve the region. The monorail, originally intended to link
Morgan Junction in West Seattle to Northwest 85th Street in Crown
Hill, was to have been part of a citywide system but plans for
extensions weren't completed.

Council President Jan Drago expressed fear that not building the
monorail segment means "we will pass it to future generations" to
build an integrated system.

Nickels and monorail officials had informally discussed building an
even shorter segment, from Alaska Junction to South King Street, but
monorail officials said it would have required a different operation-
center location at higher cost.

A monorail board resolution for the ballot proposal says the
monorail agency could add the deleted line segments north of
Interbay and south of Alaska Junction later, with city approval.

It wasn't immediately clear what the price of the shortened line
would be or how long the 1.4 percent vehicle license tax would have
to continue to support a shortened system. Board member Cleve
Stockmeyer estimated the savings in design, construction and
operation cost would be $250 million.

That's enough, by one consultant's estimate, to reduce the total
financing cost from $11 billion to less than $5 billion, but
monorail Director John Haley said the number needs further
refinement. Ridership likely would be less on the shorter line
because it would eliminate three stations in Ballard and Crown Hill,
but monorail officials said they haven't yet calculated the new
figure or how it would affect farebox revenue. Lower ridership could
affect the system's plan to break even by 2020.

Some City Council members said shortening the line would create new
problems, while others said it could be just the answer. Most said
they would wait for details.

"They will still have to come up with a financing plan," said
Councilman Richard Conlin. "They are still several hundred million
dollars short. This isn't solved." He called the board's reversal "a
desperation move."

But Councilman Nick Licata said the shorter line makes sense.

"It is the only shot they have at success," said Licata. "I think
all the finances will be aired. I am certainly going to look at the
numbers. I still think the monorail is the appropriate technology
for Seattle and for that corridor."

Council support is critical to the prospective construction
contractor, Cascadia Monorail Co., if it's to proceed, said Cascadia
President Patrick Flaherty.

Flaherty said the new monorail is "a great project" and his company
can negotiate changes to shorten the line. But the proposed contract
expires Dec. 15 if not executed, and Flaherty worried aloud about
the prospects given the council's action and the need for full city
backing.

"You're a day too late to get that support," he told board members.

The final move to the ballot ended a day filled with maneuvering and
finger pointing. Friday morning, Drago asked that the council
meeting be adjourned without action until Monday so council members
could meet privately with city lawyers to understand legal
implications. Drago said she was concerned the monorail agency might
sue the city and that the legal risks needed to be known.

But Conlin said the council had studied the issue "a long, long
time" and pushed with other members to get the vote.

Later, before the monorail board voted on the ballot measure, board
member Steve Williamson asked for Hill's resignation as acting
chairwoman, criticizing her for continually blaming critics for
being "confused" about the monorail and misunderstanding issues.

Hill, an appointed member who doesn't intend to seek reappointment
when her term expires at year's end, didn't offer to quit but said
she'd ask other board members if they want to pick new leadership.
She left the meeting without further comment.

Monorail backers have said they're ready to campaign in force in
favor of a ballot measure. In addition, some may campaign against
Nickels and other city officials who've opposed the monorail. One
group, Friends of the Monorail, has endorsed Paige Miller, Conlin's
opponent, in her race for the council seat he holds.

Full city support for the ballot measure has yet to develop.
Councilman Peter Steinbrueck said he won't try to defeat the measure
but won't endorse it. Nickels won't support it either, said
spokesman Marty McOmber.

The monorail board's action "comes too late. The city has lost
confidence in this board to build the project," McOmber said.


WORD ON THE STREET

In Ballard and West Seattle, feelings about the proposal to shorten
the monorail line were as mixed Friday as they were when the city's
voters narrowly approved a 14-mile line in 2002. To some, the
monorail was a bad idea in the first place, and now that it would be
four miles shorter, an even worse one. To others, a shorter line is
better than nothing.
"Proposed Land Use Action ... Construction of a 13,846-square-foot
monorail transit station."

"The Seattle Monorail is coming to Crown Hill to serve You."

"Attention: Progress in Progress"

"Business Closed. Thank you for supporting this business over the
past years. I appreciate the friendships that I've made."

-- Signs at the now-empty Sunhill Food Store at 15th Avenue
Northwest and Northwest 85th Street, in Crown Hill just north of
Ballard.

"I was never interested in the monorail coming to Ballard. It would
have disrupted the neighborhood, the whole community. ... I've seen
the monorail, and Fifth Avenue is ugly. I didn't want to see that
happen to 15th Avenue Northwest. I think that Ballard is a nice
neighborhood. It's a quiet, pleasant neighborhood and having a
monorail come through here would have adversely affected that."

-- Jerry Harter, 57, eating at a teriyaki restaurant at what would
have been the Crown Hill station. The proposed station would have
been the monorail's northern terminus.

"I agreed with it at first. But the line is so much in debt, it
should be stopped."

-- Candace Kenoutt, 46, waiting to cross 15th Avenue Northwest at
Northwest 85th Street.

"As a Ballard resident and a Seattle resident, we should do whatever
we can to help get cars off the street and reduce traffic. I've been
paying a big add-on to my car tabs (fee). I'd hate to think that was
for naught."

-- Meg Jolin, 25, walking by the proposed Crown Hill station, on why
she supports even a shortened monorail line.

"I've been in limbo. It's been very stressful. I don't think people
will go for it. Really it's going to do less, when it wouldn't have
done much to improve the traffic situation (before)."

-- B.J. Marsh, owner of the Dealers Millwork Supply Inc., which
would have been torn down with the mini-mart, the teriyaki
restaurant and a karate school to make room for the Crown Hill
station.

"We have to do something. There's no room to have wider streets, so
you have to go up."

-- Lon Herstad, 31, waiting for a bus at Alaska Junction in West
Seattle, on why he still supports the project.

"It should have been built in 1965. It would have saved us billions
of dollars. Seattle has pretty much missed the bus in terms of
transit."

-- Rodney Kay, 53, waiting for a bus at Alaska Junction, on why he'd
support a shorter monorail line.

"It's not going to go anywhere. How many people come here?"

-- John Devitt, 41, waiting for a bus at Alaska Junction, on why he
opposes the project.

"We're here."

-- Kay, in response to Devitt.

"Something's better than nothing."

-- John Herman, 31, smoking a cigarette outside Easy Street Records
at Alaska Junction.

P-I reporter Larry Lange can be reached at 206-448-8313 or
[email protected]
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Old September 24th, 2005, 10:26 PM   #92
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I find it quite amazing that democracy is alive and well in the United States. If the voters truly want the monorail at its high cost, then the people have spoken. If they don't, then the people have spoken. Afterall its their taxdollars and its only rightfully so that people are formally asked on what to do with it.

For Vancouver's RAV Line, people who pay the tax aren't consulted by a fair and democratic process. The basis for its support are surveys done in a mall. And when it was rejected twice, the transport ministry of the provincial government made it clear that if you don't approve it, all other transportation projects desperately needed by the rest of the region ain't happening (e.g. the Golden Ears Bridge, the Coquitlam LRT). No referedum was done and that was sad. If the people from West Vancouevr to Maple Ridge to White Rock truly support the line at whatever costs, then so be it. But it should be done in a fair and democratic process similar to Seattle's. And if the referendum "costs too much", well that is the price that you pay for democracy and its well worth the price.

Whatever the outcome, I am proud of my American side for having known such democratic process still exist in the land of the free and home of the brave (I am dual American/Canadian citizen)!
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Old September 24th, 2005, 11:12 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
I find it quite amazing that democracy is alive and well in the United States. If the voters truly want the monorail at its high cost, then the people have spoken. If they don't, then the people have spoken. Afterall its their taxdollars and its only rightfully so that people are formally asked on what to do with it.

For Vancouver's RAV Line, people who pay the tax aren't consulted by a fair and democratic process. The basis for its support are surveys done in a mall. And when it was rejected twice, the transport ministry of the provincial government made it clear that if you don't approve it, all other transportation projects desperately needed by the rest of the region ain't happening (e.g. the Golden Ears Bridge, the Coquitlam LRT). No referedum was done and that was sad. If the people from West Vancouevr to Maple Ridge to White Rock truly support the line at whatever costs, then so be it. But it should be done in a fair and democratic process similar to Seattle's. And if the referendum "costs too much", well that is the price that you pay for democracy and its well worth the price.

Whatever the outcome, I am proud of my American side for having known such democratic process still exist in the land of the free and home of the brave (I am dual American/Canadian citizen)!
Funding is coming from 3 levels of Goverment, you can posibly think a national referendum on a local transit line is appropriate. The democratic process is you elect Mayors and Councillers to the Translink board and they vote on Transit issues. You didn't get a vote on the NE Sector light rail line why arn't you complaing about that or the new trolly buses they purchesd with out consulting you.

You may be a citizen of both countries but I think if you look south you will find many more problems with democracy. You accuses Canada of being an undemocratic country, why don't you come invade us.

You think RAV is a waste of money, look at your Iraq war did you vote on that?
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Old September 25th, 2005, 12:59 AM   #94
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The role of the Feds is just to help financially and so should the province. But if RAV didn't exist, then the money would have went elsewhere. The decision was still Translink to make but the provincial government called the shots indirectly by blackmailing them, as previously mentioned. Given that this is a regional project and affects regional taxpayers the most, then all residents of the GVRD should have a say on the project, not just the creme de la creme.

Despite this, its better than the elected dictatorship you have there where sound transit decisions are ignored and these sexy mega projects are driven by the wealthy elite. If Americans choose to fund highways or monorails, its their choice to make and they have to live by the consequences. GVRD residents don't have that choice. Even in other projects like the Port Mann Bridge twinning and Highway One widening, there seems to be some public opposition to it but again, the provincial government's transportation ministry is ignoring them and not putting it into a referendum. So its not really limited to RAV. There is something wrong with the way transportation projects are done in the Vancouver area and you should acknowledge that fact.

I'm a Democrat, btw, and proud of it. But the people in the US has spoken, they wanted Bush so they wanted the Iraq war. Its not what I want but I will just have to accept it. Democracy isn't perfect but its still the best system we have. And before I forget, the idea of invading Canada isn't exactly a bad thing. During the Chretien years, one Calgary oil exec once said, "Maybe the US should invade Canada just like they did Iraq for we need a regime change too..."
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Old September 25th, 2005, 01:16 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
I find it quite amazing that democracy is alive and well in the United States. If the voters truly want the monorail at its high cost, then the people have spoken. If they don't, then the people have spoken. Afterall its their taxdollars and its only rightfully so that people are formally asked on what to do with it.
...
I'm all for giving the citizenry the opportunity to vote on transit projects, but voting five times seems a bit excessive. I would have preferred that the monorail agency be given further options such as re-bidding the project or delaying construction in order to build a down-payment. Neither of these options would have required a revote. For reasons that are not entirely clear, the mayor has decided to give the monorail agency no choices other than to submit a ballot measure to shorten the line or increase taxes.

There is quite a contrast between the way the monorail agency's financial problems are being handled compared to Sound Transit's Central Link light rail project. The voters approved a plan to build Central Link as a 25-mile system with a cost of about $2 Billion. Following the vote, Sound Transit found that their cost estimates were off by a factor of more than two. Sound Transit resolved the problem by cutting the line to 14 miles and allowing the cost to grow to $2.4 Billion. There is presently no firm schedule for building the remainder of the line. They will build it when and if funds are available. There has been no revote of the Central Link project. Incidentally, the current mayor was the financial chair of Sound Transit at the time that the financial problems were made public.
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Old September 25th, 2005, 01:29 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
I'm a Democrat, btw, and proud of it. But the people in the US has spoken, they wanted Bush so they wanted the Iraq war. Its not what I want but I will just have to accept it. Democracy isn't perfect but its still the best system we have. And before I forget, the idea of invading Canada isn't exactly a bad thing. During the Chretien years, one Calgary oil exec once said, "Maybe the US should invade Canada just like they did Iraq for we need a regime change too..."
Well people in the Lower Mainland and BC voted in a huge BC Liberal majority even if it is down from there almost total sweep 4 years ago. If you say voting for Bush means voting for the Iraq War then by your logic voting Liberal means you accept RAV and the HWY1 expantion.

Every public opinion poll has shown that RAV has good public support in Greater Vancouver and it doesn't matter what people in Portland or Saltspring Island think.
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Old September 25th, 2005, 01:41 AM   #97
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I am referring to the second election in which reelecting Bush show support for the Iraq war (in the first one, Bush stole the election). RAV and Highway One Expansion was not in the initial BC Liberal agenda in 2002 and only came up after so the voters wouldn't know. the issue for the victory is economy and that is something the BC Liberals have delivered successfully. But note that the NES rapid transit is in the BC Liberal agenda for the recent BC election and the people have voted them in as well.

And if it doesn't matter what I and that salt spring island think, you seem to be quite emotional about it whenever we bring it up. ssiguy2 hasn't even made a post about it and you brought him to the discussion. And note that my initial comment was to compare the process between the Greater Vancouver area and the Seattle area and clearly, Seattle's is a much more superior and fairer process. Do you deny that?

So they vote five times on the monorail...so what? The people wanted it, the monorail people screwed up the financing. But instead of just killing it against the people's initial wishes, why not just ask them again for a compromise, which is the shorter route? Yes I agree with greg that there is problem with how the financing was handled. Given the financing problem, then all the more reason why the people should be asked. And if the people still want it, then it will enable the monorail people to continue on resolving the problem and get it built one way or the other. Confirming the will of the people in such a huge megaproject is the right thing to do. Its too bad the people of the GVRD had no choice to participate in a fair democratic process and will now be screwed over with high property and parking taxes, transit fares, and little bang for the buck when it comes to overall regional transportation improvements for the next 35 years. And what is the basis on that "public support"? Surveys done in a mall and telephoning solely the Vancouver and Richmond residents.
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Old September 25th, 2005, 01:59 AM   #98
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^ I agree Seattle's prosses is more fair, but at the end off the day Vancouver has a rapid transit line and Seattle may have wasted millions.

Quote:
I am referring to the second election in which reelecting Bush show support for the Iraq war (in the first one, Bush stole the election). RAV and Highway One Expansion was not in the initial BC Liberal agenda in 2002 and only came up after so the voters wouldn't know. the issue for the victory is economy and that is something the BC Liberals have delivered successfully. But note that the NES rapid transit is in the BC Liberal agenda for the recent BC election and the people have voted them in as well.
As for that comment... Bush didn't say in 2000 vote for me and I will invade Iraq, in 2004 they knew Iraq was in his platform and American's voted for hin. You say that means they approve the War in Iraq.

Gordon Campbell didn't say in 2001 to vote for him because he was going to build RAV. This Spring people knew the Liberals were in part responisible for approving RAV, they won so by your logic that means RAV is supported by the public.

You say the polls arn't accurate because they were conducted by phone, I doubt that they are off by more then + or - 5% and every one I have talked to is excited about the new line.
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Old September 25th, 2005, 04:47 AM   #99
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Could someone please enlighten me? How often does Seattle get to vote on projects on average? Are they only for the mega projects or do they come as small as a traffic light? Spare me the small details.

I like the idea of having more control over where dollars are spent. I'm not so sure if putting decisions on transportation in the hands of the general public is always a good thing. I believe you need people with vision and an understanding of where the city is headed. If people can be educated on issues, fair enough. If they only care about number 1, then what's the point? Nothing gets done, or the wrong things get done. I know in Vancouver people are mailed letters to inform them of projects being proposed in their area. They also have a chance to voice their concerns, opinions. In fact in my neighbourhood, we turned down plans for a new Home Depot. There's some democracy going on there somewhere, just not a lot of voting.
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Old September 25th, 2005, 04:08 PM   #100
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sade news for Seattle,. Stupid Mayor, vote new one in, he care's not for his voters,
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