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Old September 24th, 2007, 09:22 PM   #1161
UrbanBen
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Originally Posted by sequoias View Post
Yes, I already know that. The commuter rail goes up to 79 mph and the light rail goes up to 55 mph, wonder which will get there first? You decide.
Look, that's a ridiculous argument. Most of those riders aren't going from Tacoma to Seattle, they're going to and from the areas in between.
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Old September 24th, 2007, 09:24 PM   #1162
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Originally Posted by UrbanBen View Post
I do not work for Sound Transit. That track is single-ended (excepting some crossovers) and about a thousand feet long, though. It couldn't be used for anything else - it doesn't even pass a station.
Ahhh, good observation. Thanks for mentioning that.
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Old September 24th, 2007, 09:25 PM   #1163
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Quote:
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Look, that's a ridiculous argument. Most of those riders aren't going from Tacoma to Seattle, they're going to and from the areas in between.
Pretty much so.
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Old September 24th, 2007, 09:27 PM   #1164
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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
I believe the south line is projected at much higher ridership than that.
It is. The above-quoted 70,000 a day for the "north" line is the NEW ridership added by ST2, not including the ridership that will already exist from ID station to UW station.

2030 weekday ridership is quoted as 305,000 for Link alone. Of that, about half is downtown and points north.
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Old September 24th, 2007, 09:28 PM   #1165
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they do it in vancouver too during rush hour - well i haven't ridden in years but they did have trains that left downtown and skipped a number of stations on the way to surrey - they operated as express runs from downtown to surrey
I've never heard of that. How, exactly, did the express trains pass the locals? SkyTrain is dual track and I don't know of any stations with third tracks.
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Old September 24th, 2007, 09:29 PM   #1166
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Ahhh, good observation. Thanks for mentioning that.
Yeah, sorry I'm cranky today.
I blame the Sierra Club.
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Old September 24th, 2007, 09:31 PM   #1167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanBen View Post
Yeah, sorry I'm cranky today.
I blame the Sierra Club.
That's ok...you know how sierra club are sometimes. They like to quibble over little things, oh well.
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Old September 24th, 2007, 09:42 PM   #1168
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I agree with Sierra Club on this one. The ridership for the South Link will be pretty low to warrant any billion dollar high capacity system. The current ST express bus and Sounder service could easily be beefed up to serve the future. From ST's website, there's about 6,500 morning commuters who take Sounder and express buses to Seattle every day. 30,000 people drive northbound on I-5 during peak hours, so ST has about a 20% share already. Add more parking garages, increase express bus and Sounder service, and ST could double or triple its capacity more quickly (without waiting a couple decades) and at a fraction of the cost.
Look, I won't mince words. You're bonkers.

Sounder South serves an area east of I-5 with overall low density. Sounder can't run much more often than it already will because of the hundreds of millions of dollars it costs to buy track rights from BNSF.

South Link will serve a completely different population with completely different needs. I-5 and the side of the valley basically cut Federal Way, Des Moines, etc off from Sounder service, and that area west of the freeway is higher density and provides much more of the population driving northbound into Seattle AND southbound into Tacoma.

South Link will also provide a link between Tacoma and Sea-Tac, and drive higher density development around stations in the 99 corridor. This is a Good Thing.

This whole idea of running "more express buses" instead of real rail service is completely wrong-headed. In order to get the quality of service from buses that you get from rail, in order to actually get people out of their cars, you have to provide dedicated infrastructure (which costs as much as rail). We're doing some of that already with direct access HOV ramps, but it simply doesn't build ridership and centralize development the way rail does - it doesn't have the permanence necessary. I keep hearing how buses are "flexible" - great, flexibility means it's easy to get rid of them in a poor political climate, and developers know that - that's why anti-transit lobbies support buses!

Hell, even park-and-rides are bad in the long-term. The point here is to SAVE infrastructure money by not encouraging people to live waaay outside the core. If you can drive from Woodinville to Redmond, park for free, and then take the train into Seattle, you're still driving up roadway improvement costs out at the edges. It's worth it to get the rail infrastructure built, though - this is a compromise, and a good one.

Honestly, though - do you even know what the South line ridership will be? Go actually do some research.
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Old September 24th, 2007, 10:37 PM   #1169
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Right, Urbanben....I haven't found data on south link ridership....but I'm pretty sure it's way more than what Sounder south line has today.
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Old September 25th, 2007, 12:02 AM   #1170
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A good way to see how some of the ridership will be, so take the ridership of the 194, the 574, and some of the other Federal Way express buses. About the bus system, do any of you know if the 194, and the 574 will be combined? Also, will the LRT replace any bus routes?
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Old September 25th, 2007, 01:42 AM   #1171
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Originally Posted by Tcmetro View Post
A good way to see how some of the ridership will be, so take the ridership of the 194, the 574, and some of the other Federal Way express buses. About the bus system, do any of you know if the 194, and the 574 will be combined? Also, will the LRT replace any bus routes?
It would seem like a pretty interesting idea to replace long-distance bus routes with short distance bus routes that allow passengers to get off the train, and take a bus right from the train station to wherever they're going.
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Old September 25th, 2007, 02:57 AM   #1172
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I agree, the Sounder is nice, but it can't be expanded beyond a point, and doesn't serve the west side of I-5. Light rail can go a long way toward creating concentrated growth clusters in South KC.

That said, I'm thrilled about the 20% increase in KC bus service. Though I'd like Seattle to see a larger percentage of that than it's getting, the suburbs are getting some huge improvements in bus service including some BRT. This isn't as "permanent" or density-making as rail, but it'll certainly give transit a much higher mode share, particularly since many routes are too crowded today.
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Old September 25th, 2007, 03:25 AM   #1173
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Quote:
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I've never heard of that. How, exactly, did the express trains pass the locals? SkyTrain is dual track and I don't know of any stations with third tracks.
they would skip stations and only stop at a limited amount of stops

they would basically be held up by trains in the stations though if they encountered any

so it wasn't that much faster but was better for those wanting to go straight through
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Old September 25th, 2007, 09:02 PM   #1174
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Originally Posted by sequoias View Post
Right, Urbanben....I haven't found data on south link ridership....but I'm pretty sure it's way more than what Sounder south line has today.
Interestingly, I haven't found actual data on south link ridership either, but I believe it's in the realm of 75,000 per weekday.
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Old September 25th, 2007, 09:08 PM   #1175
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Originally Posted by spongeg View Post
they would skip stations and only stop at a limited amount of stops

they would basically be held up by trains in the stations though if they encountered any

so it wasn't that much faster but was better for those wanting to go straight through
I think I'm not being very clear here. Okay, so let's say there's an express train for Surrey, and a local right in front of it? How exactly does it get to Surrey any faster than the local? You do realize that the local train is on the same track the whole time?
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Old September 25th, 2007, 10:12 PM   #1176
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^ theres passing tracks. like short passing lanes on highways, these tracks, plus careful scheduling allow the express trains to bypass locals.
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Old September 25th, 2007, 11:44 PM   #1177
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Seattle could also try the old Chicago A/B style stops.
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Old September 26th, 2007, 12:05 AM   #1178
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^ theres passing tracks. like short passing lanes on highways, these tracks, plus careful scheduling allow the express trains to bypass locals.
No, there aren't. There are three short storage tracks between Main St./Science World and Surrey (with just a google maps check), and these are not used to pass.

The SkyTrain schedule makes no mention of express service, either: http://tripplanning.translink.bc.ca/...9&LineAbbr=999
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Old September 26th, 2007, 12:54 AM   #1179
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Seattle could also try the old Chicago A/B style stops.
The old "skip-stop" system...
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Old September 26th, 2007, 03:13 AM   #1180
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The old "skip-stop" system...
Again, that only works with passing tracks...
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