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Old October 9th, 2007, 04:08 PM   #1261
city_thing
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Stop being suck a dick mhays.
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Old October 9th, 2007, 09:13 PM   #1262
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Spamming multiple threads with the same post, off-topic in this case = the guy's a retard.
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Old October 9th, 2007, 11:51 PM   #1263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanBen View Post
I wouldn't call any Metro service 24 hour. 1am, 2:15, 3:30, and then 5:00am doesn't really count as 24 hour service in my book. I have to catch that 3:30 fairly often for an 8am flight - that hole in service affects me.
Metro doesn't have any service at 4 am do they? The 194 bus should start at 4 am, and end at 2 am, or just make the 24 hr routes 1 trip per hour at the night. That makes sense.
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Old October 10th, 2007, 02:43 AM   #1264
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Spamming multiple threads with the same post...
Here's something you won't see on another thread:



It also comes in orange!
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Old October 10th, 2007, 11:40 AM   #1265
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can i get magenta?
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Old October 10th, 2007, 04:19 PM   #1266
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Originally Posted by Tcmetro View Post
Metro doesn't have any service at 4 am do they? The 194 bus should start at 4 am, and end at 2 am, or just make the 24 hr routes 1 trip per hour at the night. That makes sense.
I think it makes even *more* sense to run them every half hour. When the third runway is up and light rail is in operation, we're going to have more demand for transit to the airport, and I'm sure they'll revisit the issue then - the particular 3:30 run I end up on is already jam-packed.

By the way, off (well, on) topic, Danny Westneat of the Seattle Times went down to Portland to try the MAX, and came back telling us we'll love light rail!

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...3_danny10.html

He even used sane cost numbers in the article, instead of the nonsense scary worst-case scenarios all the other writers have been peddling.
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Old October 11th, 2007, 12:41 AM   #1267
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I wonder if they will equip it with a special moving floor that speeds up people who can't walk fast or far to the terminal from the light rail station. That type of stuff is common in some airports around the US. I forget what it is called.
I have an answer for this one now!

I was at a media event this morning at Tukwila Station (there will eventually be a post about this at http://seatrans.blogspot.com), and asked the airport manager about moving walkways.

His answer first was: "No, and maybe." The initial construction will not have moving walkways for two reasons: First, the mechanicals for such a walkway would extend down past the ceiling of the floor below, for the section in the parking garage. Second, the connection through the garage is fairly temporary: When the main terminal is eventually expanded on the north end, a much shorter walkway can be built more permanently.

Makes sense to me.
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Old October 11th, 2007, 01:17 AM   #1268
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Originally Posted by worldwide View Post
can i get magenta?
The website for the "I Rode the S.L.U.T." T-shirts < http://www.donkeyts.com/customize/6/498/ > states that the color options for "Mens Fit Ts" are:

Black
Brown
Carribbean
Green
Navy
Orange
Red
Royal

It has come to my attention that a competing "Ride the S.L.U.T." T-shirt is also available over the Internet < http://www.ridetheslutshirts.com/index2.html >:



The available colors are:

Black ("Mens" and "Baby Doll" sizes.)
Brown ("Mens" sizes only.)
Navy Blue ("Mens" sizes only.)
Kelly Green ("Mens" sizes only.)
Pink ("Baby Doll" sizes only.)

I know that some streetcar fans are taking this as an insult but it probably is a positive indicator that there is enough interest in the project that two competing T-shirt designs are on the market even before the line is open.

Last edited by greg_christine; October 11th, 2007 at 01:23 AM.
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Old October 11th, 2007, 01:20 AM   #1269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanBen View Post
...

By the way, off (well, on) topic, Danny Westneat of the Seattle Times went down to Portland to try the MAX, and came back telling us we'll love light rail!

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...3_danny10.html

He even used sane cost numbers in the article, instead of the nonsense scary worst-case scenarios all the other writers have been peddling.
Thank you for the post! I hope the Seattle Times won't get too upset if I post the text of the article:

==========================================================

Danny Westneat

Light rail: We will love it
By Danny Westneat

Seattle Times staff columnist

PORTLAND — The question comes as I'm whisking 55 mph on a standing-room-only light-rail train in this city's west suburbs.

"What is wrong with Seattle?" It's not me who asks it. It's the woman next to me, Debby Fehrenbach, of Hillsboro, Ore. She is commuting 15 miles on Portland's MAX electric light rail to her job at a Portland software firm.

Fehrenbach lived in Seattle for 25 years. She moved here two years ago. Part of the reason, she says, is because of how stuck Seattle is.

"I love Seattle, but I kind of gave up on it," she says. "It's a bus city. In Portland it's so easy and fast to get around, you feel like you don't even have to have a car anymore.

"Seattle really, really needs one of these."

She's talking about the train we're on. At that moment it's in a 260-foot-deep tunnel, barreling along as fast as an East Coast subway.

I agree with her. Seattle needs this. It really, really needs this.

I've been skeptical about light rail since we first approved building it (the first segment is due to open, years late, in 2009).

My main issue wasn't the cost, though the critics are correct there: It's far pricier than buses. My worry has been about what we'll get for the money. You don't want to spend billions and end up with transit that dithers, stopping at red lights and halting about like a street trolley.

So I came to Portland to ride its 44 miles of light rail. To see what it's like. Portland's system is similar in technology and design to the 50-mile light-rail expansion plan King, Pierce and Snohomish counties are voting on in the Nov. 6 election.

It didn't take more than two minutes for me to be impressed. That's how long I waited to catch my first train in downtown Portland.

In two days of riding the rails, on 14 different trains, the longest I waited for one to come was eight minutes. That was at 11 on a Sunday night.

The longest any of my trains spent stopped at a station was 25 seconds — even when 75 rush-hour commuters tried to board a crowded train at once. I've waited much longer for a single rider to get on a Seattle bus, fumbling for change or arguing with the driver.

The trains are surprisingly speedy. Well, not in downtown Portland, where they run on the street like streetcars. But outside the core of the city, on their own grade-separated tracks or in the medians of arterials, the trains routinely reach 40 to 55 mph. (Seattle's system is slated to be faster than Portland's, because none of it runs in street lanes. All of it is planned for medians, tunnels or elevated tracks.)

When the trains cross side streets, they commandeer the lights so they get the right of way. I rode more than 100 miles on MAX trains and never once got stopped by a red light.

The riders I spoke to seemed happy with light rail. They praised the cheap price (top fare: $2.05) and the reliability. Light rail isn't necessarily faster than a car, they said. It's cheaper, and you always know exactly how long it will take to get there, regardless of traffic.

Plus it's electric, so it's quiet. And mostly pollution-free.

Some other things I noticed made Seattle seem like it has its head stuck in the sand. We've got critics — such as King County Executive Ron Sims — contending Federal Way and Tacoma don't have the housing density to support light rail. Yet those two cities have much higher densities than practically the entire Portland system — where light rail seems to be working just fine.

There's also the endless Seattle navel-gazing about which is better, buses or rail.

Portland has the answer: Both are better. Everywhere around town you see buses, streetcars and light-rail trains.

Buses are more flexible. But light rail concentrates development (see the fresh condo complexes sprouting along the MAX line). With such a transit mix, Portland at least has a shot at confronting congestion and global warming. Seattle seems to prefer talking.

The upcoming Proposition 1 is complex. It's $10.8 billion of light rail and $7 billion of highways, spread over three counties. Every voter has to calculate the tax burden and decide whether it's worth it (I'll write more about the highway and cost issues later).

All I'm saying in this column is that if we build more light rail, we will love it. As Portland plainly does. It's pricey. But it's reliable, quiet and, when designed so the tracks aren't right in the street, fast.

So maybe we'll start acting like a big city and build some real rapid transit.

Or, maybe we'll go on as "Seattle: Bus City, USA."

Forced to forever face that awkward question from our smaller, smarter friends to the south.

Danny Westneat's column appears Wednesday and Sunday. Reach him at 206-464-2086 or [email protected].

Copyright © 2007 The Seattle Times Company
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Old October 11th, 2007, 01:48 AM   #1270
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As noted by Mr. Westneat, Portland has a nice light rail system. It has a few issues that can be blamed on its initial implementation early in the era of the modern light rail revival. It's trains are limited to two vehicles due to the spacing of the cross-streets in way of some of the downtown stations and not all its vehicles and platforms are ADA compliant.

The most recent extension of the Portland MAX system is being built at a cost that is in line with most other new light rail lines across the country:

Portland - Interstate MAX Yellow Line
$350 million / 5.8 miles = $60 million/mile

This is in sharp contrast to the extensions of Central Link to be built under ST2:

Seattle - ST2 Light Rail Extensions
$10 billion / 50 miles = $200 million/mile

The cost of the Seattle light rail extensions is comparable to the cost of recent extensions of the heavy rail metro in Washington, D.C.:

Largo Town Center Extension (Completed December 2004.)
$456 million / 3.1 miles = $147 million/mile
Dulles Airport Extension
$5.1 billion / 23 miles = $222 million/mile

Light rail is a reasonable low cost option where there is an existing corridor that can be exploited. Seattle does not have suitable existing corridors. As a result, there is no significant savings over the cost of heavy rail. Seattle is essentially paying for a heavy rail line and getting light rail.
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Old October 11th, 2007, 02:25 AM   #1271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
As noted by Mr. Westneat, Portland has a nice light rail system. It has a few issues that can be blamed on its initial implementation early in the era of the modern light rail revival. It's trains are limited to two vehicles due to the spacing of the cross-streets in way of some of the downtown stations and not all its vehicles and platforms are ADA compliant.

The most recent extension of the Portland MAX system is being built at a cost that is in line with most other new light rail lines across the country:

Portland - Interstate MAX Yellow Line
$350 million / 5.8 miles = $60 million/mile

This is in sharp contrast to the extensions of Central Link to be built under ST2:

Seattle - ST2 Light Rail Extensions
$10 billion / 50 miles = $200 million/mile

The cost of the Seattle light rail extensions is comparable to the cost of recent extensions of the heavy rail metro in Washington, D.C.:

Largo Town Center Extension (Completed December 2004.)
$456 million / 3.1 miles = $147 million/mile
Dulles Airport Extension
$5.1 billion / 23 miles = $222 million/mile

Light rail is a reasonable low cost option where there is an existing corridor that can be exploited. Seattle does not have suitable existing corridors. As a result, there is no significant savings over the cost of heavy rail. Seattle is essentially paying for a heavy rail line and getting light rail.

This makes me wonder why we didn't start with a heavy-rail line instead. The basic Central Link is going to serve as an alternative to I-5, so why didn't we build a heavy-rail line to support future growth. Light rail will be so incredibly slow compared to a heavy-rail line, but then again the route runs along surface MLK, so
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Old October 11th, 2007, 03:42 AM   #1272
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Or you can have two wider ones, one in each direction and have the people who aren't in a rush stand to the right and people who are rush through the left.
Well... Not everyone have common senses. They will stand anywhere on that path and block the way when people are in rush. Been there and hate it when people are blocking my ways when I am in rush.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanBen View Post
They couldn't be direct, because it's not a straight line (but they could go quite a distance).
I am not sure about that because I haven't seen the floor plan of passengers' pathway between the airport and the station to see if it is straight line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanBen View Post
How about contacting the contractor (Mowat, I think) and telling them not to bid 90m on a project that should cost 55m? That's the only way we're going to afford moving walkways.
Hmmm please elaborate about the cost of this project. That is huge difference between 90m and 55m.

Sorry for being off topic here, let's get back to the topic.
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Old October 11th, 2007, 05:40 AM   #1273
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Well... Not everyone have common senses. They will stand anywhere on that path and block the way when people are in rush. Been there and hate it when people are blocking my ways when I am in rush.
We could have signs that says "Keep right except to pass." Would be nice if we started doing that on Freeways too. No one seems to get the "passing lane" rule here it's a pain. Noticed that when I went to England and Japan. Alright back on topic :P
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Old October 11th, 2007, 09:14 AM   #1274
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Hehe my dad got a ticket for "being in the left lane too long" a few years ago. He fought it in court and won. It's silly.

As for moving walkways, I think I've seen 4 together in a Parisian subway...though my eyes could've been playing tricks on me. Dubai airport has the widest ones I've ever been on. 3-4 people abreast can walk comfortably along it.

Walking on escalators (or even perhaps moving walkways) was "illegal" I thought due to safety concerns here in America. It's probably a liability issue; hence no "stand on right, walk on left" signs anywhere.
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Old October 11th, 2007, 03:55 PM   #1275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
As noted by Mr. Westneat, Portland has a nice light rail system. It has a few issues that can be blamed on its initial implementation early in the era of the modern light rail revival. It's trains are limited to two vehicles due to the spacing of the cross-streets in way of some of the downtown stations and not all its vehicles and platforms are ADA compliant.

The most recent extension of the Portland MAX system is being built at a cost that is in line with most other new light rail lines across the country:

Portland - Interstate MAX Yellow Line
$350 million / 5.8 miles = $60 million/mile

This is in sharp contrast to the extensions of Central Link to be built under ST2:

Seattle - ST2 Light Rail Extensions
$10 billion / 50 miles = $200 million/mile

The cost of the Seattle light rail extensions is comparable to the cost of recent extensions of the heavy rail metro in Washington, D.C.:

Largo Town Center Extension (Completed December 2004.)
$456 million / 3.1 miles = $147 million/mile
Dulles Airport Extension
$5.1 billion / 23 miles = $222 million/mile

Light rail is a reasonable low cost option where there is an existing corridor that can be exploited. Seattle does not have suitable existing corridors. As a result, there is no significant savings over the cost of heavy rail. Seattle is essentially paying for a heavy rail line and getting light rail.
I think you need to define the specific difference between "heavy rail" and "light rail" you're talking about.

Do you mean station platform lengths (and therefore number of cars)? Do you mean using a third rail instead of an overhead line? There's no inherent difference between "light rail" and "heavy rail" - there are a number of commonly cited differences between systems that are considered "light" and systems that are considered "heavy". We're getting four car trains in separated right of way - that's pretty far from a one-car streetcar, but not quite to the Tokyo Subway.

Frankly, I think this whole "light" versus "heavy" distinction is nonsense, because it's definable only in terms that scale - and we're not at one end or another of that scale. We're getting exactly what we pay for. Yellow line is at grade...
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Old October 11th, 2007, 03:59 PM   #1276
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Originally Posted by CrazyAboutCities View Post
I am not sure about that because I haven't seen the floor plan of passengers' pathway between the airport and the station to see if it is straight line.



Hmmm please elaborate about the cost of this project. That is huge difference between 90m and 55m.

Sorry for being off topic here, let's get back to the topic.
It's not a straight line. That's what I said. If you haven't looked at the floor plan, go call up public outreach at Sound Transit and ask! You'll do better with Teri Lapetino than with Roger Iwata, though - Iwata has never returned an email to me.

What is there to elaborate about? ST projected the cost at around 55m. There is *no* competition in Seattle right now because all our major contractors are booked up, so there was only a single bid, for 90m. ST did work with the contractor and has reportedly come to an agreement to bring it in for what they can afford, but this is what happens when you've got a hot market and the agency isn't allowed to do their own construction.
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Old October 12th, 2007, 04:01 AM   #1277
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Keep in mind that most construction bid prices for buildings are comprised mostly of work the bidder will subcontract. I don't know any details of this one, but it's likely the subcontractors alone were far above the $55m figure.

Furthermore, everyone's pricing has to account for not only the sky-high construction costs of today, but also the likelihood that prices will skyrocket further during the project.

If a profit was certain, or easy, imagine how many bidders they'd get.
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Old October 12th, 2007, 04:31 AM   #1278
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Originally Posted by kub86 View Post
Walking on escalators (or even perhaps moving walkways) was "illegal" I thought due to safety concerns here in America. It's probably a liability issue; hence no "stand on right, walk on left" signs anywhere.
It's illegal??? I see people standing on the right at Sea-Tac with people walking up all the time.

Also, this is a picture of Terminal B at Denver International Airport
It's a bit small, but you can tell what's on it.

Four moving walkways side by side with a warning system that cautions you before you step off saying "Caution, moving walk is nearing its end. Please watch your step. Thank you."

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Old October 12th, 2007, 04:45 AM   #1279
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I think you need to define the specific difference between "heavy rail" and "light rail" you're talking about.

Do you mean station platform lengths (and therefore number of cars)? Do you mean using a third rail instead of an overhead line? There's no inherent difference between "light rail" and "heavy rail" - there are a number of commonly cited differences between systems that are considered "light" and systems that are considered "heavy". We're getting four car trains in separated right of way - that's pretty far from a one-car streetcar, but not quite to the Tokyo Subway.

Frankly, I think this whole "light" versus "heavy" distinction is nonsense, because it's definable only in terms that scale - and we're not at one end or another of that scale. We're getting exactly what we pay for. Yellow line is at grade...
At $200 million/mile, Seattle is at the heavy rail end of the scale. Only extensive tunneling would make a line more expensive.

Probably the most important difference between light rail and heavy rail is speed. I have posted these numbers previously but they are worth repeating:

Seattle Central Link
Maximum Operating Speed: 55 mph
Maximum Operating Speed in Rainier Valley: 35 mph
Average Speed including Station Stops: 26 mph

BART
Maximum Operating Speed: 80 mph
Average Speed including Station Stops: 36 mph

Washington Metro
Maximum Operating Speed: 75 mph
Average Speed including Station Stops: 33 mph

One remarkable aspect of the above numbers is that Light Rail Now has reported that Central Link will be the fastest light rail line in the world.
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Old October 12th, 2007, 07:31 AM   #1280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
At $200 million/mile, Seattle is at the heavy rail end of the scale. Only extensive tunneling would make a line more expensive.

Probably the most important difference between light rail and heavy rail is speed. I have posted these numbers previously but they are worth repeating:

Seattle Central Link
Maximum Operating Speed: 55 mph
Maximum Operating Speed in Rainier Valley: 35 mph
Average Speed including Station Stops: 26 mph

BART
Maximum Operating Speed: 80 mph
Average Speed including Station Stops: 36 mph

Washington Metro
Maximum Operating Speed: 75 mph
Average Speed including Station Stops: 33 mph

One remarkable aspect of the above numbers is that Light Rail Now has reported that Central Link will be the fastest light rail line in the world.
Indeed it will. Also, those averages are skewed very low by the rainier valley - University Link will be much faster on average, and all of Sound Transit 2 will average closer to 30mph because of the distance between stops and much more robust planning for more full grade separation.
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