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Old October 17th, 2007, 07:03 PM   #1321
Tcmetro
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The only problem is getting the voters to pass the RTID. I doubt this will happen though. Sound Transit should have the vote in 2010, after the first stage of Link opens, it would have a much better chance of passing.
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Old October 17th, 2007, 10:09 PM   #1322
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The only problem is getting the voters to pass the RTID. I doubt this will happen though. Sound Transit should have the vote in 2010, after the first stage of Link opens, it would have a much better chance of passing.
Sound Transit doesn't have that luxury. They would have had the vote last year, but the state legislature delayed them because even-numbered years coincide with legislative elections.
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Old October 18th, 2007, 02:49 AM   #1323
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Yeah, but have you asked Portland how many people actually park illegally on a streetcar track? Any idiot can see the streetcar can't get around their parked car, so they pick somewhere else to park illegally.

What really makes buses unreliable in urban settings is:

1) The randomness of boarding times once the bus fills up -- loading everyone through one door, trying to squeeze standing room passengers through a narrow corridor, etc. Modern streetcars (like Portland's) are much, much better than buses at loading and unloading people quickly. (That's not to say someone couldn't design a multi-door, wide-aisle, low-floor bus and use it in a proof-of-payment system where everyone could unload and load at the same time. But it's not the reality of buses in use today.)

2) Pulling in and out of traffic at each stop. Streetcars don't need to do this. (Again, buses can do this, and there's some of it around Seattle, but it's not the typical reality of buses.)
Well King County Metro, Sound Transit, and Community Transit can allow all door boarding for some major stops, with only paid fare users boarding in the back of the bus. Currently, Vancouver uses this for the 99 B-Line, articulated bus with all door boarding for all stops (since it is an express bus). But then, you must implement the proof-of-payment system: in which then there is the problem of fare envasion, a problem that hasn't been tackled by Vancouver. Doing this can also speed up busses, travelling from destinations at a shorter time.

For #2, the city can build a "bus buldges," which is an extension of the sidewalk curb, which allows buses to stay in their lanes when stopping. Buses can also pull away from their stop without having to re-enter moving traffic. Vancouver is also trying to implement this on their #3 Bus.

But of course, anything on rail is much more attractive no matter what. People have a false (but good) feeling that cars on rail travel much faster. And of course LRT is much more smooth than buses. Quiet, electric vehicles also make a route much more attractive.
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Old October 18th, 2007, 03:23 AM   #1324
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Not necessarily. In Rochester, NY they had a subway, but it was abandon in 1956. The subway tunnels still have tracks, but there has been a debate between people who want subway service restored, those who want the tunnels filled in, and those who don't want to bring them back, because they would have to do something with all the homeless living in the tunnels. In Chicago, branches of the "L" have been torn down, and in Manhattan, El's were torn down, subways were planned for replacement, but were never built. In Sioux City, there was an El, from 1891, to 1899. And in Seattle the Interurban line was torn out, now causing the need for Link LRT, and interurbans were torn out all across the country.
Yes, the demolition of the Third Avenue Elevated in the 1950s left much of the eastern edge of Manhattan without convenient access to rail transit. Part of the rationale for the demolition of the Third Avenue Elevated was that it would be replaced by the Second Avenue Subway. After several false starts, it looks as though the Second Avenue Subway is finally under construction about fifty years behind schedule.

A similar situation exists in Boston where the elevated section of the Orange Line along Washington Street was torn down and replaced by a subway section several blocks to the north. The MBTA's transit solution for Washington Street is the bus rapid transit Silver Line.
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Old October 18th, 2007, 03:49 AM   #1325
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Well King County Metro, Sound Transit, and Community Transit can allow all door boarding for some major stops, with only paid fare users boarding in the back of the bus. Currently, Vancouver uses this for the 99 B-Line, articulated bus with all door boarding for all stops (since it is an express bus). But then, you must implement the proof-of-payment system: in which then there is the problem of fare envasion, a problem that hasn't been tackled by Vancouver. Doing this can also speed up busses, travelling from destinations at a shorter time.

For #2, the city can build a "bus buldges," which is an extension of the sidewalk curb, which allows buses to stay in their lanes when stopping. Buses can also pull away from their stop without having to re-enter moving traffic. Vancouver is also trying to implement this on their #3 Bus.

But of course, anything on rail is much more attractive no matter what. People have a false (but good) feeling that cars on rail travel much faster. And of course LRT is much more smooth than buses. Quiet, electric vehicles also make a route much more attractive.
We have all-door boarding Downtown, which is also a free-ride area. This is possible because you pay getting on if you're going toward Downtown, and when you get off if you're going away from it.

We're getting more and more bus bulbs. University Way NE is among the first, with its recent reconfiguration.

Another positive is that many of the bus routes through Downtown use bus-only routes, whether in the Bus Tunnel or along Third Avenue.

Add our HOV system and it's a reasonably quick system as bus systems go. We're also adding a lot more HOVs and some BRT in the next couple years.
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Old October 18th, 2007, 04:33 AM   #1326
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i always wondered how the free bus zone works - you get on downtown for free and than you go outside of the free zone - does the driver stop and collect everyones fare? or do the free zone busses not go out of the free zone?
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Old October 18th, 2007, 04:39 AM   #1327
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There are no routes that simply circulate within Downtown. All Downtown routes go to/from other neighborhoods.

For any bus outbound from Downtown, you simply pay when you get off.

For any bus inbound toward Downtown, you pay when you get on.

If you get on and get off without leaving Downtown, you don't pay.

The free zone includes the Bus Tunnel, which is basically five subway stations. You can go the length of the tunnel without paying.
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Old October 18th, 2007, 04:47 AM   #1328
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ah ic

thanks for the info
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Old October 18th, 2007, 05:21 AM   #1329
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There used to be some DT circulators, like the 98, and 944. They were cut because of I-695.
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Old October 18th, 2007, 07:52 AM   #1330
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It's honestly less the all-door boarding and more the separation of driver and passenger, the lack of farebox on the vehicle, that makes the light rail fast.
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Old October 18th, 2007, 08:03 AM   #1331
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Buses really ought to run like that. Tickets on the honor system with ruthless security to keep it functional. No stupid questions of the driver...maybe automated kiosks at major stops instead.
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Old October 18th, 2007, 09:44 AM   #1332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhays View Post
We have all-door boarding Downtown, which is also a free-ride area. This is possible because you pay getting on if you're going toward Downtown, and when you get off if you're going away from it.

We're getting more and more bus bulbs. University Way NE is among the first, with its recent reconfiguration.

Another positive is that many of the bus routes through Downtown use bus-only routes, whether in the Bus Tunnel or along Third Avenue.

Add our HOV system and it's a reasonably quick system as bus systems go. We're also adding a lot more HOVs and some BRT in the next couple years.
Sorry I don't live in seattle and I'm just engaged with this topic. Thanks for telling me this.

I think the main concern is that people think buses are worst that LRTs. Of coures I prefer LRTs but then transit authorities should make bus systems much more attracting.

As I said earlier, all door boarding, proof of payment system, and passenger-friendly features all make a bus system attractive. And what I mean by passenger-friendly features include:

1) Real Time Display: Many BRT routes implemented throughout the world have this. The 98 B-Line in Vancouver has this (but ours is horrible as it doesn't work too well) and the VIVA BRT Network has this too.

2) Automated Voice (regarding stops): bridges the gap between LRT and BRT, a passenger friendly feature.

3) Stunning, modern bus stops: include the real time display, map, and even in major bus stops, a ticket vending machine so passengers can purchase their tickets before the bus comes, security camera (for security purposes obviously), and benches. The should be very bright and "transparent" to.

4) Bus Lanes and HOVs: Seattle has a great network of HOV lanes and HOV exits. More should be created to speed up buses.

5) Maybe even include free Wi-Fi in buses (i'm not sure if this is in seattle buses).

My point is that we need to get rid of the idea of riding the bus is a secondary option. We need peoples minds to think that buses are an excellent way of travelling within the region. If a commuter who is stuck in traffic sees a bus speeding down the freeway, they may want to take a bus next time. We need buses/public transit to have a higher priority on the roads than single occupancy vehicules first!
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Old October 18th, 2007, 10:38 AM   #1333
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There are no routes that simply circulate within Downtown. All Downtown routes go to/from other neighborhoods.

For any bus outbound from Downtown, you simply pay when you get off.

For any bus inbound toward Downtown, you pay when you get on.

If you get on and get off without leaving Downtown, you don't pay.

The free zone includes the Bus Tunnel, which is basically five subway stations. You can go the length of the tunnel without paying.
Not true. The 99, which is the streetcar replacement bus, travels entirely within the ride-free zone.
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Old October 18th, 2007, 10:51 AM   #1334
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Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
...

I would highly recommend taking the “Pepsi Challenge” by visiting a city that has both light rail and heavy rail. Cities that have both include Boston, Philadelphia, Baltimore, San Francisco, and Los Angeles. Baltimore and Los Angeles probably give the fairest comparison as their light rail and heavy rail systems are fairly new; however, the light rail systems of both use high-floor light rail vehicles rather than the 70% low-floor vehicles that will be used in Seattle. Los Angeles has high-floor platforms to provide level-floor boarding for the high-floor light rail vehicles...
Just an FYI, the Seattle area also has Heavy gauge Sounder Trains in addition to the light rail under construction.
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Old October 18th, 2007, 04:11 PM   #1335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deasine View Post
Sorry I don't live in seattle and I'm just engaged with this topic. Thanks for telling me this.

I think the main concern is that people think buses are worst that LRTs. Of coures I prefer LRTs but then transit authorities should make bus systems much more attracting.

As I said earlier, all door boarding, proof of payment system, and passenger-friendly features all make a bus system attractive. And what I mean by passenger-friendly features include:

1) Real Time Display: Many BRT routes implemented throughout the world have this. The 98 B-Line in Vancouver has this (but ours is horrible as it doesn't work too well) and the VIVA BRT Network has this too.

2) Automated Voice (regarding stops): bridges the gap between LRT and BRT, a passenger friendly feature.

3) Stunning, modern bus stops: include the real time display, map, and even in major bus stops, a ticket vending machine so passengers can purchase their tickets before the bus comes, security camera (for security purposes obviously), and benches. The should be very bright and "transparent" to.

4) Bus Lanes and HOVs: Seattle has a great network of HOV lanes and HOV exits. More should be created to speed up buses.

5) Maybe even include free Wi-Fi in buses (i'm not sure if this is in seattle buses).

My point is that we need to get rid of the idea of riding the bus is a secondary option. We need peoples minds to think that buses are an excellent way of travelling within the region. If a commuter who is stuck in traffic sees a bus speeding down the freeway, they may want to take a bus next time. We need buses/public transit to have a higher priority on the roads than single occupancy vehicules first!

Wi-Fi is avalable for free on some King County Metro, Sound Transit, and Community Transit buses and trains. Seattle tried a few real time signs at stops on Aurora Ave, Metro deemed the project too expensive. I don't know about Seattle, but in Chicago, and Toronto they have buses that tell you what stop it is automatically, and in Chicago bus shelters, which can be found almost anywhere, have system maps in them. Chicago bus stops have route maps, schedule info, and destination info on the bus stop sign. KCM's buses are relatively new, and an order of up 715 articulated hybrid buses is being considered. KCM's RapidRide BRT service is supposed to begin in 2009.
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Old October 18th, 2007, 05:23 PM   #1336
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It's honestly less the all-door boarding and more the separation of driver and passenger, the lack of farebox on the vehicle, that makes the light rail fast.
In Århus, Denmark, you board all city buses in the back, where there is a ticket dispensor and validator, and exit out the front. It works fine, but I am not sure how many people ride free on average (they have fare checkers but the also have hundreds of buses) or what they do with wheelchairs as most of their buses are high-floor.

This photograph is old but you get the idea. The green stripes mean in, the red, exit doors. There is room to stand in the entrance area, so the bus doesn't have to wait for everyone to get their tickets to leave.

http://myldretid.dk/billeder/vis_billede.php?foto_id=447
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Old October 18th, 2007, 10:46 PM   #1337
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Not true. The 99, which is the streetcar replacement bus, travels entirely within the ride-free zone.
I didn't know that. In any case, while the bus is free, its route actually goes outside the Free Ride Zone. The zone extends to Battery on the north.
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Old October 19th, 2007, 01:02 AM   #1338
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Just an FYI, the Seattle area also has Heavy gauge Sounder Trains in addition to the light rail under construction.
Link light rail and Sounder are the same gauge. "light rail" and "heavy rail" are indistinct categorizations that don't really give us any information in this case.
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Old October 19th, 2007, 09:15 AM   #1339
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Gauge? As in width of the tracks?
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Old October 19th, 2007, 09:51 AM   #1340
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Gauge? As in width of the tracks?
yes
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