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Old November 7th, 2007, 12:58 AM   #1481
UrbanBen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HAWC1506 View Post
I really do not see the point of having streetcars in Bellevue. I think it would be more important to integrate some real mass transit in Bellevue. The buses can do the job in Bellevue just fine.

But what's this I hear? There is a Sounder proposal coming to Bellevue? How is that going to work? Bellevue hasn't got much room at grade rail lines in the heavily populated areas. Underground tunnel maybe? Maybe the sounder train is a little...big...I think something along the lines of a DC Metro system would fit nicely in the future.
There is NO sounder proposal coming to Bellevue. I was just trying to pre-empt someone bringing up the crazy talk.
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Old November 7th, 2007, 01:42 AM   #1482
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Originally Posted by UrbanBen View Post
There is NO sounder proposal coming to Bellevue. I was just trying to pre-empt someone bringing up the crazy talk.
Awwwww darnit We'll just stick with light rail then haha.

Anyone know when the results for the vote are going to come?
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Old November 7th, 2007, 02:20 AM   #1483
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Awwwww darnit We'll just stick with light rail then haha.

Anyone know when the results for the vote are going to come?
It should post starting at 8:15.
http://www.metrokc.gov/elections/200711/resPage5.htm
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Old November 7th, 2007, 03:40 AM   #1484
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanBen View Post
The typical Sounder passenger isn't a park and ride passenger.
The following are the parking lot capacities at Sounder stations:

Tacoma Dome: 2410
Puyallup: 364
Sumner: 286 primary lot + 41 secondary lot
Auburn: 676
Kent: 1101
Tukwila: 233
Edmonds: 115
Everett: 481

The total number of parking spaces is 5707. The average number of boardings for Sounder during the second quarter of 2007 was 7573. The term "boardings" implies that one-way trips are counted, not round-trips. Each round-trip passenger is counted twice. If a majority of the passengers are not park-and-ride passengers, there must be a lot of empty parking spaces at the stations.

Information on the facilities at each station can be found under the station information and maps links on the following webpage:
http://www.soundtransit.org/x1218.xml
A summary of the ridership for all of Sound Transit's operations can be found at the following link:
http://www.soundtransit.org/Document...ip_Q2_2007.pdf
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Old November 7th, 2007, 06:51 AM   #1485
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
The following are the parking lot capacities at Sounder stations:

Tacoma Dome: 2410
Puyallup: 364
Sumner: 286 primary lot + 41 secondary lot
Auburn: 676
Kent: 1101
Tukwila: 233
Edmonds: 115
Everett: 481
I can't believe Everett has such a lack of spaces! Sound Transit better hurry up with the Everett Station expansion project (another disappointment from Sound Transit).
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Old November 7th, 2007, 08:07 AM   #1486
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NOOOOOOOO!!!! The ballot is failing 44 to 55...BUT, tensions on, because that's only 14 percent of the votes...
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Old November 7th, 2007, 08:38 AM   #1487
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Indeed the prop seems to be going down. We'll have to wait and see till all the votes are counted, but it doesn't seem promising. Should it fail what do you all think Sound Transit's next move is? Next year? The year after? Will the package change (lesser scope)? Will it be tied with roads again?
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Old November 7th, 2007, 08:45 AM   #1488
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Does not look too good. It's going down, that's all I can say at this point
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Old November 7th, 2007, 01:25 PM   #1489
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SEATTLE TIMES

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...ransit07m.html

Election 2007

Huge roads-transit plan gets trounced
By Andrew Garber

Seattle Times staff reporter

Voters rejected a multibillion-dollar regional roads-and-transit package on Tuesday, likely leaving state lawmakers with a transportation mess that could take years to sort out.

With nearly half of the votes counted, Proposition 1 was failing overwhelmingly early today in King, Pierce and Snohomish counties. In order to pass, the measure would have to win two out of every three votes remaining to be counted.

"People like roads, people like transit, people don't like taxes," said state Rep. Fred Jarrett, R-Mercer Island, the ranking Republican on the House Transportation Committee and a Proposition 1 supporter.

The measure, the largest tax package ever put on the ballot in Washington, took five years to craft. Political leaders were counting on it to expand light rail, slow the growing gridlock on highways and help pay for enormously expensive projects like replacing the Highway 520 Bridge.

Failure means transportation planners must start over from scratch.

"There is no Plan B," Senate Transportation Chairwoman Mary Margaret Haugen said.

Speculation about what happens next ranges from placing tolls on highways to raise money and reduce congestion, to changing the state constitution so Western Washington can tax itself at higher rates than the rest of the state to pay for projects.

Sound Transit could try to come back to the ballot with a separate transit proposal, and local and state leaders could push a smaller roads package.

Judging from Tuesday's election results, voters were in a belt-tightening mood.

A constitutional amendment that would lower the approval level for school levies from 60 percent of the vote to 50 percent was trailing.

Tim Eyman's Initiative 960, which would require a two-thirds vote in the state Legislature to approve tax increases, was leading. And voters said yes to a constitutional amendment requiring the state to set aside a small portion of tax collections each year in a hard-to-tap "rainy day" fund.

Voters also passed Referendum 67, which would allow policyholders to sue for triple damages if an insurance company "unreasonably" denied a legitimate claim.

In King County races, Republican Dan Satterberg was well ahead of Democrat Bill Sherman for county prosecutor, and Republican incumbent Jane Hague defeated attorney Richard Pope for County Council.

With most of the ballots coming in by mail, it could take several days in some cases to determine for sure who's won or lost.

Proposition 1 would have increased car-tab and sales taxes in King, Pierce and Snohomish counties to improve highways and extend light rail. The package would have cost nearly $18 billion in 2006 dollars and around $47 billion over 50 years.

The proposal would have built 186 miles of new road lanes and 50 miles of light rail. Architects of the plan packaged the projects together in the hope of attracting votes from both those who want bigger highways and those who favor mass transit.

They also spread the projects across King, Snohomish and Pierce counties to garner regional support.

Opponents were upbeat late Tuesday night.

Mike O'Brien, chairman of the local chapter of the Sierra Club, watched the results come in at a local pizza restaurant. A well-wisher patted him on the back and whispered, "It's over."

King County Executive Ron Sims, whose reversal on the proposition may have helped defeat it, downplayed his spoiler role. "The voters rejected their plan. I had one vote, the same as anybody else," said Sims, a former Sound Transit chairman.

Sims predicted that Gov. Christine Gregoire would pull all sides together to propose a new plan.

"We've had issues go before the voters the first time, then we came back and were successful the second time. I think that's going to happen this time," he said.

Gregoire could not be reached for comment Tuesday night.

If the vote count doesn't turn around, there'll be a lot of second-guessing about what went wrong. Did voters reject the roads part of the package or the light-rail proposal? Or was the tax increase just too big?

"We'll have to look when we get to the end. Is it the money or the program list?" said House Transportation Chairwoman Judy Clibborn, D-Mercer Island. "I have no good feeling for why people are saying no."

Post-election polling may provide clues, but the reasons likely will vary depending on which part of the three-county region you're talking about.

The Sierra Club, an advocate of light rail, bashed the measure mainly because of the billions that would be spent on roads.

Bellevue developer Kemper Freeman attacked it because of the money going to light rail. Others, including Sims, found fault with the entire proposal.

Support from the state's top political leaders was lukewarm. Gregoire and the House and Senate transportation chairwomen, Clibborn and Haugen, said they wanted Proposition 1 to pass but also made it clear they weren't entirely happy with the plan.

Earlier this year, Proposition 1 backers seemingly had a lock on the election. They'd lined up the bulk of the region's establishment, including Boeing, Microsoft, labor and most of the environmental groups. They raised about $4 million and blanketed the airwaves with slick commercials.

A defeat may feel like déjà vu to many in the campaign.

In 2002, a lot of the same players backed Referendum 51, a statewide transportation package put on the ballot by the state Legislature. It would have increased the gas tax by 9 cents a gallon to pay for billions of dollars in highway projects. That campaign also raised millions for advertising and yet the measure was defeated by about 62 percent to 38 percent of the vote.

Now state and local political leaders may have to regroup and find another way to deal with the same problems: worsening traffic congestion, bridges in danger of collapsing and a growing population that will likely make conditions even worse.

After Referendum 51 failed, legislators went back and increased state gas taxes in stages without asking for voter approval. An effort to repeal a 9.5-cent gas-tax increase in 2005 failed, and the state Department of Transportation started work on several projects.

Christian Sinderman, a Democratic consultant, said there may be a lesson in the Proposition 1 vote. "It's hard to get a clear take-away message, but if voters are saying anything, it's smaller and less expensive," he said. "If voters reject the 10-course dinner, you've got to go back to a la carte."

Clibborn agreed that might be the route lawmakers would take. But she noted that the Legislature likely would not raise gas taxes like it did in the past to build new projects.

State forecasts project that revenue from gas taxes will decline as drivers reduce consumption because of higher gas prices.

So what will the Legislature do in January?

"I don't really know," Clibborn said.

Many opponents have touted congestion pricing — the use of tolls to discourage driving during peak traffic hours — as a way to both reduce traffic jams and provide money for transportation projects.

But last week, Clibborn said she doesn't expect that option to play a major role soon. "I think we could get there in a decade," she said.

Haugen says she'd like to see the state constitution changed to allow Western Washington to tax itself at a higher rate than the rest of the state to tackle transportation projects if Proposition 1 fails.

Still, whatever happens next "isn't going to happen overnight," she said. "It's not a one-session deal."

Staff reporters Susan Gilmore and Mike Lindblom contributed to this story. Andrew Garber: 360-943-9882 or [email protected]


==========================================================
SEATLE POST-INTELLIGENCER

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/transp...transpo07.html

Proposition 1: Voters hit the brakes
Most expensive proposal in history losing in 3 counties
By LARRY LANGE
P-I REPORTER

Voters in the central Puget Sound counties were rejecting the biggest transportation tax proposal in state history, one designed to unite transit and highway advocates to improve regional traffic congestion.

Tuesday night, it appeared that King, Pierce and Snohomish county voters were saying no to the measure, which combined a $30.8 billion Sound Transit proposal to add 50 miles of light rail line over 30 years and a $16.4 billion plan to build 186 miles of new lanes and ramps in the three counties.

The transportation ballot results appeared to follow a theme that voters were watching their pocketbooks during this election cycle. They rejected the proposed transportation taxes, approved a measure making it harder to enact new state taxes, voted to retain "super-majority" approval for local school levies and strongly approved a law that would penalize insurance companies that don't pay legitimate claims.

If Proposition 1, the roads and transit measure fails, King County Councilwoman Julia Patterson, a proponent, hopes that regional leaders will convene again to consider submitting another package of improvements. "We must do that," she said, "because the problem still exists."

Backers weren't conceding defeat Tuesday night. But Shawn Bunney, a Pierce County councilman and chairman of the Regional Transportation Investment District, which drew up the road portion of the measure, said he'd be "fidgeting" while waiting for final results.

Aaron Toso, a spokesman for the Yes on Roads & Transit Campaign, said proponents were surprised at the early returns, but were not conceding defeat.

"A lot of people were undecided and waited until the very end to vote," Toso said. "I think we have to be cautious about calling it; we're hoping some things can turn around in our favor."

Proposition 1 opponents were in a more celebratory mood. King County Executive Ron Sims, an opponent, said he was feeling optimistic, even though it was too early to declare victory.

Leaders "are going to hear from the public about what they really want. This isn't the first time the issue has failed," he said.

The vote came after the most expensive transportation-issue efforts in nine years; opposing campaigns raised and spent nearly $5 million trying to influence voters.

Proposition 1 would impose a six-tenths of a percent sales tax and an eight-tenths of a percent tax on car licenses in the urban areas of the three counties, on top of current sales and license levies. If passed, it would raise the sales tax in Seattle to 9.4 percent.

With the measure failing, the Legislature likely will act on its own on financing to replace the Evergreen Point Bridge, said Sen. Mary Margaret Haugen, D-Camano Island and chairwoman of the Senate Transportation Committee.

With the bridge aging and considered structurally vulnerable, the Legislature will likely consider a package using state gas taxes, federal money and tolls that it enacts on its own.

"It has to be done," Haugen said. "We can't afford to have a situation like we had in Minnesota," a reference to the urban bridge collapse in August.

Seattle resident Seung Yi voted for the measure at his polling place near Green Lake. "It's not a really hard vote, seeing how hard (commuting) has gotten. It's only going to get worse,." he said.

Some voters agonized over the ballot measure because of its length and complications. But Amy Larson, a teacher who lives in Seattle and commutes to her job on the Eastside, voted no after a lot of soul-searching.

"I want to see how the Sea-Tac light rail (segment) goes before we put up 50 more miles of it," she said.

Detailed construction schedules have not been determined, though the road projects would be completed in 20 years and the light rail extensions in 30 years.

Haugen said she doubts that regional leaders will attempt another transportation-tax package, given the other anti-tax votes Tuesday.

Others, however, spoke of attempting another proposal, which counties can still do. Mike O'Brien, chairman of the Northwest Chapter of the Sierra Club who opposed the transportation measure, said the region still needs a package that provides more transit options.

"We still care significantly about global warming," he said.

County Councilwoman Patterson said it wasn't clear to her why voters said no. She worried about the supportive coalition breaking apart, with roads factions and transit factions blaming each other. "We need to do an in-depth analysis of why."

Whatever the outcome, the Regional Transportation Investment District, which developed the highway project list, will meet at 7 p.m. Thursday to discuss its next move. The district was set up to finance the highway projects, though it wouldn't own them. Among the topics when it meets in King County Council Chambers in Seattle will be the next steps, which could include deciding how to handle project construction contracts if voters approve the measure.

"What we consistently hear from our members is that the status quo simply does not work any more for them as business leaders or as residents of the Puget Sound region," said Steve Leahy, president and chief executive officer of the Greater Seattle Chamber of Commerce.

The ballot measure was "a comprehensive, balanced approach, and with it, we can create a multimodal transportation system that works for our region."

The measure was supported by major businesses, organized labor and most environmental groups, who liked the proposal for an expanded light rail system that included extensions from downtown Seattle to Tacoma, Mill Creek and the Overlake area of Redmond. They also liked 30 miles of car pool-bus lanes that they said would speed up bus service, reduce the numbers of cars and cut pollution.

Seattle stood to get $323 million in regional money if the proposition passed, which would finance about 90 percent of the improvements to Mercer Street, the Spokane Street Viaduct and a new railroad overpass at South Lander Street, all designed to improve traffic flow if the Alaskan Way Viaduct is torn down and rebuilt.

State legislators mandated the joint roads-and-transit measure, hoping to end the historic tug of war between transit and highway advocates over which solutions better deal with congestion. They also were looking for new sources of project funding, convinced that gas tax revenue would drop as cars become more efficient and burn less fuel.

The proposal included money for replacing the Evergreen Point Bridge. But there was no public plan for where to find the $1.1 billion for the span if the measure failed.

And some critics noted that the package did not include money to replace the viaduct.

KEY QUESTIONS ABOUT PROPOSITION 1

If the measure is rejected, could a similar one appear on a future ballot?

There is no alternate ballot measure planned right now. The main question is whether supporters would try again with a similar measure, or if a measure separating the transit and road improvement portions of the measure could go to voters.

Are there alternative possibilities?

Some politicians are pushing for the two issues to remain part of one measure in any future, related measures. The Legislature would have to re-enact a bill to combine the two issues again on another ballot. The three counties involved in Proposition 1 also could form different districts and create new, less comprehensive ballot measures. The Regional Transportation District and Sound Transit also could offer separate plans to voters.

What would Proposition 1 cost me if it passed?

If you lived in an urbanized area of King, Pierce and Snohomish counties, you would pay 6 cents on a $10 purchase. That would pay for the rail and road portions of the measure, an increase of $150 a year per typical household. Also a car-tab tax of $80 for each $10,000 of vehicle value would go to roads.

What about the taxes I already pay for the Sound Transit bill passed in 1996?

Taxes already levied for Sound Transit -- 4 cents in sales tax on a $10 purchase and $30 for every $10,000 of value in car-tab tax (scheduled to end in 2028, when bonds are repaid) -- remain in effect regardless of the outcome.

P-I reporters Dan Catchpole, Casey McNerthney and Kery Murakami contributed to this report. P-I reporter Larry Lange can be reached at 206-448-8313 or [email protected].
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Old November 7th, 2007, 03:35 PM   #1490
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U Link is still going to happen. Will the S 200th St Extension and the Northgate extension be paid for by the current Sound Move taxes?
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Old November 7th, 2007, 05:23 PM   #1491
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no. it won't. sad ain't it?
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Old November 7th, 2007, 06:31 PM   #1492
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Unfortunately, due to the underestimation of the costs back when the agency was first created, the project had to be scaled back. There is no money for Northgate or S. 200th St.
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Old November 7th, 2007, 08:24 PM   #1493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taiwanesedrummer36 View Post
I can't believe Everett has such a lack of spaces! Sound Transit better hurry up with the Everett Station expansion project (another disappointment from Sound Transit).
how exactly do you know that everett needs more spaces?
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Old November 7th, 2007, 08:58 PM   #1494
UrbanBen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
The following are the parking lot capacities at Sounder stations:

Tacoma Dome: 2410
Puyallup: 364
Sumner: 286 primary lot + 41 secondary lot
Auburn: 676
Kent: 1101
Tukwila: 233
Edmonds: 115
Everett: 481

The total number of parking spaces is 5707. The average number of boardings for Sounder during the second quarter of 2007 was 7573. The term "boardings" implies that one-way trips are counted, not round-trips. Each round-trip passenger is counted twice. If a majority of the passengers are not park-and-ride passengers, there must be a lot of empty parking spaces at the stations.

Information on the facilities at each station can be found under the station information and maps links on the following webpage:
http://www.soundtransit.org/x1218.xml
A summary of the ridership for all of Sound Transit's operations can be found at the following link:
http://www.soundtransit.org/Document...ip_Q2_2007.pdf
So while it's harder to find, station on/offs in Tacoma are just a couple hundred - almost all of those spaces go to express bus riders (most Tacoma-Seattle trips on transit are bus) and people driving into downtown and taking the streetcar to work. There are also plenty of people driving to the other stations to take other services. I meant there are some 2500 spaces available to Sounder passengers.

And using the average weekday boardings for Q2? First, we're at the end of Q3. Second, the weekday boardings TODAY are 10,000. It doesn't matter what the average was - it matters where the trend ended up. If you average a line that's increasing, you don't get recent data.

I know you think you can smugly argue your way out of anything using numbers from a web site, but I actually talk to ST constantly about what's going on.
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Old November 7th, 2007, 11:31 PM   #1495
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1. I quoted the second qaurter ridership numbers because those are the latest numbers that I could find on the Sound Transit website.

2. I will take you at your word that most of the people who park at the Tacoma Dome Station are using the express bus service to Seattle rather than the Sounder commuter trains. What does this say about the effectiveness of the Sounder commuter train service if the express bus service remains more popular?
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Old November 8th, 2007, 12:23 AM   #1496
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The express buses travel at freeway HOV speeds, then go all the way through Downtown Seattle, stopping every couple blocks. What's not to like?

Sounder's role is to stop at a bunch of places. The Tacoma express' role is to avoid stops entirely.
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Old November 8th, 2007, 04:29 AM   #1497
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post


1. I quoted the second qaurter ridership numbers because those are the latest numbers that I could find on the Sound Transit website.

2. I will take you at your word that most of the people who park at the Tacoma Dome Station are using the express bus service to Seattle rather than the Sounder commuter trains. What does this say about the effectiveness of the Sounder commuter train service if the express bus service remains more popular?
From the CEO corner's report last week on ridership:

Quote:
In addition, the numbers show that each of our services posted significant ridership gains in the third quarter: Sounder up 33 percent (which includes the bump in south line ridership with the I-5 lane closures in August); ST Express up 11 percent for the quarter; and Tacoma link light rail up six percent for the third quarter.
That's probably 33% from Q3 2006's 6,355 - or 8,400 average. I've been told directly (by asking, something you should really start doing) that daily is now right at 10,000 - largely because of the new round trips - and that the increases are already accelerating in Q4 as the new service fills up. Two more peak-direction trains in 2008 aren't going to hurt, either.

You'll see a new ridership report on the web site tomorrow, I believe - after the board meeting.

Why take me at my word? Ask Sound Transit what weekday Sounder on/offs are at Tacoma Dome station. They have phones and email. Until you learn to do that, you're always going to be three months behind.

How is express bus service that runs all day and gets about 5000 weekday boardings "more popular" than train service that only runs a few times a day and yet manages to get 10000 weekday boardings? I mean, are you serious? In ten years, Sounder will be faster than express bus service to Tacoma, anyway. And why on earth would you make a judgment about a *line* based on a point on that line, instead of the whole? This is the same crap argument that the Seattle Times was making against South Link. I responded here:
http://seatrans.blogspot.com/2007/11...i-instead.html
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Old November 8th, 2007, 06:03 AM   #1498
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citruspastels View Post
how exactly do you know that everett needs more spaces?
I parked there dumbass! (sorry)

It took me so long to find a space. I had to park a couple of blocks away and I almost missed the bus.
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Old November 8th, 2007, 01:41 PM   #1499
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taiwanesedrummer36 View Post
I parked there dumbass! (sorry)

It took me so long to find a space. I had to park a couple of blocks away and I almost missed the bus.
that's not funny. totally juvenile and pointless.
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Old November 8th, 2007, 07:52 PM   #1500
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taiwanesedrummer36 View Post
I parked there dumbass! (sorry)

It took me so long to find a space. I had to park a couple of blocks away and I almost missed the bus.
This actually reinforces my earlier point - bus users are using Everett park and ride as well.
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