daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Subways and Urban Transport

Subways and Urban Transport Metros, subways, light rail, trams, buses and other local transport systems



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old November 14th, 2007, 02:47 AM   #1521
taiwanesedrummer36
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Little Taipei, Everett
Posts: 1,029
Likes (Received): 0

Direct-access ramps aren't just for buses, they're for carpools.

I wouldn't put direct-access ramps as part of you anti-bus initiative. For example, if I go to Lynnwood, I take a friend along and use the direct-access ramps at the Lynnwood Park & Ride. It is so much better than exiting at Exit 181 and driving on congested 196th Street.

Now the Ash Way direct access ramps: those are a complete waste, not to mention the many delays they encountered during construction (damn you Sound Transit!).
taiwanesedrummer36 no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old November 14th, 2007, 03:10 AM   #1522
UrbanBen
the transit nazi
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 966
Likes (Received): 12

Quote:
Originally Posted by HAWC1506 View Post
Are you comparing direct access ramps to no direct access ramps? Haha arguing with passengers over fare...nice.

What about for carpool vehicles? It benefits them from not having to merge from the carpool lane and crossing three other lanes just to make it to an exit. Decreases the chance of collisions, decreases the chance of congestion due to slowdowns in merging, and basically it improves safety.

The I-90 Eastgate direct access ramps are a fine example of improved traffic flow. Even though the people who get off I-405 still have to merge onto I-90, at least people who were in the HOV lane won't have to merge with them too to get to the exit.

Slowdowns and congestions caused by merging: I think we've all been on I-5 near Northgate where people coming onto I-5 are scrambling to make it to an exit for SR520 on the other side of the freeway.
I was comparing bus on direct access ramps to rail.

Hold on, there. Encouraging HOV use will congest your HOV lanes and eliminate the value of the ramps. You can't both look at improving express bus service and improving HOV service - if you try to improve both, you'll end up congesting both, just as we're seeing all over the region.
UrbanBen no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 14th, 2007, 03:14 AM   #1523
taiwanesedrummer36
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Little Taipei, Everett
Posts: 1,029
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanBen View Post
I was comparing bus on direct access ramps to rail.

Hold on, there. Encouraging HOV use will congest your HOV lanes and eliminate the value of the ramps. You can't both look at improving express bus service and improving HOV service - if you try to improve both, you'll end up congesting both, just as we're seeing all over the region.
Unless you have 3+ HOV lanes or HOT/HOT Express-Lanes system. I know WSDOT is considering that as part of the I-405 Corridor Program.
taiwanesedrummer36 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 14th, 2007, 05:39 AM   #1524
HAWC1506
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bellevue, WA + Munich, Bavaria
Posts: 1,280
Likes (Received): 28

Quote:
Originally Posted by taiwanesedrummer36 View Post
Direct-access ramps aren't just for buses, they're for carpools.

I wouldn't put direct-access ramps as part of you anti-bus initiative.
Since when was I anti-bus? Haha I've always been for public transportation and the more single occupant cars off the road, the better.
HAWC1506 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 14th, 2007, 05:42 AM   #1525
HAWC1506
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bellevue, WA + Munich, Bavaria
Posts: 1,280
Likes (Received): 28

Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanBen View Post
I was comparing bus on direct access ramps to rail.

Hold on, there. Encouraging HOV use will congest your HOV lanes and eliminate the value of the ramps. You can't both look at improving express bus service and improving HOV service - if you try to improve both, you'll end up congesting both, just as we're seeing all over the region.
Ahhhh I see, I am all up for rail. And if there's anyone more disappointed than me after Prop 1 failed, I would like to meet the guy.

We haven't gotten to the point where HOV lanes are being congested have we? The only times I've heard of them getting clogged up is either when HOVs are about to end and become a GP lane, or when there's an accident. I think as soon as HOV lanes start to get clogged up, then all WSDOT has to do is to increase the requirement to 3+ people. Of course, I'm sure there are more complications to doing that, but I know they will compensate for the extra traffic somehow.
HAWC1506 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 14th, 2007, 11:26 PM   #1526
UrbanBen
the transit nazi
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 966
Likes (Received): 12

Quote:
Originally Posted by taiwanesedrummer36 View Post
Unless you have 3+ HOV lanes or HOT/HOT Express-Lanes system. I know WSDOT is considering that as part of the I-405 Corridor Program.
Uh, yeah... at a cost of $20-30 billion.
UrbanBen no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 14th, 2007, 11:27 PM   #1527
UrbanBen
the transit nazi
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 966
Likes (Received): 12

Quote:
Originally Posted by HAWC1506 View Post
Ahhhh I see, I am all up for rail. And if there's anyone more disappointed than me after Prop 1 failed, I would like to meet the guy.

We haven't gotten to the point where HOV lanes are being congested have we? The only times I've heard of them getting clogged up is either when HOVs are about to end and become a GP lane, or when there's an accident. I think as soon as HOV lanes start to get clogged up, then all WSDOT has to do is to increase the requirement to 3+ people. Of course, I'm sure there are more complications to doing that, but I know they will compensate for the extra traffic somehow.
We've very much gotten to the point where HOV is congested, there are a lot of places where HOV is not continuous, and we don't have the political will to turn 2+ HOV into 3+ HOV. It's just not a battle you're going to win with the voters.
UrbanBen no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 15th, 2007, 02:09 AM   #1528
taiwanesedrummer36
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Little Taipei, Everett
Posts: 1,029
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by HAWC1506 View Post
Since when was I anti-bus? Haha I've always been for public transportation and the more single occupant cars off the road, the better.
I meant UrbanBen; he doesn't really prefer buses.
taiwanesedrummer36 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 15th, 2007, 02:10 AM   #1529
taiwanesedrummer36
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Little Taipei, Everett
Posts: 1,029
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanBen View Post
Uh, yeah... at a cost of $20-30 billion.
Really?! Wow....
taiwanesedrummer36 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 15th, 2007, 03:30 AM   #1530
Tri-ring
Expert
 
Tri-ring's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 459
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanBen View Post
Uh, yeah... at a cost of $20-30 billion.
With that much you can probably boar 100KM of subway.

Here is a post I posted concerning the almost finished Hiyoshi-Nakayama subway line in which it extends 13Km of which 10Km is underground. The estimated cost is approx. 2.3 billion dollars US including procurement of land, actual construction fee, train sets, loan interests and other miscellaneous costs.
It has links to the splash page to the Yokohama Shiei Kotsu which is a subsidiary of the Yokohama local government.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...0&postcount=15
__________________
banned for denial of war crimes in world war 2.
Tri-ring no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 15th, 2007, 04:19 AM   #1531
UrbanBen
the transit nazi
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 966
Likes (Received): 12

Quote:
Originally Posted by taiwanesedrummer36 View Post
Really?! Wow....
Yes, the current 405 widening plan (2 lanes) is around $10 billion in capital costs - the same as all of ST2. More lanes than that and you'd have much larger ROW takings.
UrbanBen no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 15th, 2007, 04:20 AM   #1532
UrbanBen
the transit nazi
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 966
Likes (Received): 12

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
With that much you can probably boar 100KM of subway.

Here is a post I posted concerning the almost finished Hiyoshi-Nakayama subway line in which it extends 13Km of which 10Km is underground. The estimated cost is approx. 2.3 billion dollars US including procurement of land, actual construction fee, train sets, loan interests and other miscellaneous costs.
It has links to the splash page to the Yokohama Shiei Kotsu which is a subsidiary of the Yokohama local government.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...0&postcount=15
You can't do that much work for that little money in the US, but you could do all of ST2 in 5 years with a funding mechanism that let you bond that much.
UrbanBen no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 15th, 2007, 04:56 AM   #1533
Tri-ring
Expert
 
Tri-ring's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 459
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanBen View Post
You can't do that much work for that little money in the US, but you could do all of ST2 in 5 years with a funding mechanism that let you bond that much.
Then you guys are being scamed big time since Japan has one of the highest construction cost in the world, not to mention the highest price of land per unit.

Look at the price of construction of other parts of the world for comparison, your neighbor, Canada is about the same although I don't know what the break downs are.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=542206

I'll tell you what, why don't the local government of Seattle ask for an estimate from other construction companies around the world and see what the estimate will be.
__________________
banned for denial of war crimes in world war 2.
Tri-ring no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 15th, 2007, 05:27 AM   #1534
taiwanesedrummer36
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Little Taipei, Everett
Posts: 1,029
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanBen View Post
Yes, the current 405 widening plan (2 lanes) is around $10 billion in capital costs - the same as all of ST2. More lanes than that and you'd have much larger ROW takings.
Wait, I meant just adding HOT lanes and converting HOV/HOT lanes from 2+ to 3+. But seriously, the I-405 thing is ridiculous.
taiwanesedrummer36 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 15th, 2007, 10:22 PM   #1535
UrbanBen
the transit nazi
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 966
Likes (Received): 12

Quote:
Originally Posted by taiwanesedrummer36 View Post
Wait, I meant just adding HOT lanes and converting HOV/HOT lanes from 2+ to 3+. But seriously, the I-405 thing is ridiculous.
And adding HOT lanes would probably be another $10b.
UrbanBen no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 15th, 2007, 10:23 PM   #1536
UrbanBen
the transit nazi
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 966
Likes (Received): 12

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
Then you guys are being scamed big time since Japan has one of the highest construction cost in the world, not to mention the highest price of land per unit.

Look at the price of construction of other parts of the world for comparison, your neighbor, Canada is about the same although I don't know what the break downs are.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=542206

I'll tell you what, why don't the local government of Seattle ask for an estimate from other construction companies around the world and see what the estimate will be.
They do go with Japanese companies - we're tunneling with Obayashi.

The reason, in general, that costs are lower for lines in Japan is that the density curve in Japan makes for much cheaper land relatively near the core. In the US, we sprawl - so almost ALL the land you're building on has inflated prices, rather than just the urban end of the line.
UrbanBen no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 16th, 2007, 12:18 AM   #1537
Tri-ring
Expert
 
Tri-ring's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 459
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanBen View Post
The reason, in general, that costs are lower for lines in Japan is that the density curve in Japan makes for much cheaper land relatively near the core. In the US, we sprawl - so almost ALL the land you're building on has inflated prices, rather than just the urban end of the line.
Do you know where this particular line is running?
It is running in one of the most heavily populated suburbs just 10Km out of Tokyo cental.
The price of land does not dramatically drop to 1/100 the value and even if it did, it still cost about half of King county.
So your explanation really doesn't have any real basis.
As again I think you guys are being scammed.
__________________
banned for denial of war crimes in world war 2.
Tri-ring no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 16th, 2007, 01:48 AM   #1538
UrbanBen
the transit nazi
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 966
Likes (Received): 12

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
Do you know where this particular line is running?
It is running in one of the most heavily populated suburbs just 10Km out of Tokyo cental.
The price of land does not dramatically drop to 1/100 the value and even if it did, it still cost about half of King county.
So your explanation really doesn't have any real basis.
As again I think you guys are being scammed.
The state auditor's office disagrees with you. Why don't you actually *find* the difference, as I'm interested as well?
UrbanBen no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 16th, 2007, 02:16 AM   #1539
Tri-ring
Expert
 
Tri-ring's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 459
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanBen View Post
The state auditor's office disagrees with you. Why don't you actually *find* the difference, as I'm interested as well?
I wouldn't know since you have not posted the detailed breakdown of the 10 bln dollars unlike the Yokohama Shiei within the link below.

http://www.city.yokohama.jp/me/koutu...ensetsuhi.html
overall cost Approx. 250 Billion yen
Procurement of land 30 billion yen
earthwork construction 123.9 billion yen
Installation construction, architectural designing, train set purchase
67.9 billion yen
Operational cost and loan interest, and other misc. 28.2 billion yen
__________________
banned for denial of war crimes in world war 2.
Tri-ring no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 16th, 2007, 03:36 AM   #1540
taiwanesedrummer36
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Little Taipei, Everett
Posts: 1,029
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanBen View Post
And adding HOT lanes would probably be another $10b.
Oh, I see what you're saying. I'm not talking about the entire I-405 plan. What I meant was just HOT lanes in general.

Assuming we (region) begin with a simple HOT lane system (such as with SR 167), the cost will be about $2 million per mile (in each direction). And then assuming we upgrade our HOT lane system to something similar to the California 91 HOT lane-express system, the cost will be about $13 million per mile (in each direction).


This is assuming no widening on highways, just restriping of exisiting lanes.

Last edited by taiwanesedrummer36; November 17th, 2007 at 01:58 AM.
taiwanesedrummer36 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
king county metro, seattle, sound transit, us light rail

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:58 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium