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Old November 28th, 2007, 01:29 AM   #1601
taiwanesedrummer36
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Originally Posted by HAWC1506 View Post
What throws a lot of great projects off is that people want those projects, but they don't want to pay taxes.
Or at least NEW taxes.

Just curious: how many of you would pay tolls on most of our freeways to pay for transportation improvements (minus the constitution crap)?

Last edited by taiwanesedrummer36; November 28th, 2007 at 02:53 AM.
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Old November 28th, 2007, 01:45 AM   #1602
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Originally Posted by taiwanesedrummer36 View Post
Or at least NEW taxes.

Just curious: how many of you would pay tolls on most of our freeways to pay for transportation improvements?
Japan's highways are all tolled and gasoline has a special purpose tax added to the price at the pump to develop and maintain roads.
Railroad on the otherhand is mostly tax free since the privatization of JNR into JR. Mega projects like development of new Shinkansen lines still gain subsidy for construction from the government but not many are built these days.
Some municipal govenment like my own develop subways to better transportation but they do it within the constrains of the budget and issuing of new bonds.
Repayment of construction is set at around 30 years but most ends up paying ahead of schedule due to increase in ridership through population growth within the region by added mobility convenience.
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Old November 28th, 2007, 04:00 AM   #1603
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I thought frequency was 4 minutes at peak service.
Initially it will be 6 minutes. 4 minutes won't start until University Link starts operating, more than likely.
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Old November 28th, 2007, 04:01 AM   #1604
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Japan's highways are all tolled and gasoline has a special purpose tax added to the price at the pump to develop and maintain roads.
Railroad on the otherhand is mostly tax free since the privatization of JNR into JR. Mega projects like development of new Shinkansen lines still gain subsidy for construction from the government but not many are built these days.
Some municipal govenment like my own develop subways to better transportation but they do it within the constrains of the budget and issuing of new bonds.
Repayment of construction is set at around 30 years but most ends up paying ahead of schedule due to increase in ridership through population growth within the region by added mobility convenience.
Yeah, we can't do that here because we don't have any existing rail infrastructure to make money, and because we still give out highways like candy.
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Old November 28th, 2007, 07:19 AM   #1605
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Yeah, we can't do that here because we don't have any existing rail infrastructure to make money, and because we still give out highways like candy.
Yeah, I know and I sympathize. I was just answering to Taiwanese's question.
With the looks of it and talking to some people from the US in general concerning taxes. I personally think that there is too much individuality mentality where people tend to think that if it does not bring benefit to me then I will not agree, not being able to look at the big picture.
Too much political feet pulling as well, where everyone thinking that "His/Her way" is the only way.
I was quite suprised on how a news media which should be neutral to any subject was so biased although I guess editorials pieces does reserve privilage to speak out their mind as long as it does not mask their opinion as if it was neutrally reported news piece.

Anyways I believe that extentions of the already constructing LTR will be accepted as soon as people realizes how convenient rail transits are.(Probably look back and start looking for someone to blame for delaying construction as well but I guess that is another story.)
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Old November 28th, 2007, 09:52 AM   #1606
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Kind of good and kind of bad isn't it?

Here, you can choose (or at least try) to see where light rail will go to and what you want to see in terms of transportation improvements. But then there's all that technical and political details that can really screw up such a vote, as what happened here.
Here,there is no voting about such things. In fact,we dont vote about transportation things(roads,rails,nothing). Everybody is glad,when a tram or a metro is built nearby their houses,because it raises its value. If you want,you can try and collect enough signatures to hold off the constructions,but since almost everybody likes it,this usually fails. Its just been announced that 2 tramlines will be extended here.
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=198
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Old November 28th, 2007, 11:27 AM   #1607
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Everybody is glad,when a tram or a metro is built nearby their houses,because it raises its value.
[
Wait it raises the value there?

Didn't Freeman vote against Light Rail because it decreases the value of the homes here?
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Old November 28th, 2007, 11:35 AM   #1608
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Wait it raises the value there?

Didn't Freeman vote against Light Rail because it decreases the value of the homes here?
It usually does since convenience of mobility is highly up-graded to who ever lives near a station.
Japanese still flocks to snatch a piece of land that had just been announced for new station development. Not to mention the occasional high ranking officials caught in middle of an insider scandal trying to purchase a peice of real estate before announcement of plan.
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Old November 28th, 2007, 12:12 PM   #1609
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It usually does since convenience of mobility is highly up-graded to who ever lives near a station.
Japanese still flocks to snatch a piece of land that had just been announced for new station development. Not to mention the occasional high ranking officials caught in middle of an insider scandal trying to purchase a peice of real estate before announcement of plan.
I was talking about the value of homes nearby the future stations. If you live near a bus-stop,or a tram stop,or a metro station,it raises the value of the flat. Lets just say a similar flat here(at my place,where there are only 3 bus stations) is cheaper than at a metro/tram station. Where there are new tramlines,development of the area usually follows it. New apartments and such.
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Old November 28th, 2007, 02:08 PM   #1610
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BTW,I know it is waaay off-topic,but today it was exactly 120 years ago that the first tramline was opened in Budapest. If interested:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=267
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Old November 28th, 2007, 11:29 PM   #1611
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Why don't we, rather than doing tons of work for basically no benefit, just realize that Sound Transit isn't dumb?
Because that clearly isn't working. At best, there is a misunderstanding of the data that each of you are looking at. Your posts have attempted to explain that misunderstanding, but not in a way that seems to make sense. This is why I suggested doing the math yourself in order to show the results your saying would be the case. So, factor in all these costs you're talking about that aren't shown in the "limited" figures that are popping up in this thread.

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And Jaxom92, why don't you go to the Sound Transit website and find out yourself. It's so easy to find it's easier than finding a Starbucks.....ha ha....
Because I'm not the one that's having the disagreement. My post was an attempt to find a solution, but the parties involved have to be willing to do the work.
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Old November 29th, 2007, 02:14 AM   #1612
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Because that clearly isn't working. At best, there is a misunderstanding of the data that each of you are looking at. Your posts have attempted to explain that misunderstanding, but not in a way that seems to make sense. This is why I suggested doing the math yourself in order to show the results your saying would be the case. So, factor in all these costs you're talking about that aren't shown in the "limited" figures that are popping up in this thread.



Because I'm not the one that's having the disagreement. My post was an attempt to find a solution, but the parties involved have to be willing to do the work.
Do you have any idea how much work you're talking about? I'm sorry that greg_christine is crazy, and if a lot of Seattle agrees that they want to keep pissing money away on buses, that's frankly their problem.
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Old November 29th, 2007, 02:27 AM   #1613
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Do you have any idea how much work you're talking about? I'm sorry that greg_christine is crazy, and if a lot of Seattle agrees that they want to keep pissing money away on buses, that's frankly their problem.
If the work hasn't already been done, and thus postable, then how do you know for sure what your saying is true? I assumed that somewhere the data was already compiled, considering how vehemently you've been proclaiming your side of the argument.
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Old November 29th, 2007, 03:15 AM   #1614
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If the work hasn't already been done, and thus postable, then how do you know for sure what your saying is true? I assumed that somewhere the data was already compiled, considering how vehemently you've been proclaiming your side of the argument.
It is already compiled, it's just no longer online. I've been following this for years, since well before the Sound Transit site redesign, and the information about previous years just isn't there anymore.

But that's still pointless - averaging Sounder North with Sounder South will never give us an accurate representation of costs. The entire source of this latest assertion that the buses are cheaper is simply invalid. You can't compare them directly because they offer radically different service quality that garners different corridor ridership, we aren't talking about mature systems, and it's not like you need "sources of data" to understand that Sound Transit isn't paying for the lanes their buses use, which will be recurring capital costs that Sounder will not incur.

This isn't a "side". Greg_Christine is just pretending he can make value judgments based on partial data. Putting the burden of proof on me to "disprove" something as half-baked as his assertions is a logical fallacy in itself.

Last edited by UrbanBen; November 29th, 2007 at 03:57 AM.
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Old November 29th, 2007, 04:41 AM   #1615
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It is already compiled, it's just no longer online. I've been following this for years, since well before the Sound Transit site redesign, and the information about previous years just isn't there anymore.

This isn't a "side". Greg_Christine is just pretending he can make value judgments based on partial data. Putting the burden of proof on me to "disprove" something as half-baked as his assertions is a logical fallacy in itself.
I wasn't asking you to disprove greg_christine so much as proving your own point. It's unfortunate that the data isn't as easily available anymore though. It would make backing up your assertions a lot easier, and in turn help greg_christine understand what you're saying. I'm not going to address the "side" thing. It's pointless to argue semantics and it would derail the thread.

For the record, I understand what you're saying about the costs being distributed over agencies and over time, and therefore not reflected in the capital costs as reported by Sound Transit. One of the biggest problems in shaping public policy, for any field, but in our case, transportation, is this distribution of costs over place and time. It requires a lot of effort on the part of the layman to 1) understand where and when those costs are incurred and 2) compile that data to shape an informed opinion. Most people don't have the time or inclination to actively do this. I know I don't, and therefore while understanding your points but not having the data can neither agree or disagree in this particular case (buses vs rail).

One question, I pose to you, UrbanBen, is that, as a transit advocate, why would it be a waste of effort to have this compilation of costs readily at hand to you personally? If it's already been done, and was available at one time, presumably one could request it from Sound Transit or any other agency that's responsible for that information. My point in asking is that, as I said before, it seems it would make your goals as a transit advocate much easier to accomplish in the long run.
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Old November 29th, 2007, 05:34 AM   #1616
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I wasn't asking you to disprove greg_christine so much as proving your own point. It's unfortunate that the data isn't as easily available anymore though. It would make backing up your assertions a lot easier, and in turn help greg_christine understand what you're saying. I'm not going to address the "side" thing. It's pointless to argue semantics and it would derail the thread.

For the record, I understand what you're saying about the costs being distributed over agencies and over time, and therefore not reflected in the capital costs as reported by Sound Transit. One of the biggest problems in shaping public policy, for any field, but in our case, transportation, is this distribution of costs over place and time. It requires a lot of effort on the part of the layman to 1) understand where and when those costs are incurred and 2) compile that data to shape an informed opinion. Most people don't have the time or inclination to actively do this. I know I don't, and therefore while understanding your points but not having the data can neither agree or disagree in this particular case (buses vs rail).

One question, I pose to you, UrbanBen, is that, as a transit advocate, why would it be a waste of effort to have this compilation of costs readily at hand to you personally? If it's already been done, and was available at one time, presumably one could request it from Sound Transit or any other agency that's responsible for that information. My point in asking is that, as I said before, it seems it would make your goals as a transit advocate much easier to accomplish in the long run.
The answer to your question is - I am in the process of getting that data, actually, and the projections into the future. The problem is, the only people making these arguments won't believe Sound Transit's projections anyway, so it is actually a waste of effort. The best transit advocacy has nothing to do with data, it has to do with selling a look and feel. Nobody votes based on the cost-effectiveness of a particular system.
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Old November 29th, 2007, 07:04 AM   #1617
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The answer to your question is - I am in the process of getting that data, actually, and the projections into the future. The problem is, the only people making these arguments won't believe Sound Transit's projections anyway, so it is actually a waste of effort. The best transit advocacy has nothing to do with data, it has to do with selling a look and feel. Nobody votes based on the cost-effectiveness of a particular system.
You probably do (on a more complex level).

I (and probably many others) vote on how far a line stretches and how much we have to pay.

[Disregard] Ahh, forget it...

Last edited by taiwanesedrummer36; November 29th, 2007 at 07:51 AM.
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Old November 29th, 2007, 07:21 AM   #1618
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Originally Posted by UrbanBen View Post
The answer to your question is - I am in the process of getting that data, actually, and the projections into the future. The problem is, the only people making these arguments won't believe Sound Transit's projections anyway, so it is actually a waste of effort. The best transit advocacy has nothing to do with data, it has to do with selling a look and feel. Nobody votes based on the cost-effectiveness of a particular system.
One advantage is that the data will span multiple agencies, and therefore should have more credibility, though with the historical and current opinion of transportation issues in this region, I doubt that'll actually hold true. Indeed, you are absolutely right about people not voting based on cost-effectiveness, which is an unfortunate human reality that will never change.

For the purposes of this thread though, it seems many of us are interested in the data, so it might have some use there, and people who actively participate in this discussion seem to be the few that do look at these factors when voting. But you're right. Wide spread usage of the data will probably be slim.

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Can we please get back to light rail?
I'm sorry for mildly side-tracking the thread, but it is somewhat related.
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Last edited by Jaxom92; November 29th, 2007 at 07:22 AM. Reason: Adding response to taiwanesedrummer36
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Old November 29th, 2007, 08:22 AM   #1619
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I'm sorry for mildly side-tracking the thread, but it is somewhat related.
Well, it was worth a shot...

...here are some more pictures I found of the Central Link construction by Peter deLory, a professional photographer working with Sound Transit to track construction progress:























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Old November 29th, 2007, 09:23 PM   #1620
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Yeah, he does some great photos. He's a professional, so they all have an artistic flavor to them.
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