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Old November 29th, 2007, 10:33 PM   #1621
UrbanBen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxom92 View Post
One advantage is that the data will span multiple agencies, and therefore should have more credibility, though with the historical and current opinion of transportation issues in this region, I doubt that'll actually hold true. Indeed, you are absolutely right about people not voting based on cost-effectiveness, which is an unfortunate human reality that will never change.

For the purposes of this thread though, it seems many of us are interested in the data, so it might have some use there, and people who actively participate in this discussion seem to be the few that do look at these factors when voting. But you're right. Wide spread usage of the data will probably be slim.



I'm sorry for mildly side-tracking the thread, but it is somewhat related.
I think that the people here who care most about that data are the ones least likely to let it affect their opinion.
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Old November 29th, 2007, 10:45 PM   #1622
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Are there people who oppose the tramline? Why?
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Old November 30th, 2007, 02:24 AM   #1623
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Are there people who oppose the tramline? Why?
Because there's been a concerted disinformation campaign, and because nobody here has experienced one.
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Old November 30th, 2007, 05:44 AM   #1624
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Regarding the numbers that I have recently posted from Sound Transit reports regarding the relative cost of Sounder and the ST Express Bus service, I feel as though I've just told a small child that there is no Santa Claus!

The truth is that if I still lived in the Seattle area I probably would have voted for the recent Roads and Transit ballot measure even though I considered it to have major flaws. I consider rail transit to be an amenity that adds value to a metropolitan area in ways that cannot be quantified in terms of dollars. I do not try to delude myself into thinking that trains are cheaper than buses. Indeed, Sound Transit does not make any such claim. For both the trans-Lake Washington branch of Central Link and the First Hill Streetcar, Sound Transit has issued reports that show buses to be cheaper than rail, yet Sound Transit has decided to pursue the rail option anyway.
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Old November 30th, 2007, 06:09 AM   #1625
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OMG, this won't end, will it?
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Old November 30th, 2007, 06:48 AM   #1626
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taiwanesedrummer36 View Post


OMG, this won't end, will it?
I'm just having fun watching you guys burning through the pages on this thread :P Two and a half pages in only two days, not bad guys, not bad at all...
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Old November 30th, 2007, 09:56 PM   #1627
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
Regarding the numbers that I have recently posted from Sound Transit reports regarding the relative cost of Sounder and the ST Express Bus service, I feel as though I've just told a small child that there is no Santa Claus!

The truth is that if I still lived in the Seattle area I probably would have voted for the recent Roads and Transit ballot measure even though I considered it to have major flaws. I consider rail transit to be an amenity that adds value to a metropolitan area in ways that cannot be quantified in terms of dollars. I do not try to delude myself into thinking that trains are cheaper than buses. Indeed, Sound Transit does not make any such claim. For both the trans-Lake Washington branch of Central Link and the First Hill Streetcar, Sound Transit has issued reports that show buses to be cheaper than rail, yet Sound Transit has decided to pursue the rail option anyway.
Sound Transit has issued reports that say that building and maintaining a new operations base is more expensive than the marginal cost of adding buses to existing operations bases (duh). That's the first hill streetcar.

For East Link, cost per rider was lower for rail than for rail-convertible BRT.

For basically any system, once you build rail, it becomes cheaper per rider than buses to operate because it moves a lot more people. Rail generates its own ridership growth - and it's perfectly quantifiable. You just have to pay attention to your guideway.
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Old December 1st, 2007, 02:03 AM   #1628
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Love the pictures! I love one of these artworks that just installed (one of these pictures shows it)!

I understand that many people are skeptical about Sound Transit light rail projects because we don't have it in operate right now yet. Most of people like some of you here will changed the minds once light rail opens in 2009. That will convince more people to change their minds after they ride it and see the result.
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Old December 1st, 2007, 02:56 AM   #1629
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Another picture of Airport link construction. Still think it's going kind of slow...
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Old December 1st, 2007, 03:05 AM   #1630
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Quote:
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Another picture of Airport link construction. Still think it's going kind of slow...
I think you'll always find a reason to hate. The reality is, no one else could do it faster.
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Old December 1st, 2007, 04:45 AM   #1631
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I think you'll always find a reason to hate. The reality is, no one else could do it faster.
Are you sure?
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Old December 1st, 2007, 07:56 AM   #1632
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Quote:
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Are you sure?
*waves Canadian/BC flag*
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Old December 1st, 2007, 11:36 AM   #1633
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanBen View Post
I think you'll always find a reason to hate. The reality is, no one else could do it faster.
That's right because that airport station used to be part of the highway section which they had to remove and move around the soil and level it and now they have support posts for the station popping up. They will pick up quickly since they're in this phrase now. It's only been roughly a year after they broke ground on the new highway loop/light rail construction.
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Old December 1st, 2007, 06:34 PM   #1634
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The Kinkisharyo light rail vehicles being supplied to Sound Transit are sleek and attractive; however, the paint scheme does little for their appearance:



I am not sure if the pattern is supposed to represent mountains or waves. Perhaps it is supposed to suggest both.

The paint scheme for the new light rail system being built in Norfolk was recently revealed:



The Norfolk wave paint scheme is much more attractive.
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Old December 1st, 2007, 06:36 PM   #1635
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For anyone who is still interested in this subject, the following are some cost comparisons from various studies for rail and BRT in the same corridor:

VANCOUVER - COQUITLAM/EVERGREEN LINE
- Capital Cost
Guided Buses: $285 Million
Light Rail: $670 Million
Skytrain: $840 Million
- Operations and Maintenance Costs per Passenger Boarding
Guided Buses: $4.10 /Passenger
Light Rail: $6.95 /Passenger
Skytrain: $4.30 /Passenger
- Selected Mode
Light Rail

LAS VEGAS - HENDERSON TO NORTH LAS VEGAS
- Capital Cost
Bus Rapid Transit: $700 Million
Light Rail: $1,115 Million
- Operations & Maintenance Cost
Bus Rapid Transit: $218 Million/Year
Light Rail: $203 Million/Year
- Selected Mode
Bus Rapid Transit

SAN JOSE - WARM SPRINGS BART CONNECTOR
- Capital Cost
Busway BRT: $1,155 Million
Light Rail: $1,514 Million
BART: $3,710 Million
- Operations & Maintenance Cost
Busway BRT: $19.5 Million/Year
Light Rail: $41.8 Million/Year
BART: $63.0 Million/Year
- Selected Mode:
BART

NEWPORT NEWS, VIRGINIA
- Capital Cost
Bus Rapid Transit: $178 Million
Light Rail: $250 Million
- Operations & Maintenance Cost
Bus Rapid Transit: $4.7 Million/Year
Light Rail: $9 Million/Year
- Selected Mode
No decision yet.

SEATTLE - I-90 TRANS-LAKE WASHINGTON LINE
- Capital Cost
Busway BRT: $3.1 - $4.2 Billion
Rail Convertible BRT: $3.7 - $5.0 Billion
Light Rail: $4.6 - $6.2 Billion
- Operations & Maintenance Cost (Net change relative to common baseline)
Busway BRT: -$5.5 million/year
Rail Convertible BRT: -$17.2 Million/Year
Light Rail: +$29.0 Million/Year
- Selected Mode:
Light Rail

SEATTLE - CAPITOL HILL STREETCAR STUDY
- Capital Cost
Streetcar: $129.7 - $149.2 million
Electric Trolley Bus: $13.4 - $15.4 million
- Annual Operating Cost:
Streetcar: $5.2 million
Electric Trolley Bus: $3.5 million
- Selected Mode
Streetcar

The thing to note from the above is that the decision of which transit mode to use seldom seems to hinge on cost.
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Old December 1st, 2007, 08:39 PM   #1636
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
The thing to note from the above is that the decision of which transit mode to use seldom seems to hinge on cost.
It usually does - it's just that the agencies sit down and say "Okay, where are these costs going to trend?" Vegas is an anomaly - a system in which LRT would have become more cost effective in only 28 years is a no-brainer, they're just scared because of how the monorail turned out.

I'm sorry I can't fix the transit agencies to make them defend themselves - you saw that Sound Transit did basically nothing during the election cycle. The agencies are terrified of interacting with the public.

Just for a few of these:
- For Evergreen Line, LRT cost per boarding will drop because ridership will increase faster over time than BRT, and BRT cost per boarding will increase with fuel prices. I think that comparison is based on much cheaper oil than we have today, as well.
- For the First Hill Streetcar, the capital cost for the maintenance base is a lot of the streetcar cost, compared to adding a few buses to Atlantic Base in south Seattle. Ridership for a streetcar will be higher immediately *and* increase faster.
- For I-90 (East Link), light rail would interline with Central Link, adding otherwise unfeasible capacity to the highest ridership corridor from downtown to Northgate. BRT would necessitate a transfer and cut ridership dramatically, plus it wouldn't scale, and the opportunity cost of having to repave the corridor in the future is staggering.

It's the same for most of these.

Last edited by UrbanBen; December 1st, 2007 at 08:48 PM.
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Old December 1st, 2007, 11:40 PM   #1637
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For Evergreen Line, LRT cost per boarding will drop because ridership will increase faster over time than BRT, and BRT cost per boarding will increase with fuel prices. I think that comparison is based on much cheaper oil than we have today, as well.


Not to mention that the government has said it will cost more like 900 million to build now thanks to increased construction costs. Seriously I do not oppose LRT, but for this corridor Skytrain is a much better idea. LRT if used should be for Surrey and Langely.
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Old December 1st, 2007, 11:41 PM   #1638
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For Evergreen Line, LRT cost per boarding will drop because ridership will increase faster over time than BRT, and BRT cost per boarding will increase with fuel prices. I think that comparison is based on much cheaper oil than we have today, as well.

Not to mention that the government has said it will cost more like 900 million to build now thanks to increased construction costs. Seriously I do not oppose LRT, but for this corridor Skytrain is a much better idea. LRT if used should be for Surrey and Langely.
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Old December 1st, 2007, 11:45 PM   #1639
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_christine View Post
The Kinkisharyo light rail vehicles being supplied to Sound Transit are sleek and attractive; however, the paint scheme does little for their appearance:



I am not sure if the pattern is supposed to represent mountains or waves. Perhaps it is supposed to suggest both.

The paint scheme for the new light rail system being built in Norfolk was recently revealed:



The Norfolk wave paint scheme is much more attractive.
are you serious? the central composion and symmetry is no good on the norfolk design. the waves look like they are forcefully trying to go in opposite directions totally taking away from the whole point of a wave design. seattle's is way more subtle. i mean looking at the two pictures juxtaposed, the norfolk design looks almost outdated. i'd say the only saving grace is the black windows which look sleek, but damn, they took that wave thing way too seriously.
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Old December 1st, 2007, 11:51 PM   #1640
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The Tide??? That's a terrible name.
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