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Old March 22nd, 2016, 12:28 AM   #2381
BriedisUnIzlietne
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There are plenty fish in the sea Bombardier[..], Siemens[..], CAF,[..] Alstom
So in what way is it different from Hitachi? It's just another foreign manufacturer with a factory in Britain. None of the others would solve the issue that Britain no longer has any major local manufacturers.
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What is so awesome about that? For a country which invented railways purchasing of new trains from abroad [..]. [..] hurray for few assembly jobs created in Britain
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Old March 22nd, 2016, 02:41 AM   #2382
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So in what way is it different from Hitachi? It's just another foreign manufacturer with a factory in Britain. None of the others would solve the issue that Britain no longer has any major local manufacturers.
There are two differences. First of all Bombardier has its factory in Britain where Electrostars, Tube stock and recently Aventra EMUs are manufactured from scratch but this company is struggling to get orders despite producing decent trains for reasonable money. Maybe they are trying to get better money through higher prices but it also may be because securing jobs isn’t so media friendly as creating new ones even as in effect you will lose double of that in present facility. Due to that this factory is working only on half the potential capacity. Secondly ordering trains within EU (in which Britain still is member) means that money stay in that block which means that You are reducing need for direct bail out of France or Spain while Germany redistributes it along EU so this all goes to development of Europe where British for example are spending vacations. Meanwhile ordering rolling stock in Japan means that You transfer money outside Britain, outside EU to the country on second side of the world for what purpose?
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Old March 22nd, 2016, 03:23 AM   #2383
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Right, so you're happy so long as it's supporting Europe. Gottcha.

Mind you, Bombardier are not European either, so ultimately profits go over to Canada in exactly the same way as Hitachi's profits are ultimately ending up in Japan. I don't see how the situation is so different to be honest...
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Old March 22nd, 2016, 03:30 AM   #2384
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Of course, this is just in theory, since actual ownership of these companies is maddening to try and figure out. In some ways, the Toyota Camry is more American than the Ford F-150!
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Old March 22nd, 2016, 11:22 AM   #2385
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Some bizarre comments in this thread recently. Why on earth shouldn't the UK rail operators buy some Hitachi trains? Would Richard_P also criticise European airlines who buy Boeing planes in the same way?

The alternative Bombadier isn't even a European company either, not that this should matter in the decision.
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Old March 22nd, 2016, 02:33 PM   #2386
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Right, so you're happy so long as it's supporting Europe. Gottcha.
And thanks to such attitude Brexit is more than welcomed by both sides. Cameron received clear sign from Merkel – either integrate with Europe or leave it returning to EFTA relations.

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Mind you, Bombardier are not European either, so ultimately profits go over to Canada in exactly the same way as Hitachi's profits are ultimately ending up in Japan. I don't see how the situation is so different to be honest...
You are fully wrong in that matter. First of all Bombardier Transportation is registered in Germany with some royalties going to Canada most of money remain in Europe. Secondly You don't have a clue how huge difference is between building from scratch and only assembly line. Thanks to Bombardier factory in Britain there is large number of smaller cooperating companies delivering parts and this is what builds economy. On other hand in Hitachi case not only core production but also components are sourced from Japan with minority value in assembly created in Britain. Difference between assembly and production is huge. There isn’t any country in the World which was able to build its economy based on assembly and Britain with its high cost workforce won’t be an exception.

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Originally Posted by Jonesy55
Some bizarre comments in this thread recently.
Join HS2 thread there is only essential discussion going on

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Why on earth shouldn't the UK rail operators buy some Hitachi trains?
Mind that neither of British rail operators has the free will of selecting and purchasing of rolling stock which is fully controlled through the central government.

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Would Richard_P also criticise European airlines who buy Boeing planes in the same way?
Do you really think that taking example of aviation industry which due to its scale and complexity of the task is effectively served by 2 global companies is the right comparison to multi sourced rail industry?
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Old March 22nd, 2016, 02:59 PM   #2387
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Do you really think that taking example of aviation industry which due to its scale and complexity of the task is effectively served by 2 global companies is the right comparison to multi sourced rail industry?
Ok, so European companies should be criticised for buying Japanese or American cars?

I just don't see why you think there is some sort of obligation to buy trains from a European company (Bombardier is Canadian anyway, who are the shareholders of German-registered Bombardier Transportation? ) when European individuals, companies and governments buy non-European products of all kinds all the time, it's called trade.

If Hitachi is going to assemble trains in the UK or Italy anyway then I really don't see an issue at all, there is no obligation in any EU treaty to say that European purchasers must buy trains from European (or Canadian) manufacturers.

An extra player in the market will be a good thing increasing competition.
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Old March 22nd, 2016, 04:04 PM   #2388
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I just don't see why you think there is some sort of obligation to buy trains from a European company (Bombardier is Canadian anyway, who are the shareholders of German-registered Bombardier Transportation? ) when European individuals, companies and governments buy non-European products of all kinds all the time, it's called trade.
There isn't requirement for buying European products but tender procedures allow to shrink competition to EU and associate countries. Do you really think that this so called trade is fair when other participant is closed or severely protected? Apart from discussed Japan currently You have embargo imposed by Russia on trains, trams, busses, trucks or cars produced outside of Eurasian Customs Union (Russia, Belarus, Kazakhstan). In the same time Hungary contracted modernisation of 222 tube cars to Russian companies. USA has "Buy America" rule obligating for federally co-financed purchases to at least 60% product value to be created within this country which requires localisation of production plants there yet for Europe they delivered fully assembled Class 66 locos. Do You really think that trading on such rules is fair?
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Old March 22nd, 2016, 04:35 PM   #2389
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USA has "Buy America" rule obligating for federally co-financed purchases to at least 60% product value to be created within this country
Meanwhile a city here in Latvia bought 12 new Russian-built trams with EU co-funding... :/

Perhaps the laws should be more strict, at least regarding EU funding
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Old March 22nd, 2016, 04:47 PM   #2390
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I don't think pulling up the drawbridge and resorting to populist protectionism is the answer, rather the EU should be using it's negotiating power to get other countries to withdraw their own protectionist laws, and showing itself to be open as an example to follow is more likely to achieve that Imo than banning Japanese trains.
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Old March 22nd, 2016, 09:24 PM   #2391
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Historically UK has been poor at defending their own industry (except finance) and thus doesn't have a lot of it left. Countries on the continent have been better at it. Even small and super expensive Switzerland still has a significant manufacturing capability. UK decided that there is no need, services is the future. Maybe they are right and maybe not. We'll know for sure in another 20-30 years...
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Old March 23rd, 2016, 03:17 AM   #2392
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Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
And thanks to such attitude Brexit is more than welcomed by both sides. Cameron received clear sign from Merkel – either integrate with Europe or leave it returning to EFTA relations.
What does this have to do with Brexit?!

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Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
You are fully wrong in that matter. First of all Bombardier Transportation is registered in Germany with some royalties going to Canada most of money remain in Europe. Secondly You don't have a clue how huge difference is between building from scratch and only assembly line. Thanks to Bombardier factory in Britain there is large number of smaller cooperating companies delivering parts and this is what builds economy. On other hand in Hitachi case not only core production but also components are sourced from Japan with minority value in assembly created in Britain. Difference between assembly and production is huge. There isn’t any country in the World which was able to build its economy based on assembly and Britain with its high cost workforce won’t be an exception.
Bombardier Transportation is a fully owned subsidiary of Bombardier. Have they listed Bombardier Transportation as separate from the parent on the stock market yet? Last I read in the FT is that they are wholly listed on the TSX under the parent umbrella rather than having a separate listing. Really how separate are they truly? What makes you think they keep their profits in Europe?

As far as the tender itself goes, I'm kinda done with that. No matter your argument about "using EU firms", the fact is that the UK decided to go with these trains and clearly the tender suited them better than the competing tenders for whatever reason. If you're not British and/or you don't live in the country, then what right do you have to say what they should have done in terms of their procurement? Your IP address says you're not in the UK, so...
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Old March 23rd, 2016, 05:26 AM   #2393
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Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
USA has "Buy America" rule obligating for federally co-financed purchases to at least 60% product value to be created within this country
OMFG is this really a real argument??? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA *breathe* HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Reason #1 USA passenger rail sucks: Stupid FRA regulations
Reason #2: Buy America keeping us from easily getting (and reverse-engineering!) those nifty trainsets Siemens and Alstom keep making.
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Historically UK has been poor at defending their own industry (except finance) and thus doesn't have a lot of it left. Countries on the continent have been better at it. Even small and super expensive Switzerland still has a significant manufacturing capability. UK decided that there is no need, services is the future. Maybe they are right and maybe not. We'll know for sure in another 20-30 years...
To be fair different types of industry optimize at different scales. Markets for products like railroad cars truly are global (or at least continental) -- there aren't enough customers to sustain them otherwise. Contrast that with cars, where the optimal market size seems to be somewhat larger than a nation state but not quite the same size as a continent. Plenty of British cars that barely exist on the Continent, and vice versa; plenty of European cars that are literally unknown in the US.

British quality control in the '70s and '80s was, by all accounts, terribad, and the long-term ramification of that today is that they don't have the products to compete with the German or French today. For a market as small as train cars, you either have to do it well or your bad Yelp reviews will kill every customer you could possibly woo. Just look at AnsaldoBreda ... how are they even still in the business?
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Last edited by hammersklavier; March 23rd, 2016 at 05:34 AM.
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Old March 23rd, 2016, 05:40 AM   #2394
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AB sells to US.
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Old March 23rd, 2016, 02:26 PM   #2395
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What does this have to do with Brexit?!
And what does this vv have to do with anything?
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Originally Posted by Svartmetall
Your IP address says you're not in the UK, so...
Share with everybody why You spy forum users to extent of IP address checking? Is it that You lost all arguments and went to measures which quite frankly would be barely acceptable in communist countries? Well how pity of You


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If you're not British and/or you don't live in the country, then what right do you have to say what they should have done in terms of their procurement?
Well British have loooong tradition in telling other people what to do, maybe it's time to listen some others opinions. And BTW currently not living in that country doesn’t mean that You can't be there regularly for longer time periods. But yey I assume that after pulling out last resort measures “discussion” is over and either Your opinion will be adopted or everyone should be afraid Well done, long lived democracy and freedom of speech
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Old March 23rd, 2016, 05:55 PM   #2396
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Okay, so you pick up on the last point I made about where you are from and why you are so invested in the topic rather than addressing the point about Bombardier, who you were perfectly fine with winning the tender. Can you answer the question - how do you know the profits from Bombardier transportation remain in Europe?

I said there is no point discussing about the tender any more because we'll just go round in circles. Clearly the UK felt it was best to go this route. Whether or not you or I believe this to be right or wrong is a moot point now. If they feel it is best for their country then so be it. Just because it isn't best for Europe doesn't mean it's not best for them.

I do love the mewling cries for democracy when you are on a private forum, though. Bear in mind that you are here at the whim of Jan, the forum owner and have no rights here beyond those that are granted by him. There is no freedom of speech.

As for your IP address - well, as a moderator it is always worth checking when a user is being so obstreperous that the user isn't a returning or re-registered troll.
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Old March 23rd, 2016, 06:49 PM   #2397
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Can you answer the question - how do you know the profits from Bombardier transportation remain in Europe?
...
I do love the mewling cries for democracy when you are on a private forum, though....There is no freedom of speech.
So why bother answering as there is clearly either Your opinion or nothing else... .

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Clearly the UK felt it was best to go this route. Whether or not you or I believe this to be right or wrong is a moot point now. If they feel it is best for their country then so be it. Just because it isn't best for Europe doesn't mean it's not best for them.
And here You have answered immanent Brexit issue.

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Bear in mind that you are here at the whim of Jan, the forum owner and have no rights here beyond those that are granted by him.
Yes from January 2014! That’s over 2 years!

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As for your IP address - well, as a moderator it is always worth checking when a user is being so obstreperous that the user isn't a returning or re-registered troll.
After over 2 years of activity, over 2000 posts and over 800 likes I must be for sure a re-emerged troll - give a break. And as for IP just check those from October and then judge whether You pulled it right in this discussion... .
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Old March 23rd, 2016, 07:56 PM   #2398
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Never seen you before, so I have no clue who you are, despite being here for 7 years longer than you. My first interaction with you was you jumping down peoples throats on a very minor issue and bringing up Japanese war crimes in WWII, so what on earth was I meant to think about you? It's hardly the best tone to witness from a user that you have never met before is it? Can you perhaps wonder that I didn't do a bit of checking about you and your posting history based on that?

As you can see, you've dodged the point yet again, and are now just derailing the thread, no pun intended. Instead of attacking me and whining about "my way or no way" can you please stick to the topic and answer the question about Bombardier, either that or move on with another topic or at least reply with SOME reference to the topic at hand. I don't care if you dislike me or whatever or find my posting to be rude, but at least stick to topic, please?
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Old March 27th, 2016, 04:28 AM   #2399
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I noticed there is no direct rail line between Leicester and Northampton.
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Old March 27th, 2016, 05:20 AM   #2400
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I noticed there is no direct rail line between Leicester and Northampton.
Nope, and there probably won't be one. Big earner for Stagecoach who always used to run the express bus between the two. It's how I got to Leicester when I lived there.
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