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Old December 3rd, 2008, 02:31 AM   #241
sotonsi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
People easily neglect the fact that HS1 was only necessary due to the souteastern railways having an ultra-restrictive gauge.
err, not entirely - capacity was a big issue (otherwise why not just make the railway a bigger gauge from the Maidstone area to Cheriton, where lines run side by side), as was having to have dual voltage, restricting stock.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
A problem with building completely new HSR in the UK is precisely that everywhere that seems to be a good plasce to build one already has a double track railway that can be upgraded at a fraction of the cost.
err, upgraded at a fraction of the cost - did you see the cost of the WCML upgrades? Do you even understand the problem? You could, I guess, 4 track the Chiltern ML, however why follow the alignment through towns, why not avoid having to demolish stations and buildings when isn't necessary, and there's a shorter alignment without the noise, etc problems. Capacity is clearly needed, speed is a bit more optional. Upgrades will do nothing but cause delays for years and provide little benefit, especially considering the GWML example you give below.
Quote:
Padington-Reading = 55km = 4 tracks ... why are 2 of them not at least at 140mph/250kph ??? (actually the speed there is of 125mph)
signalling rules, mixed traffic (90mph and 100mph trains also run on the fasts.
Quote:
London-Bristol is only 190km ... well under the 1h travel time in a nonstop train ... or even with a stop at reading ... reported to be 1h21 currently
approaches to stations and stops and pad out time and you can easily make up a good 15-20 minutes. I don't think Paddington has full 200km/h (surely, as someone who would work with metric all the time, you'd know that there's no such thing as kph) until quite a way out, especially heading townbound. Add to that the slower trains that might hold stuff up and you have an answer.
Quote:
London-Swindon = 4 track 2 of wich could easily be put at "above" 125mph if desired
really? at the cost of a good couple of billion, even ignoring signalling, plus another load for electrification (£8 billion or so) as no diesel train does more than 125mph. Not to mention the loss of flexibility, the problems of Reading-London capacity on both fasts and slows and the fact that the benefits will certainly not justify the cost - it would be nearly as cheap to have a new 300kph line, doubling the difference in speed and freeing up a shed load of capacity between Reading and Paddington.
Quote:
an hourly service under the 1h travel time would be very competitive
a couple of aditional services with some intermediate stops would also be competitive at the 1h travel time
LOL - do you have a clue?
It's getting on for two hours by car - there's no competition for speed. Add to that half-hourly services via Bath, and half-hourly services to Wales (stopping at Bristol Parkway) and 1tph is a complete and utter joke!
Quote:
Pay the price to upgrade to 300kph ??? to gain some 10/20 minutes ???
almost cheaper to build a new line and certainly less hassle and more flexibility and capacity... Look at the WCML upgrades, think about the fact that it costs as much per mile to add a forth lane on a motorway as to build a parallel motorway. Stuff like closing the railway for weekends over the course of several years cause all sorts of problems and financial penalties. A new Western HSL would be done quicker. The thing is is that it's not really needed. For capacity reasons, I can see plans for a Reading-Heathrow (plug into HSL network there) line to give more capacity, with trains going on to Portsmouth, Southampton, Swansea and Bristol via Bath (maybe Plymouth and Penzance, though that would involve lots of work around Dawlish)
Quote:
London-Birmingham is operated with half hourly frequencies by two different companies ... one in the express 1h30 time and another in a regional 2h30 time.
Virgin will be 3tph very soon, and you've forgotten either Chiltern or London Midland. It's much more like 6 or 7 rather busy trains, with the problem of further up being busy and also further in needing more trains (Bedford will get at least 10tph to London at peaks in 7 years time, Milton Keynes looks set for about 6tph, despite being bigger) Any London-Birmingham HSL would be for capacity, as it's very limited at the moment.

In summary, you have no idea what you are talking about and have made no effort to read what has been said before.
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Old December 3rd, 2008, 03:15 AM   #242
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Just let me say that YOUR problems in the UK are also OUR problems here in Portugal ... and we just took the easy way out ... and are to build a completely new HSR network due to the same problems that you have over there.

- bad planing that mixes HST and regional/freight traffic on the fast tracks
- little upgrades that turn into full railway reconstruction
- major infraestructure renewal to acomodate a simple "tilt" that cost as much as the building of an adjoining track
- etc , etc , etc


About the HS1 ... welll ... if the tracks from Ashford continued to follow the old railway alignement the 1st little obstacle would be at Tonbridge some 40km away ... considering that the current layout exits Ashford tru a 600m tunnel , has half a dozen smaller ones and 35km due north has a 3km long tunnel ... and has a bridge at every 500m or so ... this of course without even getting 1km away from the old railway for most of its course.
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Old December 3rd, 2008, 03:56 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
err, not entirely - capacity was a big issue (otherwise why not just make the railway a bigger gauge from the Maidstone area to Cheriton, where lines run side by side), as was having to have dual voltage, restricting stock.
IT all cames in the package of the ultra restrictive gauge.

Quote:
err, upgraded at a fraction of the cost - did you see the cost of the WCML upgrades? Do you even understand the problem? You could, I guess, 4 track the Chiltern ML, however why follow the alignment through towns, why not avoid having to demolish stations and buildings when isn't necessary, and there's a shorter alignment without the noise, etc problems. Capacity is clearly needed, speed is a bit more optional. Upgrades will do nothing but cause delays for years and provide little benefit, especially considering the GWML example you give below.
The HS1 is a bad example because it is one of those cases where a completely different railway in a completely different alignement is used to replace another railway that would not gain as much from having a HSR nearby.

If the new HSL would follow the route to Waterloo there would be not enough gains as to justify it ... this considering the old route vs. new route aproach.

In this chosen alignement it is indeed a great adiction to the existing network.

Quote:
signalling rules, mixed traffic (90mph and 100mph trains also run on the fasts.
4 tracks , room to improvements on both fast and slow ... actualy it seems to be the easiest place to create an aditional HSL in the hearth of england.

Quote:
approaches to stations and stops and pad out time and you can easily make up a good 15-20 minutes. I don't think Paddington has full 200km/h
I considered the optimal timings using 2 out of the 4 tracks at speeds of 140mph (or above) ... it's a prime candidate

Quote:
(surely, as someone who would work with metric all the time, you'd know that there's no such thing as kph)
I just checked and I don't know why but halfway thu this evening i started to write kph after i corrected a km/h/mph in a random post somewhere ... must bee either the booze , too much booze or not enough booze.

Quote:
until quite a way out, especially heading townbound. Add to that the slower trains that might hold stuff up and you have an answer.
really? at the cost of a good couple of billion, even ignoring signalling, plus another load for electrification (£8 billion or so) as no diesel train does more than 125mph. Not to mention the loss of flexibility, the problems of Reading-London capacity on both fasts and slows and the fact that the benefits will certainly not justify the cost - it would be nearly as cheap to have a new 300kph line, doubling the difference in speed and freeing up a shed load of capacity between Reading and Paddington.
Either you remove the need for capacity by not calling at intermediate stops or you remove the gains to traffic other than HST by not upgrading the route ... none seem to be of much gain in a "feeder" stile network such as the GWR.

London-Newbury
London-Oxford
London-Gloucester
London-Cn-Sodbury-Bristol
London-Bath-Bristol
London-Southampton(*)
London-Exeter

By themselves neither would justify a completely new route.

Quote:
LOL - do you have a clue?
It's getting on for two hours by car - there's no competition for speed. Add to that half-hourly services via Bath, and half-hourly services to Wales (stopping at Bristol Parkway) and 1tph is a complete and utter joke!
1tph DIRECT NONSTOP from Paddington to Bristol ... and much more than half hourly to any of the destinations named above.

Quote:
almost cheaper to build a new line and certainly less hassle and more flexibility and capacity... Look at the WCML upgrades, think about the fact that it costs as much per mile to add a forth lane on a motorway as to build a parallel motorway. Stuff like closing the railway for weekends over the course of several years cause all sorts of problems and financial penalties. A new Western HSL would be done quicker. The thing is is that it's not really needed. For capacity reasons, I can see plans for a Reading-Heathrow (plug into HSL network there) line to give more capacity, with trains going on to Portsmouth, Southampton, Swansea and Bristol via Bath (maybe Plymouth and Penzance, though that would involve lots of work around Dawlish)
London-Reading-Bristol = 4 tracks 125mph
London-Ascot-Reading-Newbury-bath-Bristol
London-Basingstoke-Salisbury-Bath-Bristol/Exeter
etc etc etc

the capacity is there ... just need to use it properly.

And the notion that just adding another parallel railway will solve the problem seems to stop being a solution more than 100 years ago ... when they run out of places to build new ones in the UK.

Quote:
Virgin will be 3tph very soon, and you've forgotten either Chiltern or London Midland. It's much more like 6 or 7 rather busy trains, with the problem of further up being busy and also further in needing more trains (Bedford will get at least 10tph to London at peaks in 7 years time, Milton Keynes looks set for about 6tph, despite being bigger) Any London-Birmingham HSL would be for capacity, as it's very limited at the moment.
Trains run at 3 minutes intervals in most places ... that would mean 20 trains each direction on 2 tracks only ... WCML has how many tracks to spare for the rest ??? and the routes via Banbury Oxford and Kettering are deplected of throught services ...

Quote:
In summary, you have no idea what you are talking about and have made no effort to read what has been said before.


Considering only what I learned by looking around while I travelled over there I guarantee you that there is a lot of room to improvements on the current infraestructure alone ... let the building of new HSL for another century ...

Just found another lapse here ... 250km/h is not 140mph as I erroneously stated back there ... its 156mph
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Last edited by sotavento; December 3rd, 2008 at 04:06 AM.
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Old December 3rd, 2008, 12:30 PM   #244
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Old December 3rd, 2008, 12:31 PM   #245
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Old December 3rd, 2008, 12:34 PM   #246
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Hello all

It's been a while since I lived in England (for about six months in 2002 - Loughborough, Leicestershire) and I have a couple of questions I was hoping you could answer.

1) Has the quality of rail travel in the UK improved? I remember there was a lot of talk in the media back then about the necessity to do something about the country's rail infrastructure. Has it happened yet? I remember the frequency and connectivity (being able to get to where you need to be via train) didn't strike me as particularly poor. The cost-quality (ride comfort) ratio however, did. Did it at least get cheaper?

2) Why do all plans for a high speed network include two North-South links? One via the East coast and one via the West coast. It seems to me if all those plans keep failing to gather enough support to actually be carried out; wouldn't a single line alternative stand a better chance? If you were to use France's vision with spread out TGV stations per 'region' where you can transfer to a high-quality regional network - then how about one high speed line from London to Scotland with stops at St Pancras - Birmingham - Manchester - Leeds - Newcastle - Edinburgh (possible extention to Glasgow)?
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Old December 3rd, 2008, 12:37 PM   #247
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Old December 3rd, 2008, 12:42 PM   #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
A problem with building completely new HSR in the UK is precisely that everywhere that seems to be a good plasce to build one already has a double track railway that can be upgraded at a fraction of the cost.
No, not at all. Not in the slightest.

One of the main reasons, as I have just stated, is capacity increase.

Upgrades do not come at a fraction of the cost either, just look at the £8bn required to get a 13.6% linespeed increase on the WCML.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
People easily neglect the fact that HS1 was only necessary due to the souteastern railways having an ultra-restrictive gauge.
Even though HS1 opened a decade after the CTRL? Gauge was not a problem. eurostar ran on southeastern tracks, as does (still) all channel tunnel freight. I've told you this before as well.


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Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
About the HS1 ... welll ... if the tracks from Ashford continued to follow the old railway alignement the 1st little obstacle would be at Tonbridge some 40km away ... considering that the current layout exits Ashford tru a 600m tunnel , has half a dozen smaller ones and 35km due north has a 3km long tunnel ... and has a bridge at every 500m or so ... this of course without even getting 1km away from the old railway for most of its course.
The problem is there is no space. Tonbridge station would have to be demolished. that line was built in the 1840s and there are lots of picturesque villages with listed cottages right next to the track. Its ano brainer. Add to that the existing tracks can not be upgraded because there is a train every 5 minutes in th erush hour between Tonbridge and London via Sevenoaks - its just not feasable.

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Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
Just let me say that YOUR problems in the UK are also OUR problems here in Portugal ... and we just took the easy way out ... and are to build a completely new HSR network due to the same problems that you have over there.
Didn't you just argue that the best thing for the UK to do was not to build HSR? Make your mind up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post


London-Reading-Bristol = 4 tracks 125mph
London-Ascot-Reading-Newbury-bath-Bristol
London-Basingstoke-Salisbury-Bath-Bristol/Exeter
etc etc etc

the capacity is there ... just need to use it properly.
You are so misinformed its funny.

2 tracks 125 mph. Slow lines typically 75 - 90 mph.

NOT 4 tracks Didcot to Swindon, mainly only 2, actually.

The capacity is not there. Are you factoring in freight?

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Old December 3rd, 2008, 02:44 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
1) Has the quality of rail travel in the UK improved? I remember there was a lot of talk in the media back then about the necessity to do something about the country's rail infrastructure. Has it happened yet? I remember the frequency and connectivity (being able to get to where you need to be via train) didn't strike me as particularly poor. The cost-quality (ride comfort) ratio however, did. Did it at least get cheaper?
Overall things are improving regarding the railways, though there is now the problem of capacity as the number of passengers and the amount of freight have both shot up in the past 5 years.

Ticket prices remain expensive and are nearly always rising above the rate of inflation. They can get away with that as the demand for rail travel is there. And there still needs to be much financial investment of course.
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Old December 3rd, 2008, 04:01 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
You are so misinformed its funny.
Indeed, using the via Ascot route as a main route to beyond Reading? Having trains going via Salisbury to Bristol... OK, both have been done in the last ten years - the former a diversion, the latter services dropped due to long journey times and lack of through routes.

I also love the idea of having Exeter-London services via Bristol - completly potty as a fast route, though not as potty as a via Kettering route to Birmingham.

And the complete ignorance of freight and heavy commuter workings on these lines, plus the completely rubbish assertion that there is no route to build another two track railway - there are several! It was indeed done in the past - the only problem being that they ended up as slow lines. However HSL wouldn't, and the classic lines tend to be 4 track anyway now.

It doesn't help that his English is so hard to deal with as he seems to be under the influence when writing (by his own admission).

In the GW corridor, I can only see electrification to Swansea/Bristol/Banbury/Bedwyn (because of Dawlish and because that has a decent lot of benefits). The plans for HSL in that corridor also only cover that area (and were a completely new line, with some interchange with the old line). I reckon HSL on that corridor is only worth it to give more capacity between London and Reading.
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Old December 3rd, 2008, 04:05 PM   #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
Hello all

It's been a while since I lived in England (for about six months in 2002 - Loughborough, Leicestershire) and I have a couple of questions I was hoping you could answer.

1) Has the quality of rail travel in the UK improved? I remember there was a lot of talk in the media back then about the necessity to do something about the country's rail infrastructure. Has it happened yet? I remember the frequency and connectivity (being able to get to where you need to be via train) didn't strike me as particularly poor. The cost-quality (ride comfort) ratio however, did. Did it at least get cheaper?
Its got much better. The only problem now is that non profit making routes dissapear and so are late night trains. They are geared towards profit making now so any public service thoughts are out the window. Some places dont have trains after 9pm - utterly useless. I cant get a train back up the ECML after 7pm from london sometimes. And local services tend to stop pretty early too. I think they should go til at least midnight everywhere. Ride comfort - well on some of the new trains its much improved. On others we need more capacity increases to stop the sardine can problem. Prices - they have apparently only gone up with inflation overall since privatisation. There are dirt cheap advance fairs, but anyone wanting to hop on or off whenever they like needs some serious cash.
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Old December 3rd, 2008, 05:23 PM   #252
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Indeed Sotonsi.

For anyone wishing to argue that there is plenty of capacity, and speaking from a misinformed perspective, Network Rail, the owners of the railway infrastructure in the UK, have loads of accessible documents going into very fine and studied details about every part of the country.

Business plans - yearly, every area.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/4451.aspx
Great Western route http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%...ain%20Line.pdf
Wessex Routes http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%...x%20Routes.pdf
Kent business plan that includes a map of gauge, route availablility etc. http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%...20-%20Kent.pdf

Route Utilisation Studies - more in depth, not all have been completed yet.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/4449.aspx

Freight RUS - study into usage of freight on entire network. Useful guides about gauge in there too. http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%...ight%20rus.pdf
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Old December 3rd, 2008, 09:28 PM   #253
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Its got much better. The only problem now is that non profit making routes dissapear and so are late night trains. They are geared towards profit making now so any public service thoughts are out the window. Some places dont have trains after 9pm - utterly useless. I cant get a train back up the ECML after 7pm from london sometimes. And local services tend to stop pretty early too. I think they should go til at least midnight everywhere. Ride comfort - well on some of the new trains its much improved. On others we need more capacity increases to stop the sardine can problem. Prices - they have apparently only gone up with inflation overall since privatisation. There are dirt cheap advance fairs, but anyone wanting to hop on or off whenever they like needs some serious cash.
That's too bad and reveals the problem with for profit rail service- the public interest is replaced with the profit motive and rail services that would help the commuting public are scuttled because they don't make enough money.

******* bastards Thatcher and Major. I wish that bitch would just die already.
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Old December 3rd, 2008, 10:33 PM   #254
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Dying is a bit harsh.

Yeah, Major and thatcher didn't do the railways many favours, but they did give us the channel tunnel, and if it wasn't for that we wouldn't have any HSR! Anyway, Labor have done their fair share of f'ing things up. They micro manage everything to the point where its not actually privatised in essence. The lack of late night trains is mainly down to department for transport requirements, and engineering works. Some local routes in the regions have suffered the worst sporadic services, but nearly everywhere else has seen better services pretty much.
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Old December 4th, 2008, 12:35 AM   #255
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No, not at all. Not in the slightest.

One of the main reasons, as I have just stated, is capacity increase.
the capacity doesn't increase if you just make a route on another alignement ... the majority of the traffic usually doesn't follow to the new alignement ... you just have another corridor with another traffic.

Quote:
Upgrades do not come at a fraction of the cost either, just look at the £8bn required to get a 13.6% linespeed increase on the WCML.
thats precisely why it is a failure as an upgrade ... you need more than track improvements to have increased capacity ... speed upgrades actualy DECREASE capacity ... L.Norte and WCML both suffer now from that failed view.

the faster the Intercity trains the fewer the total amount of trains you can squeeze in between them.

Quote:
Even though HS1 opened a decade after the CTRL? Gauge was not a problem. eurostar ran on southeastern tracks, as does (still) all channel tunnel freight. I've told you this before as well.
Loading Gauge ...

Quote:
The problem is there is no space. Tonbridge station would have to be demolished. that line was built in the 1840s and there are lots of picturesque villages with listed cottages right next to the track. Its ano brainer. Add to that the existing tracks can not be upgraded because there is a train every 5 minutes in th erush hour between Tonbridge and London via Sevenoaks - its just not feasable.
There are more complicated works in HS1 than those that would be needed to bypass tonbridge

A southern london exit would take no more mileage that the 20km of tunnels of HS1 ... most of it could use the current alignements.

that leaves only some 25km between Farnborough(?) and Tonbridge to deal with (the rest of the route could have simply be quadrupled) ... a simpe 1500m tunnel under tonbridge would solve almost all the problems in that sector ...

Compare it to the 3,2km tunnel neal rochester , the tunnel under the Thames and many other major engineering works on the HS1.

Anyway ... what I just said is another good adition to the network if someone decides to build it ... but in the end HS1 also is a good route and that can't be denied.

Quote:
Didn't you just argue that the best thing for the UK to do was not to build HSR? Make your mind up.
In my point of view the decision that was taken over here was a lowsy one ... they just decided half way to give up on one mistake and do another mistake instead.

Quote:
You are so misinformed its funny.

2 tracks 125 mph. Slow lines typically 75 - 90 mph.
I just said 4 tracks and top speed on the corridor.

Quote:
NOT 4 tracks Didcot to Swindon, mainly only 2, actually.

The capacity is not there. Are you factoring in freight?
Did you read my previous post ???

Quote:
the capacity is there ... just need to use it properly.

And the notion that just adding another parallel railway will solve the problem seems to stop being a solution more than 100 years ago ... when they run out of places to build new ones in the UK.
You have enough room to put aditional tracks in that particular section ...
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Old December 4th, 2008, 12:51 AM   #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
Indeed, using the via Ascot route as a main route to beyond Reading? Having trains going via Salisbury to Bristol... OK, both have been done in the last ten years - the former a diversion, the latter services dropped due to long journey times and lack of through routes.
Quote:
London-Reading-Bristol = 4 tracks 125mph
London-Ascot-Reading-Newbury-bath-Bristol
London-Basingstoke-Salisbury-Bath-Bristol/Exeter
etc etc etc

the capacity is there ... just need to use it properly.
Notice the difference:

London-Reading Bristol = 125mph
the remaining are just alternative routes.

Quote:
I also love the idea of having Exeter-London services via Bristol - completly potty as a fast route, though not as potty as a via Kettering route to Birmingham.
who ever spoke about a route to birmingham via Kettering ??? does the WCML only run to birmingham nowadays ???


I just said that the WCML has some nearby routes that tottaly lack trought services.

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And the complete ignorance of freight and heavy commuter workings on these lines, plus the completely rubbish assertion that there is no route to build another two track railway - there are several! It was indeed done in the past - the only problem being that they ended up as slow lines. However HSL wouldn't, and the classic lines tend to be 4 track anyway now.
I can tell you that I'm well aware of the tons of freight and commuter on the premices ... you lack big time in capacity management in british rails.

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It doesn't help that his English is so hard to deal with as he seems to be under the influence when writing (by his own admission).
How hard can it be??? 1/2 the people here on SSC can't even spell in english and you guys wan't me to speak in oxbridge ???

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In the GW corridor, I can only see electrification to Swansea/Bristol/Banbury/Bedwyn (because of Dawlish and because that has a decent lot of benefits). The plans for HSL in that corridor also only cover that area (and were a completely new line, with some interchange with the old line). I reckon HSL on that corridor is only worth it to give more capacity between London and Reading.
If you say so ...
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Old December 4th, 2008, 12:51 AM   #257
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He was meaning loading guage you tool. Eurostar is a HSR train. It went on the existing tracks, slower. (i see you just edited that bit out)

You quote people and reply with a line trying to justify you comment, but more often than not the comment doesnt do that, yet oyu seem to think it does.

A new line increases capacity. The WCML cost a lot and did increase capacity. It increased speeds by 25mph for 8bn. Old lines have level crossings and smaller guages, they are totally outdated and hence a lot of money to upgrade. Building a new track increases capacity much more than tacking on another two lines to an existing route. It also would result in faster trains.

Oh and as i have said before, your english is hard to comprehend that i dont think you even know what you are saying, you write in a fragmented form - i suspect you do this in portugese too.
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Old December 4th, 2008, 10:55 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
the capacity doesn't increase if you just make a route on another alignement ... the majority of the traffic usually doesn't follow to the new alignement ... you just have another corridor with another traffic.
Not in any of the proposals we have made in this country. If you want to argue with this point you are arguing with Network Rail, read the PDFs I posted and you will see that NR wants new routes to increase capacity on the old ones. Stop arguing over this, you are misinformed.


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thats precisely why it is a failure as an upgrade ... you need more than track improvements to have increased capacity ... speed upgrades actualy DECREASE capacity ... L.Norte and WCML both suffer now from that failed view.
So what is your point?

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the faster the Intercity trains the fewer the total amount of trains you can squeeze in between them.
I know. The wcml upgrade however does have more capcity because it included capacity improvements.



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Loading Gauge ...
Yes loading gauge, that is what I was talking about. Do you think I'm so stupid as to think you mean southeastern is a narrow gauge!? Eurostar and channel freight can go along the classic lines via Tonbridge, via Redhill, via Sevenoaks, via Orpington, via Maidstone and even via Bat & Ball. You are so wrong its funny.

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There are more complicated works in HS1 than those that would be needed to bypass tonbridge

A southern london exit would take no more mileage that the 20km of tunnels of HS1 ... most of it could use the current alignements.

that leaves only some 25km between Farnborough(?) and Tonbridge to deal with (the rest of the route could have simply be quadrupled) ... a simpe 1500m tunnel under tonbridge would solve almost all the problems in that sector ...

Compare it to the 3,2km tunnel neal rochester , the tunnel under the Thames and many other major engineering works on the HS1.

Anyway ... what I just said is another good adition to the network if someone decides to build it ... but in the end HS1 also is a good route and that can't be denied.
So what are you going on about it for then? I actually don't understand your point here at all.

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In my point of view the decision that was taken over here was a lowsy one ... they just decided half way to give up on one mistake and do another mistake instead.
Whatever.

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I just said 4 tracks and top speed on the corridor.
Which makes no difference to the fact that there isn't the capacity. Again you are wrong.


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Did you read my previous post ???
What I could understand of it....

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You have enough room to put aditional tracks in that particular section ...
So we need to build more tracks? OK, so thats what was proposed. I'll leave it to the engineers to decide whether that should go next to the existing track or somewhere else.
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Old December 4th, 2008, 10:57 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
I can tell you that I'm well aware of the tons of freight and commuter on the premices ... you lack big time in capacity management in british rails.
OK, so we all have to suffer your nonsense because of your misinformed opinion of it do we? You've just gone on my ignore list. Go away.
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Old December 4th, 2008, 11:09 PM   #260
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When Eurostar first started it used the classic lines, here's an old vid below. It used this route until 2003. This vid is from around the mid 90s. All Eurostars went from the Channel tunnel, to Ashford, then via Tonbridge, Sevenoaks, Orpington and Bromley South, except two trains that coincided with the rush hour in the morning, these went from Ashford to Bromey via Maidstone East, Otford and Swanley and took a good 10 minutes longer because of it.

At Headcorn;


Channel tunnel freight train going through Maidstone East

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