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Old December 31st, 2016, 12:19 PM   #2581
hammersklavier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Zy99 View Post
I am talking about an ENTIRELY DOMESTIC set of services. No security, no passports, nothing.

Glasgow-Brighton, Edinburgh-Portsmouth, Manchester-Folkestone. etc. etc. Various exact termini would be dependent on traffic patterns.

Wouldn't a set of power cars with ~8 trailers work? Maybe one power car could be converted into a passenger/baggage trailer? I suspect it would still be cheaper than building new EMU sets for the purpose.

Yes the market is not the biggest, but it would be a way to take advantage of existing capabilities cheaply. Trains would go around London on the WLL or maybe through Thameslink during the off-hours.
You're forgetting that insular British gauge is more restrictive than the continental gauge the Eurostars were built for. I'm not at all sure you can easily reuse the train sets on e.g. the ECML or WCML (although you could theoretically on HS2 if it were much more advanced than it currently is).
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Old December 31st, 2016, 02:56 PM   #2582
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Originally Posted by 00Zy99 View Post
The market might have changed since then, but I was actually thinking about domestic services along the Channel coast-Brighton, Portsmouth, Dover, etc.
Unless you use diesels and avoid London (and the growth in demand for Reading-Southampton-Bournemouth killed off the less popular Brighton, Gatwick and Portsmouth XC trains via Oxford and Guildford, so there are issues with demand and capacity there too), the market having changed means it's a forlorn hope for Sussex/Kent to North of London Intercity services. The most relevant market change is too much local demand on the WLL for such trains to get paths, but the growth in demand on the mainlines heading into/out of London means there's no room on them either.

Going through Thameslink won't be good operationally, ruling that out as well - dwell times for an Intercity train would be too high, even off-peak, to run the service well. And the performance pollution would be huge.

A nice idea (though not with Class 373 trains for the reasons Alex NL explains above - they are terrible trains for modern use), and clearly put*, but one that just won't work these days as there's no room for them on the railways (even though they would fit).

*I can't see how some people have so blatantly misunderstood you.
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Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
You're forgetting that insular British gauge is more restrictive than the continental gauge the Eurostars were built for.
Err, you do realise that Eurostars were built to run on British railways, as they had to use the SEML and Chatham ML/Catford Loop to get from the end of the continental gauge railway into Waterloo International?

Thameslink might provide some gauge issues, but the other lines suggested by 00Zy99 almost certainly won't. The Eurostar depot used to be at the north end of the WLL, for instance.
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Old December 31st, 2016, 03:35 PM   #2583
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Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
Eurostar TMST sets are heavy, rusting, power hungry, and totally inadequate for the ECML because of their internal configuration. The limited amount of external doors will mean long dwell times, something which is undesirable on a busy line and in busy termini.
Just like the Trains on the BR network today then! Apart from the speed.
More seats means more capacity, they ECML is set-up for faster running and only the Signalling prevented it from being so, these would be ERTMS ready for ECML conversion.
They have run them on the ECML already. And as they would be long Distance with few stops, trains dwell times aren't a problem it doesn't bother them in France, Germany, Italy or Holland. The doors are at the end of each coach, just like Pendolino's, 125's & the current HST on the ECML.
Scrapping a Train that could be put into service within 12 months seems a waste.
The Hitachi train is based on a Japanese train that has been built, put in service and scrapped in not so much longer time than it takes a UK train to leave the designers office & become operational.
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Old December 31st, 2016, 03:46 PM   #2584
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Originally Posted by Harbornite View Post
Alex has summed it up well. You are wrong in saying that they would be "far better" then anything else. GNER actually used some Eurostar sets on Leeds services for a while but they weren't that suitable.

Just accept the facts: the 373s are outdated, in need of overhaul, power hungry and generally unsuitable for the classic railway network.
You mean the outdated BR Network is even to archaic for something as old as this!!
We were still building Steam trains while the Japs were running the Bullet Train.
France was developing the TGV while we were lauding a 125 MPH Diesel Train.
This 30-40 year old ''Outdated train'' is comparatively light years ahead of what we run on the UK network.
IF HS2 ever arrives and runs. Mark my words Japan, China & the Continent will be on to the next Generation of Railway technology,
the UK will be still building to match what they did 50 years ago we could be 100 years behind them be the time it's finished.
What the UK needs to do is become inventive and consider Maglev technology at least to connect Londons Airports and then we may sell to the World rather than having to import everything This is including the skill & labour to build anything new.
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Old December 31st, 2016, 06:08 PM   #2585
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SalopianShrew View Post
You mean the outdated BR Network is even to archaic for something as old as this!!
We were still building Steam trains while the Japs were running the Bullet Train.
France was developing the TGV while we were lauding a 125 MPH Diesel Train.
This 30-40 year old ''Outdated train'' is comparatively light years ahead of what we run on the UK network.
IF HS2 ever arrives and runs. Mark my words Japan, China & the Continent will be on to the next Generation of Railway technology,
the UK will be still building to match what they did 50 years ago we could be 100 years behind them be the time it's finished.
What the UK needs to do is become inventive and consider Maglev technology at least to connect Londons Airports and then we may sell to the World rather than having to import everything This is including the skill & labour to build anything new.
Although I'm not a big fan of the UK, their railway has a lot of potential and they are doing something to make it better.

The alignment of their railways (London - Manchester and Leeds) are very straight, allowing trains in excess of 250km/h (RIGHT NOW), the reason they aren't doing it yet is the signalling, which I guess they are upgrading.

True, many of their trains are old, and diesel, but they are electrifying their railways. Sure, too slow, but still.

HS2 will be state of the art, 350km/h real speed (which is the fastest currently) and once it's operational, I guess they will be the only running this fast.

So, to resume, if they electrify their railways, remove overpasses, change some station layouts (for through service) and put EMTC on the main lines, they have a great railway (London - Edinbourg in 2 hours, Paris - Edinbourg in 4:20).
Lots of work, but doable)
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Old December 31st, 2016, 06:39 PM   #2586
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Zy99 View Post
I am talking about an ENTIRELY DOMESTIC set of services. No security, no passports, nothing.

Glasgow-Brighton, Edinburgh-Portsmouth, Manchester-Folkestone. etc. etc. Various exact termini would be dependent on traffic patterns.
That wasn't clear to me, I missed the word "domestic" in your previous post
Quote:
Wouldn't a set of power cars with ~8 trailers work? Maybe one power car could be converted into a passenger/baggage trailer? I suspect it would still be cheaper than building new EMU sets for the purpose.

Yes the market is not the biggest, but it would be a way to take advantage of existing capabilities cheaply. Trains would go around London on the WLL or maybe through Thameslink during the off-hours.
What value would there be in repurposing trainsets that are nearing 25 years of age for a job they were never designed for? It requires a lot of capital investment while the return on investment would be relatively low.

The UK is currently working on one of the largest fleet replacement programmes in a decade: the Intercity Express Programme. This is a fleet of brand new "go anywhere"-trains that are lighter, more energy efficient, and more up to date with the demands of today's passengers.

182 IEP trains have already been ordered by the DfT and the various TOC's, so why would anyone want to spend money on extensively refurbishing Eurostar sets when you can acquire new IEPs instead? The initial CapEx of ordering more IEPs might be higher, but these trains have a 30+ year life so there is a higher residiual value in them.

The Eurostar trainsets on the other hand have clocked up hundreds of thousands of miles, are in serious need of refurbishment (engines, rusting bodyshells, interior) and practical limitations limit where they can go. The GNER "White Rose" services couldn't run through Newcastle because of loading gauge restrictions. Also, where are you going to service them?
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Old December 31st, 2016, 06:47 PM   #2587
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Originally Posted by SalopianShrew View Post
What the UK needs to do is become inventive and consider Maglev technology at least to connect Londons Airports and then we may sell to the World rather than having to import everything This is including the skill & labour to build anything new.
Maglev has been proposed and thoroughly researched by the UK government (Tony Blair himself was excited about maglev), but it was ultimately shot down because Maglev would be much more expensive than HS2 and would not contribute to CO2 reductions at all.

Maglev requires more electricity (which would mostly be generated by coal power plants) and the stations couldn't be built in city centres, leading to people driving to them.

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Old December 31st, 2016, 10:35 PM   #2588
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[QUOTE=bifhihher;137475697]Although I'm not a big fan of the UK, their railway has a lot of potential and they are doing something to make it better.

The alignment of their railways (London - Manchester and Leeds) are very straight, allowing trains in excess of 250km/h (RIGHT NOW), the reason they aren't doing it yet is the signalling, which I guess they are upgrading.

True, many of their trains are old, and diesel, but they are electrifying their railways. Sure, too slow, but still.

HS2 will be state of the art, 350km/h real speed (which is the fastest currently) and once it's operational, I guess they will be the only running this fast.

So, to resume, if they electrify their railways, remove overpasses, change some station layouts (for through service) and put EMTC on the main lines, they have a great railway (London - Edinbourg in 2 hours, Paris - Edinbourg in 4:20).c
In other words completely different to how it is today.
Do you know how long things take to do on British Railways? You can treble the time it takes do even the smallest job if you need a Railwayman to do it. Then again with the cost.
From top to bottom it will need competent Government, Operating Companies and We are far from getting that yet.
From the bottom up to the top there are staff that have been employed directly due to being a descendant of someone already there. The salaries and conditions mean the Railway is sought after employment in many areas Yet even when they have the pick of good prospects this happens:-
The most bone-idle workers I know from School and work have got Job's on the Railway simply because their Dads', Uncle's or Grandfather work on it. Disciplinary measures are rare. There are generations working on it getting way with things they wouldn't anywhere else.
Outside Contractors myself being(and have worked on-train) one are often shocked by the practises carried out to ''look like a job's been done''
One example of a Ticket collector employed during my time:
The guy was a convicted Rapist, always getting fired from job's. His Dad was the guy interviewing prospective ticket collectors, he got the job over competent and honest people.
He went on to steal from the Collected Ticket fare, Sleep on trains to miss his shifts. They moved him on to Barrier work he did the same their. and still they still kept him on!!! as a Station Cleaner.
Someone who was honest and worked hard. Turned up late. He wasn't related to other Staff so was fired on the Spot!! By the father of the above.
This is indicative of the Railway Network. Its why nothing gets done and with a prevailing attitude of ''We cant do it'' throughout.

Last edited by SalopianShrew; December 31st, 2016 at 11:12 PM.
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Old December 31st, 2016, 10:54 PM   #2589
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[QUOTE=AlexNL;137476142]Maglevhas been proposed[/url] and thoroughly researched by the UK government (Tony Blair himself was excited about maglev), but it was ultimately shot down because Maglev would be much more expensive than HS2 and would not contribute to CO2 reductions at all.

Maglev requires more electricity (which would mostly be generated by coal power plants) and the stations couldn't be built in city centres, leading to people driving to the

It's Nuclear that the UK's building with Chinese help. We have lost our capability to build any thing High-tech and innovative. We cannot buil major projects alone anymore
The biggest challenge once HS2 gets the go ahead is going to be finding enough skilled workers to build it.
Maglev is perfect for Cross city lines Connecting Airports and Stations.
Maglev like other new technology will get cheaper. Why cant the UK become innovators again? It's as if ''If we cannot see it it done elsewhere'' We cannot do sod all''
It can serve the Major Stations of London( Many are located along the same road)start at Waterloo then on to St Pancs/ KX, and Euston, Paddington on to Heathrow with a M 25 Style circuit serving Stanstead, Gatwick.
With Stanstead/Gatwick having a fast connection to Heathrow, they can be considered for expansion instead of.
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Old December 31st, 2016, 10:59 PM   #2590
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[QUOTE=SalopianShrew;137478698]
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
Maglevhas been proposed[/url] and thoroughly researched by the UK government (Tony Blair himself was excited about maglev), but it was ultimately shot down because Maglev would be much more expensive than HS2 and would not contribute to CO2 reductions at all.

Maglev requires more electricity (which would mostly be generated by coal power plants) and the stations couldn't be built in city centres, leading to people driving to the

It's Nuclear that the UK's building with Chinese help. We have lost our capability to build any thing High-tech and innovative. We cannot build major projects alone anymore
The biggest challenge once HS2 gets the go ahead is going to be finding enough skilled workers to build it. While still trying to build other Rail Projects
The legal challenges are a blessing in disguise!! As this may allow the Electrification projects and Cross Rail to finish so Staff can be relocated on to HS2

Maglev is perfect for Cross City Connecting Airports and Stations.
Maglev like other new technology will get cheaper. Why cant the UK become innovators again? It's as if ''If we cannot see it it done elsewhere'' So We cannot do sod all''
It can serve the Major Stations of London( Many are located along the same road)start at Waterloo then on to St Pancs/ KX, and Euston, Paddington on to Heathrow with a M 25 Style circuit serving Stansted, Gatwick. While serving the Communities along the route.
With Stansted/Gatwick having a fast connection to Heathrow, they can be considered for expansion instead of.
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Old January 2nd, 2017, 07:51 PM   #2591
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Shame Eurostar didn't put up their units for sale. Sure they would need refurbishment but they are still certified to use the channel tunnel which seems to be a major obstacle for some operators. They probably don't want a competitor getting them and quickly starting a competing service.

They probably would have found life if they were owned by a train leasing company.
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Old January 3rd, 2017, 12:43 AM   #2592
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Class 700:

IMG_20170102_193646983_HDR
by Geogregor*, on Flickr


IMG_20170102_193723775_HDR
by Geogregor*, on Flickr

They are just being introduced to Thameslink fleet. There are 60 eight-car units and 55 twelve-car units on order.

Last edited by geogregor; January 3rd, 2017 at 09:24 AM.
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Old January 3rd, 2017, 10:28 AM   #2593
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
Err, you do realise that Eurostars were built to run on British railways, as they had to use the SEML and Chatham ML/Catford Loop to get from the end of the continental gauge railway into Waterloo International?

Thameslink might provide some gauge issues, but the other lines suggested by 00Zy99 almost certainly won't. The Eurostar depot used to be at the north end of the WLL, for instance.
The more you know! I will admit, that was such a long time ago I hadn't even considered it.
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Old January 4th, 2017, 06:25 PM   #2594
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Quote:
Explain the connection between a Japan-EU/UK production and assembly project and BREXIT.
If you cared to look at the image, it would be obvious that it is a pan-european trainset being assembled in the UK.
Do you think it will be more cost efficient to import all the EU/EEA components by..
A Loading them into containers and sending them to the Hitatchi plant.
or
B Loading them into containers, filling out the import paperwork and moving them through the customs zone on the way to the Hitatchi plant.
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Old January 4th, 2017, 08:35 PM   #2595
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Bermondsey Diveunder partially opened. Southern services down to Sussex travel under it.

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Old January 4th, 2017, 08:51 PM   #2596
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UNITED KINGDOM | Railways

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Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
You can't just "pull out a few trailers" as there are Channel Tunnel safety requirements that require all passenger trains to be at least 375 meters in length*. Platform lengths are a further limiting factor, typical British platforms aren't much longer than 240 metres.



* This has to do with emergencies: when a train comes to a halt inside the tunnel, the safety authority wants all passengers to be able to get to an emergency exit by walking down the train and not having to descend into the tunnel.

The North of London sets are only 312m long, and have operated services through the Tunnel.

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Old January 4th, 2017, 11:47 PM   #2597
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The plan was to use the NoL sets for cross-chunnel services to places further in the UK, but this has never come to fruition because of the safety regulations. Instead, some of these trains have been used by GNER and others by SNCF.
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Old January 5th, 2017, 09:52 AM   #2598
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Was it because of the safety regulations or just because its has been realized too late that there was no market ? In any case, those trains indeed never crossed the channel in revenue service...

Envoyé de mon GT-I9505 en utilisant Tapatalk
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Old January 5th, 2017, 11:20 AM   #2599
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The privatisation and breakup of British Rail also was a contributing factor. The UK Government didn't want to put the franchise operators at risk, so Regional Eurostar wouldn't be allowed to carry domestic passengers. This seriously hampered commercial viability, the channel tunnel safety regulations did the rest.
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Old January 7th, 2017, 04:02 PM   #2600
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There's plenty of wibble in this thread. Why do people on forums become obsessed with reusing old stock? In the case of the HSTs and some old diesel and electric locomotives, there is a good argument for doing so. This is not the case for the Class 373s, they are only really fit for scrapping which is a shame, but that's how it is.
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