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Old January 14th, 2009, 06:56 PM   #321
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Old January 15th, 2009, 12:05 PM   #322
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The Guardian is reporting that as part of the package for a controversial third runway at London Heathrow Airport they are also including a HSR hub at heathrow to facillitate access from the South West and North West of England and the continent as well as a brand new HS line going to the north of Birmingham.

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Could Britain be about to finally get its first domestic high speed intercity trains?
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Old January 15th, 2009, 03:47 PM   #323
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Could Britain be about to finally get its first domestic high speed intercity trains?
Yes, but not for another 20 years..! I really suggest you don't hold your breath, as such.

The Secretary of State for Transport today did announce in the Commons that electrification of the Great Western and Midland Mainlines is being looked at.

Again, though, I wouldn't hold your breath. It might well happen, for not for a long while... things do take time in this country!
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Old January 15th, 2009, 04:35 PM   #324
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Anyway, time for some photos I think!

Bury Bolton Street:



image hosted on flickr






Summerseat, near Bury:



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Old January 15th, 2009, 05:08 PM   #325
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I've lived in Lancashire nearly all my life and I have never visited that! Next time I get a day off, I'm there!
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Old January 15th, 2009, 06:10 PM   #326
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The East Lancashire Railway is great! Here's the website:

http://east-lancs-rly.co.uk/

Timetable/running days: http://east-lancs-rly.co.uk/?p=tt&m=38

Weekend operation only until May or so, when they also run Wed-Fri.
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Old January 15th, 2009, 10:02 PM   #327
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I don't understand this whole controversy and debate about Heathrow concerning the third runway and the need to expand intercity travel to London.

The most obvious and beneficial solution is not even being discussed:

1) Leave Heathrow as it is

2) Implement the Stansted expansion plan (second runway and new terminals)

3) Construct HSR connecting London with Bristol, Cardiff, Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, and Glasgow.
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Old January 15th, 2009, 10:08 PM   #328
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stansted is a no go atm, more powerful NIMBY lobby!
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Old January 16th, 2009, 12:59 AM   #329
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http://www.transportbriefing.co.uk/story.php?id=5453

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High Speed 2 rail starting gun fired by government
Filed 15/01/09

Planning by government for a north-south high speed rail line in Britain has begun with Transport Secretary Geoff Hoon creating a new company - High Speed 2 - to consider the case for services between London and Scotland.

Initial work will focus on a proposal for a new line between London and the West Midlands, which would enable faster train journeys to other destinations in the north of England and Scotland by running trains over a new high speed route and existing lines. High Speed 2 is due to report back to government with its findings by the end of the year.

The company, which will be chaired by the Department for Transport's Sir David Rowlands, will consider what route the new line should follow including options for a Heathrow International interchange station on the Great Western main line and an interchange with Crossrail services. It will also look at options for access to central London and the other cities served as well as options for linking with High Speed 1 train services and the existing rail network, including the potential for services to continental Europe.

Geoff Hoon said the government's experience with Crossrail and the Channel Tunnel Rail Link has demonstrated that advance detailed planning is required to progress such major infrastructure schemes and the purpose of the High Speed 2 company will be to advise Ministers on the feasibility and credibility of a new line with specific route options and financing proposals. The government hopes to have the line running by the 2020s ahead of the West Coast Main Line reaching capacity, which according to the Department for Transport is expected in 2025.

A High Speed 2 paper published by the DfT says that work by Network Rail has pointed to a strong case for an entirely new rail line in the corridor from London to the West Midlands. Such a line would enable faster and enhanced services to be run on new and existing lines to Manchester, Liverpool, Glasgow and other destinations in the north of England and Scotland, cutting journey times and increasing capacity substantially.

In the south of England any new line could connect to a new Heathrow International interchange station on the Great Western Main Line, providing a four-way interchange between the airport, the new north-south line, existing Great Western rail services and Crossrail into central London.

The HS2 paper refers to a range of high speed rail studies including those conducted by engineering consultant Atkins and not-for-profit high speed rail lobby group Greengauge 21. It also refers to analysis of new line options carried out for the DfT by Booz Allen Hamilton in 2007. This examined, on a comparative basis for conventional rail, high speed rail and maglev, issues such as sustainability, carbon impact, journey times and costings for an route linking London, Birmingham and the West Coast Main Line. The government says it intends to make this analysis available to High Speed Two and to publish it soon. However, Maglev technology is likely to be ruled out because it would not be compatible with existing European high speed rail lines.
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Old January 16th, 2009, 01:43 AM   #330
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Quote:
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Could Britain be about to finally get its first domestic high speed intercity trains?
Britain has already high speed intercity connections for almost 40 years.
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Old January 16th, 2009, 01:49 AM   #331
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Britain has already high speed intercity connections for almost 40 years.
There are domestic trains that travel an average of 125 mph?
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Old January 16th, 2009, 01:53 AM   #332
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more like a maximum speed of

we have the interCity 125 deisel trains, and interCity 225 electric trains. 125 stands for MPH, 225 stands for KPH
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Old January 16th, 2009, 01:56 AM   #333
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Quote:
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There are domestic trains that travel an average of 125 mph?
Inter City 125
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InterCity_125
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Old January 16th, 2009, 02:14 AM   #334
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Quote:
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Britain has already high speed intercity connections for almost 40 years.
Indeed, though the DfT have decided that 200km/h isn't High Speed, but rather "Express".

The 200km/h speed between York/Leeds/Manchester/Birmingham/Bristol and London made the case for HSR much less - we didn't have crappy classic lines that needed replacing. Glasgow has since got 200km/h running.

The main reason why the UK is finally planning 300km/h lines (HS1 being an exception - bypassed a lot of slow track in S London) is capacity. Our classic lines are good enough, however are rather full in places.
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Old January 16th, 2009, 04:40 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
Indeed, though the DfT have decided that 200km/h isn't High Speed, but rather "Express".

The 200km/h speed between York/Leeds/Manchester/Birmingham/Bristol and London made the case for HSR much less - we didn't have crappy classic lines that needed replacing. Glasgow has since got 200km/h running.

The main reason why the UK is finally planning 300km/h lines (HS1 being an exception - bypassed a lot of slow track in S London) is capacity. Our classic lines are good enough, however are rather full in places.
200km/h is not considered high speed. High speed railwaying starts with 250km/h.

The UK is blessed with main lines running very streight and also bypassing most complex urban areas. You can thank the great English railway pioneers for that.
When the UK built its railways it was thought that this new technology would not be good with curves. American engineers found out that railways can perfectly perform curves. That made building railways much cheaper, but where adopted this approach like an many countries in Europe, we still suffer from it....
Also, have you ever wondered travelling from London to Glasgow why you run some how in the middle between all those huge cities like Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool...? Thanks to bypassing them all trains don't need to slow down to pass this stations.

But I don't think your classic lines are good enough. London to Glasgow and Edinburgh takes much too long. The train is not competitive with flying. A proper high speed line would bring you there in under 3 hours. Hopefully the new high speed line will some day deliver that.
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Old January 16th, 2009, 05:37 AM   #336
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200km/h is considered high speed, just the very bottom end of it. 250km/h has come about recently in order to try and remove the UK mainlines from the lists (perhaps to shame us into building some faster lines).

London-Scotland won't be competetive with air - even HSL is over the 2 hour limit to take passengers off air. HSL from Manchester/Leeds would, of course, be competitive.

HSL won't justify itself on speed grounds - the UK has nothing except Newcastle in the range of places that aren't two hours from London now, but will be with HSL and journeys (except Scotland) aren't long enough to make much time savings from the high speed - the proposed Greengauge route gets most of it's time savings from taking a shorter route. It will justify it purely on congestion relief, at least initially, because that's what's needed.

British engineers did think trains could go round corners - you're being a muppet if you think otherwise - they built the railways as straight and as flat as possible because 1) they could and 2)it allowed trains to go faster.

As for why the WCML doesn't go via Birmingham - it did, but it's off the direct route to Lancashire, and they built the Trent Valley line to speed up journeys from further north. For Manchester - it's not on the direct route, and Wigan was much more competitive compared to Manchester than now. For Liverpool, a quick look at a map would show you why: similar reasons to Manchester being on a branch apply, plus the Mersey is rather wide there. A lot of this 'bypassing' is other railways becoming the mainline with a it of construction in order to quicken up journeys - the GW Aylesbury branch had part of it taken over to become a new London-Oxford/Birmingham line, and also a loop of the GCML. The branch went via Princes Risborough, High Wycombe, Bourne End and ended at Maidenhead. Much of it was single track (and was later doubled).
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Old January 16th, 2009, 05:52 AM   #337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoFMO View Post
200km/h is not considered high speed. High speed railwaying starts with 250km/h.

The UK is blessed with main lines running very streight and also bypassing most complex urban areas. You can thank the great English railway pioneers for that.
When the UK built its railways it was thought that this new technology would not be good with curves. American engineers found out that railways can perfectly perform curves. That made building railways much cheaper, but where adopted this approach like an many countries in Europe, we still suffer from it....
Also, have you ever wondered travelling from London to Glasgow why you run some how in the middle between all those huge cities like Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool...? Thanks to bypassing them all trains don't need to slow down to pass this stations.

But I don't think your classic lines are good enough. London to Glasgow and Edinburgh takes much too long. The train is not competitive with flying. A proper high speed line would bring you there in under 3 hours. Hopefully the new high speed line will some day deliver that.
bunch of erroneous statements and pure evil lies ...


1- British railways run at 125mph in great lenghts in all major corridors

2- british railways run in a "higher frequency" sheduling in all major intercity corridors (intercity as a service/concept is even a british invention)

3- british railways doesn't need a 200mph(320 km/h) "new" network ... just a couple of few "capacity increasing" sections here and there

4- acording to the EU (european union) the "High Speed rail" is either old lroutes at or above 125mph (200km/h) or NEW routes built from scratch at or above 156mph (250km/h) ... other regions of the world have such realistic classifications as 140km/h or even 100km/h

5- the UIC has no proper definition of themselves ... they just go along with the EU directives.

6- ...discussions on reinventing the weel (namely what is HSR) to be had in the inumerous topics discussing that recurring subject >>> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/forumd...hp?forumid=812
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Old January 16th, 2009, 05:54 AM   #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoFMO View Post
200km/h is not considered high speed. High speed railwaying starts with 250km/h.

The UK is blessed with main lines running very streight and also bypassing most complex urban areas. You can thank the great English railway pioneers for that.
When the UK built its railways it was thought that this new technology would not be good with curves. American engineers found out that railways can perfectly perform curves. That made building railways much cheaper, but where adopted this approach like an many countries in Europe, we still suffer from it....
Also, have you ever wondered travelling from London to Glasgow why you run some how in the middle between all those huge cities like Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool...? Thanks to bypassing them all trains don't need to slow down to pass this stations.

But I don't think your classic lines are good enough. London to Glasgow and Edinburgh takes much too long. The train is not competitive with flying. A proper high speed line would bring you there in under 3 hours. Hopefully the new high speed line will some day deliver that.
Just lucky us that neither the EU , DfT or even UIC have a care for your word/opinion on the subject of what is HSR.
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Old January 16th, 2009, 05:36 PM   #339
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Sotavento, a couple of points. First, you are a bit imprecise in saying that the EU considers 200 km/h on old routes as HS. The relevant directive is about qualifying for maximum support under the Trans-European Networks programme and hence relates to the act of building/upgrading lines. Here, 250 km/h is automatically considered as HS, whereas upgradings of existing lines to 200 km/h MAY be considered as such.

Secondly, you're of course right to say the main challenge for faster intercity connections in the UK are the bottlenecks around a handful of major cities/junctions - chiefly London and Birmingham. However, it is not clear how one can remedy this without digging a big purse out of one's pocket: I remember the old Eurostar rides, going out of Gare du Nord (old tracks) with eight parallel tracks for the first 10-15 km, arriving at Waterloo station one one of the two (?) measly tracks running through Brixton. This has convinced me that you don't just snap your fingers and make the congestion of the commuter tracks disappear. MASSIVE investment is called for. Add to this the fact that in 1-2 decades there is also, on current trends, going to be saturation of several main lines. This adds up, IMHO, to one unavoidable conclusion: we need a new line between London and Manchester/Liverpool. Which being so, it might as well be tip-top modern, which means... European highspeed standard.
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Old January 16th, 2009, 07:32 PM   #340
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The Victoria-Chatham 'main line' has 4 tracks, just that at just north of Brixton, they diverge and take different routes to Shortlands.

It's worth pointing out that the line isn't a long distance one - OK, you'll have trains to Ramsgate and Ashford on it, but most are suburban. Eurostar used it as they couldn't go to London Bridge (the first zone 1 station on the mainline from Dover) due to congestion and no site for a terminus. Waterloo had space, and the Chatham lines had capacity in London. The whole thing was a complete bodge.

I'm struggling to think of a major main line out of London with less than 4 tracks to the edge of London. I guess there's the Chiltern, though that doesn't have much suburban traffic inside London, but is mostly suburban traffic outside London. Often it's the case that instead of 4 tracking (or 6 tracking) an alternate route is built, serving other places - Dartford has 3 main routes for instance.

It seems that you saw the worst of UK rail and extrapolated to all the far more major routes.

We need a new line between London and Birmingham as a pressing concern (others could do with more capacity from new tracks, but aren't really necessary), or a 4-tracked Chiltern ML and a Birmingham avoiding route from that line to serve the North West. We might as well build an HSL, because it's not much more expensive and makes us not look backwards.

We don't need a new line as far as Manchester/Liverpool - one would be good, but it's not needed - sort out a Stafford bypass (a couple of miles of track near Stone) and you solve the biggest problem north of Birmingham.
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