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Old January 22nd, 2009, 01:36 PM   #361
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Yes .. .and each and every other main line radiationg out of london has 4 tracks ... so ...


The key point is that HS1 is actually:

- a cross-london tunnel of some 20km with two tracks and no intermediate stops ...
-add another 12km od pure track doubling in an existing alignement ...
- a 3km long tunnel under the thames
- a connection to existing south-thames railways
- 50km along an existing motorway corridor to ashford
- 20km of more track doubling to the euro-tunnel entrance



Actually the HS1 never goes that far apart from one or two neighbouring railways ... in some cases it even runs alongside another one.

Back to the discussion ... a 2 track HSR could only cope with 2x 20 trains per hour (something of the sort at best) if and only each and everyone travells at the same speeds ... start to add slow and/or stopping trains on the same tracks and the capacity goes down the drain .

But nonetheless yhst is a lot of trains per hour ... and since the UK is lacking in terms of highly dense single/packed corridor traffic (too many routes to get to everywere) it will never be a real problem.


And where do you get those 10 minutes from ??? acording tho th enumbers I have the Eurostar get the same treatment as any other TGV trainset ... 3 minutes well in the reach of TVM430.
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Old January 22nd, 2009, 01:39 PM   #362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manchester Planner View Post
*yawn*


"British Railways - Pics, Info, News, Views"


Since there are no NEWS , INFO or Pics here is my view:


The biggest flaws in the british system (from the point of view of a continental) are:

- too long stretches without passing places ... a couple of stations with actual tracks/platforms NOT in the direct tracks now and then would be welcome
- too many flat junctions ... never heard of flyovers in the land of railways in enbankments ???
- too little capacity increasing measures taken ... talking about lack of capacity where theres plenty of "Beeching" laying around in that same places sounds odd.
- a general feeling of "old" in a lot of places ... namely in some major interchange stations
- a total lack of ATP ... wich is 1/2 of speed increases above the "usual" 125mph



Cheers and happy flamming trying to prove it's all wrong.
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Last edited by sotavento; January 22nd, 2009 at 01:45 PM.
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Old January 22nd, 2009, 02:19 PM   #363
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I'm not the one flaming on this thread.

Really.. all this hot air re: what is and what is not HSR, etc. It's boring.
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Old January 22nd, 2009, 03:07 PM   #364
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It gives me a headache just to see all those drniking smilies all over the page: 'unnecessary' ... puncuation, everywhere - etc.

Sotavento - do you not understand you have a bizarre and agressive writing style that antagonises others yet you are so arrogant to think its others who are 'flaming'.

Please just leave this thread alone. Please!
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Old January 22nd, 2009, 10:09 PM   #365
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Republica View Post
It gives me a headache just to see all those drniking smilies all over the page: 'unnecessary' ... puncuation, everywhere - etc.

Sotavento - do you not understand you have a bizarre and agressive writing style that antagonises others yet you are so arrogant to think its others who are 'flaming'.

Please just leave this thread alone. Please!
Well you have got to appreciate his attempts to break away from the plain transactional English everyone uses. Maybe a few more classes, and he'll get how to use irony, sarcasm and literary nuance appropriately.
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Old January 22nd, 2009, 10:18 PM   #366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
New lines in portugal are prepared for "as much as the train can go" ... or as we say in technical terms ... it's a straight line from here to the border ... so let the spanish deal with stopping the trains on their side.

Routes in completely flat and plain terrein being planed for some "unimpressive" 350km/h ... we are so un-ambitious here ... specially if they put some AGV (360km/h) on them .
Funded for by the British Taxpayer of course

Go Portugal!! Speed yourself in to a real first world country on the back of wealthier nations!
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Old January 23rd, 2009, 12:53 AM   #367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
And where do you get those 10 minutes from ??? acording tho th enumbers I have the Eurostar get the same treatment as any other TGV trainset ... 3 minutes well in the reach of TVM430.
3 mins minimum headway is an actual figure of the DS-ATC system (Japanese Technology) for Taiwan High Speed Rail. The Tokaido Shinkansen has slightly longer headway of 5 mins, or 12 trains per hour (8 fast Nozomi + 2 semi-fast Hikari + 2 all stops Kodama). 10 mins for HS1 is something I got either off this forum or somewhere else which I don't remember, and the headway should already have taken the much slower Javelins (225km/h vs 300km/h of Eurostar, although with much higher acceleration than the latter) into consideration.
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Old January 23rd, 2009, 02:55 AM   #368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
And where do you get those 10 minutes from ??? acording tho th enumbers I have the Eurostar get the same treatment as any other TGV trainset ... 3 minutes well in the reach of TVM430.
It's not the signaling system that cannot meet 3 minute intervals, it's the trainsets themselves that can't meet the criteria.

I read that the Shinkansen needs 5 minute intervals for the trains to decelerate, stop one minute at station and, accelerate to commercial top speed again.
The Shinkansen can manage to obtain commercial top speed with 5Km lead way. On the otherhand it takes 20Km for the TGV to decelerate/accelerate to/from commercial top speed to/from zero meaning they will need more interval time in between train sets or the trailing train not making the stop at a station may collide with the leading train that just pulled out.
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Old January 23rd, 2009, 06:32 PM   #369
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Source ???



The Eurostar has rheostatic braking , 4 disc brakes per axle on ALL non powered axles and all powered axles have wheel brakes.

It can slow down and stop from a speed of 300km/h to 0km/h in about 3,5km ... some 60 seconds from 300 to 0.

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Old January 23rd, 2009, 06:41 PM   #370
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shw me ur sauces plz

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Old January 24th, 2009, 07:25 AM   #371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
Source ???
The Eurostar has rheostatic braking , 4 disc brakes per axle on ALL non powered axles and all powered axles have wheel brakes.

It can slow down and stop from a speed of 300km/h to 0km/h in about 3,5km ... some 60 seconds from 300 to 0.

Are you talking about emergency deceleration? How about the normal,/service deceleration?
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Old January 24th, 2009, 08:56 AM   #372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
Source ???



The Eurostar has rheostatic braking , 4 disc brakes per axle on ALL non powered axles and all powered axles have wheel brakes.

It can slow down and stop from a speed of 300km/h to 0km/h in about 3,5km ... some 60 seconds from 300 to 0.

From this book, 鉄道工学ハンドブック

It states that the 12M type(500series)'s acceleration capability is 3.2Km/h/sec, while the L12TL type(don't know which series)'s acceleration capability 1.4Km/h/sec.
To obtain to speed, acceleration is powered by square so 12M will reach top speed 5.2 times faster then the L12TL.
It also write about deceleration where an MMU has much better deceleration capabilities becuase of magnetic deceleration with better weight distribution allowing inertia to dissipate more quickly than a push/pull locomotive type.
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Old January 25th, 2009, 03:49 AM   #373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taikoo.city View Post
Are you talking about emergency deceleration? How about the normal,/service deceleration?
No ... just stating the standard(*) capabilities of a conventional TGV Eurostar trainset ...

And I only stated that because 5 minutes for a train to drop from 300km/h to a standstill let passengers /board/exit and regain its due course WITHOUT considering that other trains ould overrun it on a paralell track seems rather excessive.

The following train just needs to be behing long enough as to allow it to make the deviation (by wich time it's going at about 160km/h) as to alow him to enter a stopping track ...


... this because "stoping" TGV's usually only stop on side tracks... and the next train just needs to come behind him some 5 sectors behind ... being 1500m the usual lenght of section it is then capable of about (a little over) a train per minute and a half (5 sectors = 7500m ... at 300km/h a train travels 5000m per minute)... usually they run the LGV's at a much saffer 2 or 3 minute gap between trains so ...

*) standard as in what the manuals indicate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
From this book, 鉄道工学ハンドブック

It states that the 12M type(500series)'s acceleration capability is 3.2Km/h/sec, while the L12TL type(don't know which series)'s acceleration capability 1.4Km/h/sec.
To obtain to speed, acceleration is powered by square so 12M will reach top speed 5.2 times faster then the L12TL.
It also write about deceleration where an MMU has much better deceleration capabilities becuase of magnetic deceleration with better weight distribution allowing inertia to dissipate more quickly than a push/pull locomotive type.
Standard convention states that a TGV trainset can meet the targeted speeds of (using TVM430) both in normal acceleration and deceleration:

300, 270, 230, 170, 80 and 0

It takes one 1500m block/Sector to get from one targeted speed to the one above/under .... and they seem to manage the increased headways (2 or 3 minutes) and having the routes at capacity in a daily basis.
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Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old January 25th, 2009, 03:51 AM   #374
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You never learn do you ??? Here's your usual response:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Republica View Post
shw me ur sauces plz

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Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old January 25th, 2009, 12:23 PM   #375
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Man, I love HP Sauce on bacon & eggs. It's the shit.

I just wish I could buy Sandwich Spread here in Aust.

Don't mind me.... continue.
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Old January 26th, 2009, 12:07 AM   #376
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shw me ur sauces plz


Off-tOPIC: Pluuhhh, that is really disgusting. I feel ashamed that we Dutch have to make that sauce for you...

On topic: Does anyone know when they start to renovate London Euston. From all Terminals in London it is deffenitly not the most beautifull.
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Old January 26th, 2009, 01:45 AM   #377
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Off-tOPIC: Pluuhhh, that is really disgusting. I feel ashamed that we Dutch have to make that sauce for you...
How can you say that! HP is excellent! At least we dont just plonk mayonaise on everything
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Old January 26th, 2009, 03:39 AM   #378
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Man, I love mayonnaise too.

Regarding Euston station, I know there were some plans to renovate it (including the possibility of rebuilding the famous Euston Arch) but I think they're still just plans. I don't think a timeline has been put into place.

When does the refurb of King's Cross Station happen anyway?
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Old January 26th, 2009, 08:59 AM   #379
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
No ... just stating the standard(*) capabilities of a conventional TGV Eurostar trainset ...

And I only stated that because 5 minutes for a train to drop from 300km/h to a standstill let passengers /board/exit and regain its due course WITHOUT considering that other trains ould overrun it on a paralell track seems rather excessive.

The following train just needs to be behing long enough as to allow it to make the deviation (by wich time it's going at about 160km/h) as to alow him to enter a stopping track ...


... this because "stoping" TGV's usually only stop on side tracks... and the next train just needs to come behind him some 5 sectors behind ... being 1500m the usual lenght of section it is then capable of about (a little over) a train per minute and a half (5 sectors = 7500m ... at 300km/h a train travels 5000m per minute)... usually they run the LGV's at a much saffer 2 or 3 minute gap between trains so ...

*) standard as in what the manuals indicate.



Standard convention states that a TGV trainset can meet the targeted speeds of (using TVM430) both in normal acceleration and deceleration:

300, 270, 230, 170, 80 and 0

It takes one 1500m block/Sector to get from one targeted speed to the one above/under .... and they seem to manage the increased headways (2 or 3 minutes) and having the routes at capacity in a daily basis.
I didn't say Shinkansen is more superior but we have to realise that EMU is the way to go even for SNCF, hence the development of AGV.

TVM430 is completely manual IIRC, while DS-ATC controls the deceleration of the train when necessary. However it's too early to say which system is better since there has yet an EMU TGV trainset running on LGV tracks, at least officially (I know nothing about ICE but Class 395 seems to be the first EMU vehicle on LGV tracks with Shinkansen technology), and there will never be locomotives on the Japanese Shinkansen tracks.
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Old January 28th, 2009, 05:45 AM   #380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taikoo.city View Post
I didn't say Shinkansen is more superior but we have to realise that EMU is the way to go even for SNCF, hence the development of AGV.

TVM430 is completely manual IIRC, while DS-ATC controls the deceleration of the train when necessary. However it's too early to say which system is better since there has yet an EMU TGV trainset running on LGV tracks, at least officially (I know nothing about ICE but Class 395 seems to be the first EMU vehicle on LGV tracks with Shinkansen technology), and there will never be locomotives on the Japanese Shinkansen tracks.
Are you talking about "distributed power" ???


What is the difference between standard Shinkansen/ICE3 power distribution between bogies and the power distribution of a TGV trainset ???

A 400m long TGV trainset would have 8 to 12 motored axles along it's lenght.

TGV SudEst has 6 out of 13 axles motored ... intermediate non powered jacobs bogies are much more effective than intermediate underframe hung motored axles.

Just to get a picture of what we are talking about ... SNCF has some 480 TGV trainsets of various forms , sizes and technical specifications (some 50 more on order currently) ... these go from Thalys ,Eurostar and other special "foreign" signal/current specifications to the regular reseau/atlantique/duplex ... can you imagine regular regional services in the UK being run with 300km/h trainsets in the near future ???

If you don't count the Eurostar (too long) all other TGV's have roughly as many axles motored as any other High Speed trainset ... with an advantage ... they have biger and more powerfull motors installed (one of the disadvantages of the AGV will preciselly be the limited power of their motors)

For example the O series Shinkansens form the 60's had only 185Kw per traction motor ... the 100 and 200 series not much more ... the 300 seriews have 300kw traction motors ... in their final years the O (run as 6 car trainsets) were seriously underpowered.

And one actually neglects that:
the "old" 0,100,200 were 210/220km/h trainsets , some 200+66 trainsets (or even more)?? in the 60's , all widrawn
the 100 trainsets were only 220km/h capable , some 66 sets in late 80's ,widrawal and/or shortening to 4/6 cars lenght
the 200 trainsets were only 210/240km/h , some 66 sets built in early 80's , much of them widrawn
the 300 are 270km/h (same as old TGV sud est) , some 66 sets by late 90's , being widrawn
the 400 series are 240km/h , only 12 sets in the 90's
the 500 sets are huge power hogs (all axles on the 16 cars are motored with 285kw traction motors and due to the huge cost) , only 9 were ever built
the 700 series is a subsequent "low cost" variation (wich is only capable os 285km/h) , 91 sets
the 800 series only runs at 260km/h , 36 sets
the N700 is 300km/h capable , can tilt by as much as 1º and has 305kw traction motors ... 56 tiny traction motors in a 16 car long consist for only limited 300km/h performance???? 95 sets in construction
the E1 are double decker 240km/h trainsets , 6 built in the 90's
the E2 are 275km/h doubledecker trains , 47 sets built in late 90's to middle of 2005
the E3 are 275km/h sinde deck , 30 sets built in the late 90's
the E4 double deckers are 240km/h , 26 trainsets built in late 90's



How are we to compare that with the 225 TGV trainsets capable of 320km/h speeds , from wich 157 of them are duplex trainsets ???
Out of the remaining trains only a selected few are "old" un-upgraded 270km/h TGVSudest ... the remaining are all 300km/h capable.

what diferentiates the AGV(or distributed power) from the TGV(or locomotive hauled) is moslty the principles wich led to the introduction of that particular trainsets into service.

TGV = came from Gas-turbine prototipes ... the ruling at that time prevented a "fast" train to have passengers in the 1st carriage ... nonetheless to call it a locomotive hauled train is a grave error ... its a lightweight, shared bogie , high powered super-fast emu.
ICE1/2 /ETR500 = based on the concept of top-and-tail/push-pull DB 103 /Italian Alxxx locomotives (DB powerheads based on DB120 power) that push "conventional" roling stock in between ... inovation = 0
ICE3 = conventional EMU based on regular coaching stock ... not much inovation there ... just a XIX century EMU with the raw poer to go as much as 330/350 km/h
Shinkansen = to the japanese its "inovative" enough .. to european standards is just regular EMU from XIX (same as IC3)
Talgo 350/130 = same as TGV trains ... regular locomotive motor heads and lightweight trainsets
FIAT Pendulino = distributed power on a lightweight aluminim tilting EMU
BR IC225 / SJ X200 and others = tilting(or capable) and regular Push-Pull/Tn'T loco + coach rolling stock

Main advantages of TGV/Talgo stiled trains = more raw power concentrated on the locomotives ... lightweight consists
Main advantages of ICE /Acela/X200/ETR500/IC225 stilled trains = If you know of any please tell us
Main advantages of EMU stiled trains = dispensing with the powerheads we gain more living space for packing passengers


The AGV is not a "conventional" EMU high speed train ... is a TGV consist turned EMU ... something like the "failed"/"abandoned" Talgo XXI ... they are in a category of their own.

... it's viability is yet to be proved.


On a sidenotice .. .the Javelin difers NOTHING from the standard 25kv50HzAC EMU's that run in the UK in tlhe last half a century(?) ... just a comuter stiled EMU capable of 225km/h on a 300km/h track ... if the discussion is about lack of capacity induced by missmanagement and lack of vision it's a clear example ... how many minutes each day will be axed in HS1 due to the "slow" trains mixed with eurostar ?????
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