daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old January 31st, 2009, 03:30 AM   #401
Tri-ring
Expert
 
Tri-ring's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 459
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post



You are completely WRONG ...


If for you a 200m long TGV trainset with 8 motored axles and 18 non-powered axles is a "push-pull/locomotive" and a ICE3 with the same 200m ,100tonnes more and 16 +16 powered/unpowered axles is an EM ... who AM I to say no to blind people ???


Your comparison between 2 vs 4 wheel drives is absurd.


Comparing a 200hp articulated truck (this would be the TGV) with let's say a pair of articulated 4-wheel drive 100hp Jeeps connected toguether ...


... Do you seriously believe that the tiny motors on the later would be more capable of acelerating the veicle than the BIG motors on the 1st ???

Railway Reality proves otherwise ... a similarly rated (in terms of top speed) SMALL motor will be much more difficult to get to higher speeds than a bigger motor ...and remember ... you are not comparing any similarly powered veichles locomotive hauled with any 100% powered EMU's

You are comparing a 8800KW EMU (namely the TGV 1100KW per motored axle) with similarly powered EMU's of 8000KW (ICE3 500KW per motored axle) and a 8540KW EMU (N70 305KW per motored axle) ....


... and ain't railways all about minimizing atrition ??? To compare any train with simple 2 vs. 1 wheel drives would be a grave error ...


And remember ... NEVER ever compare the Eurostar performance with that of a standard TGV set ....

Give it a break.
The locomotive has two boogies with two axles per boogie amounting to four powered axles per loco.Since TGV is a push-pull it's eight in all.
Calling TGV an EMU is completely absurd.

My anology of 2 wheel drive vs 4 wheel drive is about powered axle vs non-powered(trailing) axles.
Bigger motors do generate more torque but it is worthless if it is not transmitted to the tracks properly. Steel against steel does not have much traction so if you apply too much torque too quickly it starts a wheel spin. The only way to stop a wheel spin is reduce power so the wheels regain traction thus the train starts moving ahead.
Large axle load means stress to the motors making the power band narrower so again throttling becomes critical that is why push/pull needs a long lead way to obtain top speed, meaning slower acceleration/deceleration rate.
With EMUs power is more evenly dispersed making the axle load lower reducing stress creating a wider power band.

It's all high school physics, I suggest you read it more.

=Edit=
I also did a simple power/weight ratio per powered axle calculation based on the information you provided.
Quote:
ICE3 = 200m long , 330km/h ,16 out of 32 axles motored (1 out of 2 coaches motored , go see the specs for yourselves) , 8000KW/32 = 250KW per axle (traction suported on 16 axles)

TGV POS = 200m long , 320km/h , 8 out of 26 axles motored , 9600KW , 369KW per axle

a 400m long TGV would weight as much as 766 tonnes (16/52 axles motored) .... a similarly long ICE3 would weight 820/860 tonnes (32/64 axles motored)
=Re-edited to reflex above info.=

Weight Power per axle Number of powered axle Load per powered axle Power/weight ratio
ICE3 410 500 16 25.625 0.051
TGV POS 383 1100 8 47.875 0.044
N700 357.5 305 32 11.171875 0.037

With 47tonnes per powered axle, the power band will be very narrow compared to the other two.
__________________
banned for denial of war crimes in world war 2.

Last edited by Tri-ring; January 31st, 2009 at 04:00 PM. Reason: Adding power/weight ratio calculation
Tri-ring no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old January 31st, 2009, 11:44 AM   #402
serdar samanlı
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Vienna
Posts: 792
Likes (Received): 21

Are all British passenger trains MUs or are there any loco-hauled trains?
serdar samanlı no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 31st, 2009, 08:07 PM   #403
uk-highspeed
High Speed Rail Fan
 
uk-highspeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Cambridge, UK
Posts: 92
Likes (Received): 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by serdar samanlı View Post
Are all British passenger trains MUs or are there any loco-hauled trains?
Not all. The Class 91 is probably the 'best' loco around for passenger services.

Class 91 Wikipedia Page

Last edited by uk-highspeed; January 31st, 2009 at 08:24 PM.
uk-highspeed no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 3rd, 2009, 12:05 PM   #404
serdar samanlı
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Vienna
Posts: 792
Likes (Received): 21

Does good-old British Rail still exist or is it has ben totally liquidated? Didi railroaders' unions and leftist intellectuals show any resistance againts this?
serdar samanlı no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 3rd, 2009, 05:38 PM   #405
andysimo123
wind-up merchant
 
andysimo123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 15,960
Likes (Received): 82

Quote:
Originally Posted by serdar samanlı View Post
Does good-old British Rail still exist or is it has ben totally liquidated? Didi railroaders' unions and leftist intellectuals show any resistance againts this?
Nope British Rail was Privatised in the 1990s. Railtrack replaced that but now we have a company called Network rail which owns most of the infrastructure railway tracks, signals, tunnels, bridges, level crossings and stations.

Other companies own the rolling stock and run most of the stations.
andysimo123 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 3rd, 2009, 11:23 PM   #406
Manchester Planner
Chief Bureaucrat
 
Manchester Planner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,831
Likes (Received): 4

Well, British Rail DOES still exist, but only to look after some assets which are not used by the operating railway network (former rail yards, disused tunnels, viaducts and other structures) as well as matters relating to pensions, heritage and so. They have over the years sold much of their land for other development, though will likely retain legacies such as tunnels.

http://www.brb.gov.uk

However as andysimo123 says, the network is now in the hands of Network Rail, which is to all intents and purposes a public body. (The short lived Railtrack, which was a complete failure, was a private, profit-making body with shareholders etc.)
Manchester Planner no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 4th, 2009, 12:54 AM   #407
serdar samanlı
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Vienna
Posts: 792
Likes (Received): 21

Does anybody know why MUs are so common in Britain? The majority of trains in continental Europe are loco-hauled.

Last edited by serdar samanlı; February 4th, 2009 at 12:53 PM.
serdar samanlı no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 4th, 2009, 04:52 PM   #408
Republica
BUND
 
Republica's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 4,036
Likes (Received): 3

I'm not sure, maybe its due to the short nature of a lot of rail journies in the UK and the fact that MU's are faster at accelerating. Maybe something to do with loading guage? Are they cheaper?
__________________
Rant
Republica no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 5th, 2009, 02:34 AM   #409
Songoten2554
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Miami Florida
Posts: 1,063
Likes (Received): 87

i think it has to do with a little of everything.

i don't know if anybody wants to correct me on this but what i have seen and learned about the british rail system which is interesting as well, is that yeah most of the journeys people make are short journeys of course there are long journeys but the majority is short trips.

also the fact that MU's are faster then loco hauled trains and also are able to be ready faster then loco hauled.

but also about the loading guage hmm can someone help us out here with this?

also great pictures of the Airport Rail links in the UK photos they are really great and high quality.

also a question about the gatwick express does the trains looks like that color or are they green now because of southern?
Songoten2554 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 5th, 2009, 03:00 AM   #410
Manchester Planner
Chief Bureaucrat
 
Manchester Planner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,831
Likes (Received): 4

The main reason why multiple units are used over loco-hauled trains is for ease of use - no running round of the engine at the end of the journey/when running into and out of a station. This also means a simplified track layout at most stations and better use of track in busy stations for stabling trains, rather than having track free for use for running locos round carriages.

In fact, after decades of track simplification in the country, where most stations no longer have run-round facilities, or are too busy for locos to run-round, the few remaining loco hauled services often have a loco on either end of the train (or a loco on one end and a driving van trailer (DVT) on the other end). The rear loco is "dead" and the driver simply gets out and starts up the other loco when the train departs in the other direction.

Here's an example: two class 57 locos (one on either end of the train) at Shrewsbury, on Arriva's Cardiff-Holyhead evening express.

http://daviddawson.fotopic.net/p55300046.html
Manchester Planner no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 5th, 2009, 02:46 PM   #411
flierfy
Registered User
 
flierfy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,886
Likes (Received): 296

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manchester Planner View Post
The main reason why multiple units are used over loco-hauled trains is for ease of use - no running round of the engine at the end of the journey/when running into and out of a station. This also means a simplified track layout at most stations and better use of track in busy stations for stabling trains, rather than having track free for use for running locos round carriages.
You have never heard of push-pull trains, have you. There's no need to run locomotives around trains anymore.
__________________
Rippachtal.de
flierfy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 5th, 2009, 05:02 PM   #412
Republica
BUND
 
Republica's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 4,036
Likes (Received): 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manchester Planner View Post
(or a loco on one end and a driving van trailer (DVT) on the other end)

Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
You have never heard of push-pull trains, have you. There's no need to run locomotives around trains anymore.
DVT IS push pull flierfly...
__________________
Rant
Republica no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 6th, 2009, 12:17 PM   #413
serdar samanlı
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Vienna
Posts: 792
Likes (Received): 21

Quote:
Originally Posted by Songoten2554 View Post
i think it has to do with a little of everything.

i don't know if anybody wants to correct me on this but what i have seen and learned about the british rail system which is interesting as well, is that yeah most of the journeys people make are short journeys of course there are long journeys but the majority is short trips.

also the fact that MU's are faster then loco hauled trains and also are able to be ready faster then loco hauled.

but also about the loading guage hmm can someone help us out here with this?

also great pictures of the Airport Rail links in the UK photos they are really great and high quality.

also a question about the gatwick express does the trains looks like that color or are they green now because of southern?
Maybe the trains serving Scotland from London are loco-hauled
serdar samanlı no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 6th, 2009, 02:24 PM   #414
Republica
BUND
 
Republica's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 4,036
Likes (Received): 3

Yes, they are on the East coast main line. (and probably the some on the west?)
__________________
Rant
Republica no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 6th, 2009, 05:25 PM   #415
andysimo123
wind-up merchant
 
andysimo123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 15,960
Likes (Received): 82

Quote:
Originally Posted by serdar samanlı View Post
Maybe the trains serving Scotland from London are loco-hauled
On the East Coast Main Line they use Electric and Diesel Locos. Class 43s(Intercity 125s) and Class 91s(Intercity 225s).
On the West Cost Main Line they use EMUs which are Class 390s aka Virgin Pendolinos. Am not sure if there are any direct London Scotland services served by anything else but its likely.
andysimo123 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 6th, 2009, 09:02 PM   #416
Manchester Planner
Chief Bureaucrat
 
Manchester Planner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,831
Likes (Received): 4

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/...st/7874216.stm

The West Highland line has been voted the top rail journey in the world by readers of independent travel magazine, Wanderlust.

It came ahead of two trips in Peru and the Trans Siberian Express.

The line from Glasgow to Mallaig is a 164 miles long and runs by Loch Long, Loch Lomond, Loch Etive and Loch Eil.

It crosses the world's first concrete rail viaduct at Glenfinnan, which was featured in the Harry Potter films, and passes the silver sands of Morar.

Passengers can also see Britain's most westerly station at Arisaig.

The line has also featured in programmes such as the BBC's Great Railway Journeys of the world.

The West Highland line beat off competition from 400 other nominated rail journeys from around the world.

The awards attracted almost 3,000 readers' votes.

Wanderlust editor-in-chief Lyn Hughes said: "We have had a terrific response and it is obvious that the appetite for rail travel is ever increasing.

"Having a Scottish winner for this award is particularly exciting, and shows you don't have to travel far for truly world-beating scenery."

Steve Montgomery, acting managing director of ScotRail, said: "We are delighted that Wanderlust readers, who are so passionate about travel, have chosen the West Highland Line.

"It is a testament to our staff, our services - and the line, now the world's top rail journey.

"We look forward to welcoming more visitors to savour the line's delights."
Manchester Planner no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 7th, 2009, 03:32 AM   #417
sotavento
Registered user
 
sotavento's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7,419
Likes (Received): 322

^I recomend the WHL ... one of the true wonders of the world ... Myself already made the trip 3 times (2 by train and 1 on "foot" taking pictures of the railway and the surrounding area).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Republica View Post
I'm not sure, maybe its due to the short nature of a lot of rail journies in the UK and the fact that MU's are faster at accelerating. Maybe something to do with loading guage? Are they cheaper?

Not that simple ...


EMU/DMU were introduced to allow lighter services (lighter as in a loco plus one or two cars behind it) to be as less moneylosers as possible.


A similarly powered EMU/DMU and loco-hauled are indeed very differen from eachothers ... for example:

HST = 2 brake.motor-van/locomotives + 8/9 cars = 2 engines at the ends ... some 3000KW power ... they even put the "quiet coaches" near the engines.

a similar DMU would be a pair of Voyagers with their 8/9 under-floor noisy motors in each car ... 2 crews ... some 1900KW + 2400KW = 4300KW rampaging under the pssenger compartment the entire trip ... and so and so and so



NatExp (ex.GNER) EMU is a simple Class91+9 MkIV+DVT with some 4500KW

virgin Pendolino 390 with 9 cars and 5100KW (terrible acceleration performance)

The "new" javelins based on 130km/h narrow gauge technology.


Isolated power (namely locomotive , push-pull , dual headed trains) is much more "cheaper" if we are talking about huge batches of rolingstock ... maintaining loco-hauled cars is much cheapers

Distributed power is more costly but nonetheless has it's own advantages in other areas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andysimo123 View Post
On the East Coast Main Line they use Electric and Diesel Locos. Class 43s(Intercity 125s) and Class 91s(Intercity 225s).
On the West Cost Main Line they use EMUs which are Class 390s aka Virgin Pendolinos. Am not sure if there are any direct London Scotland services served by anything else but its likely.
Other than that only the night trains ???
__________________
"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça
sotavento no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 7th, 2009, 04:42 AM   #418
sotavento
Registered user
 
sotavento's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7,419
Likes (Received): 322

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
Give it a break.
The locomotive has two boogies with two axles per boogie amounting to four powered axles per loco.Since TGV is a push-pull it's eight in all.
Calling TGV an EMU is completely absurd.

My anology of 2 wheel drive vs 4 wheel drive is about powered axle vs non-powered(trailing) axles.
Bigger motors do generate more torque but it is worthless if it is not transmitted to the tracks properly. Steel against steel does not have much traction so if you apply too much torque too quickly it starts a wheel spin. The only way to stop a wheel spin is reduce power so the wheels regain traction thus the train starts moving ahead.
Large axle load means stress to the motors making the power band narrower so again throttling becomes critical that is why push/pull needs a long lead way to obtain top speed, meaning slower acceleration/deceleration rate.
With EMUs power is more evenly dispersed making the axle load lower reducing stress creating a wider power band.

It's all high school physics, I suggest you read it more.

=Edit=
I also did a simple power/weight ratio per powered axle calculation based on the information you provided.


=Re-edited to reflex above info.=

Weight Power per axle Number of powered axle Load per powered axle Power/weight ratio
ICE3 410 500 16 25.625 0.051
TGV POS 383 1100 8 47.875 0.044
N700 357.5 305 32 11.171875 0.037

With 47tonnes per powered axle, the power band will be very narrow compared to the other two.
fixed formation trains ARE always EMU/DMU by "definition" ...

Have you ever seen the 3 car TGV runing around uncoupled from each other ???





If your rgumentation is based SOLELY on the premises that (when built) the TGV had the powercars more based on the premises that the 1st car of a HST shouldn't transport passengers and thus its a push pull ...

what to say about the little (meaningless to you for sure) detail that there are only 3 distinct (meaning separable outside the shops) vehicles in a TGV consist ... namely the 2 powercars and the intermediate lightweight "consist" ????

Shinkansen and ICE ??? yeah ... EMU all the way ... ... just remove the drawbar and you get a lot of self propelled vehicles.


Talgo 130 , Talgo 102 and TGV trainsets are much more "emu" than what you see at first sight.

And you are wrong about the power/axles:

ICE3 = 8 cars , 4 powered cars , 4 unpowered cars , 8 powered bogies , 8 unpowered bogies , 16 powered axles , 16 unpowered axles

N700 = 32 axles of wich 28 are powered

TGV Sud Est = 2 power cars (4 + 4 powered axles) + 8 permanently-coupled cars (2 powered bogies , 4 powered axles , 7 unpowered bogies) = 12 powered , 14 unpowered axles

TGV Reseau = 2 power cars (4 + 4 powered axles) + 8 permanently-coupled cars (9 unpowered bogies) = 8 powered , 18 unpowered axles

(notice that a similar 200m long ICE3 and N700 would have 6 more axles than the standard-lenght TGV)


Free Flamming ... If you are assuming that unpowered axles are dead weight ... then the ICE3 carries a lot more "dead weight" than the TGV.


About the N700 ... We can't discuss about wheel-rail grip and high speed acceleration without proper numbers ...

8500/8800KW on 56 tiny 305KW in each axle or on 8 big 1100KW body-mounted traction motors ???? wich is more effective for accelerating to high speeds ?????




EMU's are just an evolutionary step over the stone age steam traction.
__________________
"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça
sotavento no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 7th, 2009, 08:09 PM   #419
andysimo123
wind-up merchant
 
andysimo123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 15,960
Likes (Received): 82

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
Other than that only the night trains ???
I don't understand the question?
andysimo123 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 8th, 2009, 11:53 AM   #420
taikoo.city
ぴったん,ラーラーもじぴったん~~
 
taikoo.city's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: British Crown Colony of Hong Kong
Posts: 182
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
About the N700 ... We can't discuss about wheel-rail grip and high speed acceleration without proper numbers ...

8500/8800KW on 56 tiny 305KW in each axle or on 8 big 1100KW body-mounted traction motors ???? wich is more effective for accelerating to high speeds ?????




EMU's are just an evolutionary step over the stone age steam traction.
Actually N700s have a similar acceleration to a commuter train (2.6km/h/s+), so it'll be more suitable for making frequent stops than any other high speed trainsets. Also you can't power an axle if the motor is not on the same carriage as the axle.
__________________
Sorry for being so political. If you think my comments are over the top, please leave me a kind reminder, thank you very much!

> Hong Kong is still part of the United Kingdom!! Please help BN(O)s to get what they deserve~~

> MTR North Island Line Discussion Thread
taikoo.city no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
rail, railways

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 03:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium