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Old February 9th, 2009, 02:51 AM   #421
Tri-ring
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
fixed formation trains ARE always EMU/DMU by "definition" ...

Have you ever seen the 3 car TGV runing around uncoupled from each other ???
I don't remember the actual number of carts but I believe the high speed record stun was less than 8 cart.(4 maybe?)
In any case your argument is as meaningless as a stub on a street.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
And you are wrong about the power/axles:

ICE3 = 8 cars , 4 powered cars , 4 unpowered cars , 8 powered bogies , 8 unpowered bogies , 16 powered axles , 16 unpowered axles

N700 = 32 axles of wich 28 are powered

TGV Sud Est = 2 power cars (4 + 4 powered axles) + 8 permanently-coupled cars (2 powered bogies , 4 powered axles , 7 unpowered bogies) = 12 powered , 14 unpowered axles

TGV Reseau = 2 power cars (4 + 4 powered axles) + 8 permanently-coupled cars (9 unpowered bogies) = 8 powered , 18 unpowered axles

(notice that a similar 200m long ICE3 and N700 would have 6 more axles than the standard-lenght TGV)


Free Flamming ... If you are assuming that unpowered axles are dead weight ... then the ICE3 carries a lot more "dead weight" than the TGV.
I used the numbers you provided, I am guessing you're really weak with them since I gave you the following numbers which you were not able to comprehend.
Axle load per powered axle
ICE3 25.625 tons
TGV 47.875 tons
N700 11.171875 tons

When the motors reaches those numbers in generating torque the train set starts to move.
Power out put of an electric motor is more or less linear so a train set with the lightest axle load starts to move and accelerate the fastest.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 01:27 AM   #422
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What the hell are you even arguing about? I cant even work it out.
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Old February 11th, 2009, 06:37 AM   #423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
I don't remember the actual number of carts but I believe the high speed record stun was less than 8 cart.(4 maybe?)
In any case your argument is as meaningless as a stub on a street.

Stop claimin crap ...


A TGV is composed of 3 FIXED cars ... MOTOR1 + intermediate snake + MOTOR2

Since every bogie in the intermediate consist is shared between adjacent cars you would need to go inside the shop/works to uncouple them using special gear ...


A ICE3/N700 are just standard coaches coupled together with a conecting bar.


that's what I'm talking about ... there is no "conventional loco haouled" concept aplicable there AT ALL.



Quote:
I used the numbers you provided, I am guessing you're really weak with them since I gave you the following numbers which you were not able to comprehend.
Axle load per powered axle
ICE3 25.625 tons
TGV 47.875 tons
N700 11.171875 tons

When the motors reaches those numbers in generating torque the train set starts to move.
Power out put of an electric motor is more or less linear so a train set with the lightest axle load starts to move and accelerate the fastest.
No ... what are the transmission relations (gear box ratios) , TOTAL maximum tractive effort , maximum starting power and so on on each and every traction motor in the different high speed trains ...


... do you have definitive numbers to base your claims ... or do you base your definitive conclusions on your assumption that different equations are easily transplanted from one chart to another ???



One way to easily compare is using OLD TEK with NEW TEK:

TGV Sud Est ... 12 POWERED and 14 UNPOWERED axles ... ~1/2
TGV Reseau ... 8 POWERED and 18 UNPOWERED axles ... ~1/3
ICE3 ... 16 powered axles and 16 unpowered axles ... 1/2
N700 ... 56 powered axles and 8 unpowered axles ... 7/8
ICE1/ETR500 = 8 powered and 56(?) unpowered axles ... 1/8 (both of them doulle lenght and seriously underpowered)




Now ... if one wants ONE particular kind of train ... one should choose the caracteristics that better fit ...


French TGV's are enineered to RUN at high speeds for long stretches of track ... N700 is engineered for the long "comuter-stile" of Tokkaido.
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Old February 12th, 2009, 08:43 AM   #424
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Just as an aftertought ... a couple of comments about how and why trains were/are built that way:


- the TGV was suposed to be a turbine powered trains so it was only in the end built as an electric EMU ... that brought the nuclear powerplants to france in the 80's

- faster trains were seen as "needing" a 1st car free of passengers due to safety reasons ... only in mid 90's did they start to consider putting passengers in the first coach of HST in europe (namely in ICE2)

- when the ICE3 project was being studied it was about a train to "newer" HSL with steeper grades (up to 4%) and they considered all possible traction solutions (even a train with 100% powered axles) ... they decided on 50% powered axles

- EMU trains were considered a non-optimal solution in europe until recently ... solely on the premisses that the EMU's were built by carriage manufacturers leaving locomotive manufacturers out of work ... only when the 3 great ones (alstom , siemens , adtrainz) took an hegemonic control of the sector did EMU stop being such black-sheeps.

- the 80's saw the size of transformers shrink ... that led to them being placed under the frame so high powered locomotives could be used in HST (namely the TGV)

- the 90's brought the inverter size shrinkage so they also became underfloor items ... and that allowed the use and abuse of distributed power EMU highspeed trains in europe (ICE3 , ETR4xx and variants) ...

- some other aditional advances in technology led to inumerous solutions being developed ... including pendulation and light aluminion extrusion and honeycomb ... all led to faster , more powerfull and lighter trains being able to go even faster

Aplying these principles to Britain:

70's ... HST and APT as a concept were two huge breaktru technology avancements ...

2000's ... Voyager and Pendolino 390's are "off the shelf" trains ... you only choos the color of the vinils to apply and what tone to give the anouncements.



Back on topic please ... Trains in Britain:
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Old February 12th, 2009, 01:45 PM   #425
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
Stop claimin crap ...


A TGV is composed of 3 FIXED cars ... MOTOR1 + intermediate snake + MOTOR2

Since every bogie in the intermediate consist is shared between adjacent cars you would need to go inside the shop/works to uncouple them using special gear ...


A ICE3/N700 are just standard coaches coupled together with a conecting bar.


that's what I'm talking about ... there is no "conventional loco haouled" concept aplicable there AT ALL.





No ... what are the transmission relations (gear box ratios) , TOTAL maximum tractive effort , maximum starting power and so on on each and every traction motor in the different high speed trains ...


... do you have definitive numbers to base your claims ... or do you base your definitive conclusions on your assumption that different equations are easily transplanted from one chart to another ???



One way to easily compare is using OLD TEK with NEW TEK:

TGV Sud Est ... 12 POWERED and 14 UNPOWERED axles ... ~1/2
TGV Reseau ... 8 POWERED and 18 UNPOWERED axles ... ~1/3
ICE3 ... 16 powered axles and 16 unpowered axles ... 1/2
N700 ... 56 powered axles and 8 unpowered axles ... 7/8
ICE1/ETR500 = 8 powered and 56(?) unpowered axles ... 1/8 (both of them doulle lenght and seriously underpowered)




Now ... if one wants ONE particular kind of train ... one should choose the caracteristics that better fit ...


French TGV's are enineered to RUN at high speeds for long stretches of track ... N700 is engineered for the long "comuter-stile" of Tokkaido.
I only have one word, "Pathetic"

Quote:
A TGV is composed of 3 FIXED cars ... MOTOR1 + intermediate snake + MOTOR2
A discription of a push/pull and still claiming as an EMU.

Quote:
No ... what are the transmission relations (gear box ratios) , TOTAL maximum tractive effort , maximum starting power and so on on each and every traction motor in the different high speed trains ...
Also making claim not knowing principle of a gear.
Really you should study the subject before claiming.

Tell me what do you think the gear ratio are for each motors given the fact you know each motor's power out put.
After all you posted them.
Gear ratios aren't going to be that different from one model to the other unless they have a very specfic function.
Get over it.
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Old February 13th, 2009, 12:50 AM   #426
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How about some good news instead of what ever you two have lost the plot on.

Quote:
Agility Is Preferred Bidder to Build New U.K. Trains

By David Altaner

Feb. 12 (Bloomberg) -- The U.K. Department for Transport today named Agility Trains, a group which includes John Laing Plc, Hitachi Ltd. and Barclays Plc, as the preferred bidder for a 7.5 billion-pound ($10.7 billion) contract to build and maintain a fleet of Super Express trains.

The trains for the Great Western and East Coast lines would replace existing high-speed trains which are up to 30 years old, the department said in a Regulatory News Service statement.

Last June, the U.K. said train-passenger trips have increased 40 percent over 10 years, to 1.13 billion, the highest since 1946. The government predicts journeys will rise another 30 percent over the next decade.

“The fleet will provide long-distance operators with the trains they need to meet the needs of a growing market and passengers with an attractive, cost-effective travel choice,” said Alec McTavish, director of policy and operations for the Association of Train Operating Companies, in the statement.

The Agility group will build a train factory, as well as depots in Bristol, Reading, Doncaster, Leeds and London, a move that will “create or safeguard” about 12,500 manufacturing jobs, the department said.

The 125 mile-per-hour trains will enter service at the beginning of 2013, linking London to cities including Cambridge, Leeds, Newcastle, Bristol and Edinburgh, the department said.

They would replace Intercity 125 and Intercity 225 high- speed trains with lighter, more energy-efficient diesel and electric locomotives and carriages that will carry up to 21 percent more passengers per train, according to the statement.

Secondary bidder for the contract is Express Rail Alliance, which includes Bombardier Inc., Siemens AG, Angel Trains Ltd. and Babcock & Brown Infrastructure Group, the release said.

Also, Bombardier was named preferred bidder to provide 120 new carriages for National Express Group Plc’s Stansted Express airport service, the department said. Bombardier would build the rolling stock in Derby, it said.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...j_tG8&refer=uk
1,400 carriages in one order and 120 in another one.
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Old February 13th, 2009, 05:30 AM   #427
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Great news. That is a also a great form of economic stimulus.

125 mph is about the same speed as German ICE trains.
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Old February 13th, 2009, 06:34 AM   #428
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映像
http://www1.ntv.co.jp/news/wmtram/dw...0&n_url=129019

Last edited by japanese001; February 13th, 2009 at 06:41 AM.
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Old February 14th, 2009, 06:52 AM   #429
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
I only have one word, "Pathetic"



A discription of a push/pull and still claiming as an EMU.



Also making claim not knowing principle of a gear.
Really you should study the subject before claiming.

Tell me what do you think the gear ratio are for each motors given the fact you know each motor's power out put.
After all you posted them.
Gear ratios aren't going to be that different from one model to the other unless they have a very specfic function.
Get over it.
You really are pathetic ...


Every EMU is a push-pull train ...

If you diferentiate between high speed trains (prior to the 80's & 90's) that have passengers in the 1st car and those that don't (wich by the way in europe there is NONE) ... it's purelly a consequence of it being unavoidable until early 90's to have the 1st car without passengers.

So NO train wich travelled above 200km/h could ever HAVE a passenger car up front ...

That's why the british developed the DVT cab car ...


And considering that only the recent models (x2000) have a non powered cab car in the front ... what crap are you trying to pull about push-pull ???

FACTS:

European (and national) regulations forbid (until recently) passengers in the 1st car of any HST

The 1st to do so were the Italians with ETR450 and the swedish X2000 , then followed by the german ICE2 (wich had a lot of problems due precisely to having a passenger car up front)


And stop pulling crap out of your mouth ...


Some TGV's have motored axles in the 3 basic components of a consist ... out of the "true" HST it is the LESS "conventional" train ...


And just by reading your posts I'm sure that I know much more about trains than you.


You surelly should get over it ... " British Railways - Pics, Info, News, Views" is not about your rantings os TGV being a locomotive ...
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Old February 14th, 2009, 02:46 PM   #430
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Are there any moderators on this site? Can you two please take your nothing to do with British trains or news discussions elsewhere...


Right, about this order with Agility Trains / Hitachi.

Firstly, at 125mph these are not the same speed as the German ICE. In fact, they are not any faster than the trains they are replacing. Worse, the Intercity 225 that operates on the East Coast was designed for 140mph (and has never been allowed to do it)

Secondly, if the government (and other political parties) are serious about getting on with true High Speed Rail, I cannot see how ordering £7.5bn of new stock which on some routes will be replaced within 10 years is good value for money.
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Old February 14th, 2009, 05:04 PM   #431
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 33Hz View Post
Are there any moderators on this site? Can you two please take your nothing to do with British trains or news discussions elsewhere...


Right, about this order with Agility Trains / Hitachi.

Firstly, at 125mph these are not the same speed as the German ICE. In fact, they are not any faster than the trains they are replacing. Worse, the Intercity 225 that operates on the East Coast was designed for 140mph (and has never been allowed to do it)

Secondly, if the government (and other political parties) are serious about getting on with true High Speed Rail, I cannot see how ordering £7.5bn of new stock which on some routes will be replaced within 10 years is good value for money.
The mumblings are, they'll be required to go at least 155mph for new lines.

Once in-cab signaling is finally installed, the ECML (and others) will run at 140mph.

Besides, new HS lines alongside 140mph classic lines would revolutionise UK rail from "ok" to "amazing". Good value in my opinion!
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Old February 14th, 2009, 07:13 PM   #432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 33Hz View Post
Right, about this order with Agility Trains / Hitachi.

Firstly, at 125mph these are not the same speed as the German ICE. In fact, they are not any faster than the trains they are replacing. Worse, the Intercity 225 that operates on the East Coast was designed for 140mph (and has never been allowed to do it)

Secondly, if the government (and other political parties) are serious about getting on with true High Speed Rail, I cannot see how ordering £7.5bn of new stock which on some routes will be replaced within 10 years is good value for money.
Also if Britain is going to build a HSR it's going to go along side the highly congested West Coast Mainline corridor in the first instance. This order is supposed to replace the trains operating on the East Coast Mainline and Great Western Railway routes, which will presumably have to wait much longer for a "true" HSR (if it ever comes).
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Old February 14th, 2009, 10:25 PM   #433
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoosier View Post
Great news. That is a also a great form of economic stimulus.

125 mph is about the same speed as German ICE trains.
Only in case of ICE TD, which is only used on Hamburg–København.
All other ICEs are faster (Vmax):

ICE T: 230 km/h
ICE 1: 280 km/h
ICE 2: 280 km/h
ICE 3: 330 km/h
ICE 3M: 330 km/h
ICE 3MF: 330 km/h
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Old February 14th, 2009, 11:33 PM   #434
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarflonlad View Post
The mumblings are, they'll be required to go at least 155mph for new lines.

Once in-cab signaling is finally installed, the ECML (and others) will run at 140mph.

Besides, new HS lines alongside 140mph classic lines would revolutionise UK rail from "ok" to "amazing". Good value in my opinion!
ECML, WCML and probably GWML may acheive such speed. MML will not without significant reallignment or the utilisation of tilting trains (aka the Pendolinos).

By the way 155mph on high speed lines is considered slow, especially if we're talking about 225mph 2nd Generation Wheel-on-Rail HSR instead of the 186mph 1st Generation counterpart.
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Old February 15th, 2009, 03:57 AM   #435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andysimo123 View Post
How about some good news instead of what ever you two have lost the plot on.
Quote:
Agility Is Preferred Bidder to Build New U.K. Trains

By David Altaner

Feb. 12 (Bloomberg) -- The U.K. Department for Transport today named Agility Trains, a group which includes John Laing Plc, Hitachi Ltd. and Barclays Plc, as the preferred bidder for a 7.5 billion-pound ($10.7 billion) contract to build and maintain a fleet of Super Express trains.

The trains for the Great Western and East Coast lines would replace existing high-speed trains which are up to 30 years old, the department said in a Regulatory News Service statement.

Last June, the U.K. said train-passenger trips have increased 40 percent over 10 years, to 1.13 billion, the highest since 1946. The government predicts journeys will rise another 30 percent over the next decade.

“The fleet will provide long-distance operators with the trains they need to meet the needs of a growing market and passengers with an attractive, cost-effective travel choice,” said Alec McTavish, director of policy and operations for the Association of Train Operating Companies, in the statement.

The Agility group will build a train factory, as well as depots in Bristol, Reading, Doncaster, Leeds and London, a move that will “create or safeguard” about 12,500 manufacturing jobs, the department said.

The 125 mile-per-hour trains will enter service at the beginning of 2013, linking London to cities including Cambridge, Leeds, Newcastle, Bristol and Edinburgh, the department said.

They would replace Intercity 125 and Intercity 225 high- speed trains with lighter, more energy-efficient diesel and electric locomotives and carriages that will carry up to 21 percent more passengers per train, according to the statement.

Secondary bidder for the contract is Express Rail Alliance, which includes Bombardier Inc., Siemens AG, Angel Trains Ltd. and Babcock & Brown Infrastructure Group, the release said.

Also, Bombardier was named preferred bidder to provide 120 new carriages for National Express Group Plc’s Stansted Express airport service, the department said. Bombardier would build the rolling stock in Derby, it said.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...j_tG8&refer=uk
1,400 carriages in one order and 120 in another one.
I don't know how much it is reported nor how much effect it has to the plan but in Japan it is reported that National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers is critical to this decision stating that IF Japan can develop HSR then British manufacturing can do it as well and should protect British manufacturing companies that are involved in this field. Even though Hitachi had declared that they will establish a factory as well as depots in Bristol, Reading, Doncaster, Leeds and London.

What do you think?
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Old February 15th, 2009, 06:20 PM   #436
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I think the RMT is making their usual noise without thinking about it. The other bid was backed by a Canadian and German company, afterall. As Hitachi has said they will establish a new facility in the UK to build these trains (as well as, like you say, new depots), this will increase the number of rail manufacturing jobs in the UK. Bombardier will still get orders from the other large procurements going on (1300 "traditional" carriages") and the UK re-establishes competition in the locally-made market.
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Old February 15th, 2009, 06:22 PM   #437
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By the way, the direct source of information about this contract is here: http://nds.coi.gov.uk/environment/fu...partment=False

Scroll right to the bottom for a zip file containing a high quality video about the trains, including the clip that NTV used above.
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Old February 15th, 2009, 07:46 PM   #438
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaeger View Post
A Couple of UK Airport/Rail Connection pics .

The Gatwick Express (London Victoria Station to Gatwick Airport)

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr

This train design makes the train looks so sad and tired like if somebody had hit him in the schoolyard and comes to report to teacher...
Is it so sad to be the Gatwick Express? Where is the true good British Design?
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Old February 15th, 2009, 08:51 PM   #439
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looks like darth vader!
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Old February 15th, 2009, 10:06 PM   #440
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Are the train specifications of the express rail alliance's offer known? Weigh more or less than Hitachi's offer?
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