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Old April 4th, 2009, 08:51 AM   #481
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I thought I would post a link to an entry from a mass transit blog "the transport politic" which discusses the proposed High Speed Two in England and Scotland:

http://thetransportpolitic.com/2009/...o-fleshed-out/


This a very important project that will do wonders for rail transport in the UK.
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Old April 7th, 2009, 10:40 PM   #482
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taikoo.city View Post
This train is exactly the model which the Class 395 Javelins are based on.
Yess ... and ICE 1/2 are based on standard coaches and DB120 locomotives ... so what ?
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Old April 7th, 2009, 11:02 PM   #483
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Knaresborough



(Yes, that is the mainline, not a heritage railway!)
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Old April 8th, 2009, 06:04 AM   #484
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That scene is unspeakably beautiful...

Anyways, for this High Speed 2 proposal, how do you guys suppose it would work? Could trains on the high speed line leave and take normal tracks to their final destinations? That way the whole project could be done in short phases but service would start immediately after phase 1 opens.
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Old April 8th, 2009, 10:16 AM   #485
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As always ... british rail pictures are always beautifull.



On a completelly different matter ... anyone knows what "really" happened to the old BR plans for the signaling upgrade to allow 140mph trains in the ECML ???


With current "pendulation" techniques it would be extremelly easy to upgrade the ECML to 250km/h (156mph) or even to "grab" the fast tracks in some sections and putt them at full 300km/h (175mph).

This coupled with bridge renewal and level crossing supression could be easily turned into a full UIC loading gauge + freight capacity increase also.
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Old April 8th, 2009, 10:26 AM   #486
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Double post ...
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Old April 8th, 2009, 12:50 PM   #487
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
With current "pendulation" techniques it would be extremelly easy to upgrade the ECML to 250km/h (156mph) or even to "grab" the fast tracks in some sections and putt them at full 300km/h (175mph).

This coupled with bridge renewal and level crossing supression could be easily turned into a full UIC loading gauge + freight capacity increase also.
Tilting technology is pretty useless on a straight rail line such as the East Coast Main Line. And even if trains could technically run faster there are still too many obstacles that will never allow greater speeds than the current 200 km/h. All four tracks are shared with slower traffic, the line passes through quite a lot of towns which would need noise protection and all level crossing had to be replaced.
Altogether it seems to me more forward thought to build a complete new line. It would provide additional capacity which are said to be needed anyway and it would allow high speed for intercity trains right from the start.
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Old April 8th, 2009, 05:07 PM   #488
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It's not the "pendulation" itself that matters but the lightweight nature of those trains that allows them to run over the speed limits for conventional trains ... even in STRAIGHT trackage.

And if you re-read my previous post you can easily see where I'm getting at ...


a) it would be EASY to put trains at 250km/h in the ECML using the current class 390 technology (spanish renfe uses NON-pendulating trains at 250km/h in their HSL)

b) the pendulation would be useles in the ECML ... but if a train happens to go beyond the ECML it would greatly benefit from it being there on the other routes.
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Old April 20th, 2009, 02:26 PM   #489
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whats happening with the proposed UltraSpeed Maglev line? do you think it will actually happen?
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Old April 20th, 2009, 02:34 PM   #490
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Nothing is happening with it.

It won't be built for several reasons:
1)Maglev is relatively untried and new
2)Standard HSR is integrated with the existing network, therefore...
3)Standard HSR can penetrate City Centres easier and...
4)Can use existing track therefore...
5)Is cheaper and can be built in stages
6)The City Centre penetration basically makes up for the slower speeds.
7)Maglev uses too much energy to run
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Old April 20th, 2009, 03:07 PM   #491
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
Nothing is happening with it.

It won't be built for several reasons:
1)Maglev is relatively untried and new
2)Standard HSR is integrated with the existing network, therefore...
3)Standard HSR can penetrate City Centres easier and...
4)Can use existing track therefore...
5)Is cheaper and can be built in stages
6)The City Centre penetration basically makes up for the slower speeds.
7)Maglev uses too much energy to run
Just to clarify.
1,2,4 is true
3 and 6 are irrelevant since it's the same whether it be Maglev or HSR
5 depends on the system
6 At speeds above 250 Km JR superconductive Maglev consumes less energy since it carries less mass and has less friction.
Levitation is achieved through ground force.

On the otherhand HSR maitenace cost due to wear and tear is much higher then the maglev since maglev has very little moving parts within trainset and virtually no physical connection with any of the infrastructure.
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Old April 20th, 2009, 05:03 PM   #492
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3 and 6 are irrelevant since it's the same whether it be Maglev or HSR
I don't see how. It's fairly easy to get HSL into City Centres - you use pre-existing railways. Can't do that with Maglev, hence why the Ultraspeed plans have Stratford and Heathrow as ends.
Quote:
5 depends on the system
All UK HSL plans are this system. With Maglev, you can't build a line to just north of Birmingham and have trains to Manchester or Scotland. HS1 was built in three stages (to Ashford, to Fawkenham Junction, to St Pancras). An HSL to Scotland would be able to serve it's destinations when 2 stages (London-Birmingham, Trans-Pennine) have been built, and most of them just with the former. You can build short pieces, relieving the bottlenecks on classic-lines and join them up in the end, using classic lines in the meantime.

A Maglev can only serve as far as it's been built. London-Birmingham wouldn't have enough benefits to be worth building as a Maglev, you'd need the whole thing sorted to justify any one part of it.
Quote:
6 At speeds above 250 Km JR superconductive Maglev consumes less energy since it carries less mass and has less friction.
The studies and so on all point out that Maglev is far less energy efficient, probably as you'd either build a 500km/h Maglev (because it cannot easily penetrate city centres) or a 300-350km/h HSL.
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Levitation is achieved through ground force.
Alan Titchmarsh, Charlie Dimmock and Tommy whats-his-name?
Quote:
On the otherhand HSR maitenace cost due to wear and tear is much higher then the maglev since maglev has very little moving parts within trainset and virtually no physical connection with any of the infrastructure.
indeed, but that is irellevant, seeing as Her Majesty's Government and the Civil Service care nothing about the long-term, especially when it comes to Transport.

I wasn't saying whether Maglev was good, I was saying why it wouldn't be built.
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Old April 20th, 2009, 05:41 PM   #493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
I don't see how. It's fairly easy to get HSL into City Centres - you use pre-existing railways. Can't do that with Maglev,
The JR maglevs runs on rail under 100Km and the width is standard gauge. So it can utilize existing rail system with some modification.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
hence why the Ultraspeed plans have Stratford and Heathrow as ends.All UK HSL plans are this system. With Maglev, you can't build a line to just north of Birmingham and have trains to Manchester or Scotland. HS1 was built in three stages (to Ashford, to Fawkenham Junction, to St Pancras). An HSL to Scotland would be able to serve it's destinations when 2 stages (London-Birmingham, Trans-Pennine) have been built, and most of them just with the former. You can build short pieces, relieving the bottlenecks on classic-lines and join them up in the end, using classic lines in the meantime.

A Maglev can only serve as far as it's been built. London-Birmingham wouldn't have enough benefits to be worth building as a Maglev, you'd need the whole thing sorted to justify any one part of it.
It total depends on which maglev system(transrapid or JR system) and how far MOT is willing to go.
If it is decided to build everything from scratch then you'll need to develop a completely new cost estimate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
The studies and so on all point out that Maglev is far less energy efficient, probably as you'd either build a 500km/h Maglev (because it cannot easily penetrate city centres) or a 300-350km/h HSL.
I haven't read any of those studies could you point them to me.

Basically maglevs have little moving parts, less mass, and utilizes the same electromagnetic principle for motor as a conventional HSR.
If you compare a HSR going 300Km with a maglev going 500Km then ovecourse Maglev will be utilizing more energy(E=1/2MS^2) but if you compare a HSR going 250Km with a Maglev going at the same speed then Maglev theortically utilizes less energy becuase it is more energy efficient than conventional HSR since it has less points to lose energy.(Heat through electric resistance(compared to JR system super conductor system), mechanical friction & contact between rail and wheel, mechanical transfer loss combined with more mass and air friction through pantagraphs)


Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
indeed, but that is irellevant, seeing as Her Majesty's Government and the Civil Service care nothing about the long-term, especially when it comes to Transport.

I wasn't saying whether Maglev was good, I was saying why it wouldn't be built.
Probably so but some points you made on technical side needs to be reevaluated.
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Old April 20th, 2009, 07:11 PM   #494
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Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
The JR maglevs runs on rail under 100Km and the width is standard gauge. So it can utilize existing rail system with some modification.
Why can't they run more than 60 miles on conventional rail, or are you just being completely stupid and once again forgot that speed is measured in km/h. 60mph would be too slow for the lines into London, which are nearly all at least 90mph through at least the outer suburbs. Also useless for extending off the core line. London-Manchester via a London-Birmingham maglev at 350km/h will be a time gain of 5 minutes over today, for the cost of an HSL (plus maintenance for a good few years) that runs at 300km/h (and so uses about the same amount of energy) that takes off more time. Also would cause havoc for the other services using those lines - the stopping ones are 90mph at least. Having Maglev trains run on rails is a non-started until they can do it at about 150km/h, at least. Especially given that the main point of the line is congestion relief, so as running at slow speeds will cause more congestion, completely ruins the case for such a line.
Quote:
It totally depends on which maglev system(transrapid or JR system) and how far MOT is willing to go.
MOT is a motoring test - no idea what you mean.
Quote:
I haven't read any of those studies could you point them to me.
www.google.com and "High Speed 2". Or the Wikipedia article on HS2 and the external links. It's hardly difficult - you can't argue technical points and then admit you don't know how to google!
Quote:
(Heat through electric resistance(compared to JR system super conductor system)
Just a thought, but how do you keep it cool enough for super-conductivity? Won't that need energy.
Quote:
Probably so but some points you made on technical side needs to be reevaluated.
Why - it won't happen, simply as you ignore all the political problems, all the research that the DfT has done into speeding up rail journeys for the UK and so on.

Can I ask whether your name is a typo - surely it should be "tiring". You constantly beat the maglev drum on lots of different HSL threads, yet your silly mistakes (km, rather than km/h, MOT rather than DfT) and unwillingness to do some research into the specific subject undermine your whole argument. I know all about less friction and so on. However I cannot seem to take your argument seriously as you cannot use the correct unit for speed!
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Old April 20th, 2009, 08:43 PM   #495
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
Why can't they run more than 60 miles on conventional rail, or are you just being completely stupid and once again forgot that speed is measured in km/h. 60mph would be too slow for the lines into London, which are nearly all at least 90mph through at least the outer suburbs. Also useless for extending off the core line. London-Manchester via a London-Birmingham maglev at 350km/h will be a time gain of 5 minutes over today, for the cost of an HSL (plus maintenance for a good few years) that runs at 300km/h (and so uses about the same amount of energy) that takes off more time. Also would cause havoc for the other services using those lines - the stopping ones are 90mph at least. Having Maglev trains run on rails is a non-started until they can do it at about 150km/h, at least. Especially given that the main point of the line is congestion relief, so as running at slow speeds will cause more congestion, completely ruins the case for such a line.
He is right about the maximum speed (100km/h or 62mph) of JR Maglev on conventional tracks. Above this speed the train's gonna float so it would be difficult to stay on the tracks. Besides, maglev requires linear motors installed along the line, and their sizes are beyond the British loading gauge. So I don't think any through service between maglev and conventional rail network would be possible, at least for Britain. If it must be built it has to be built all at once, from London all the way to Glasgow (via Edinburgh).
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Old April 20th, 2009, 09:19 PM   #496
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taikoo.city View Post
He is right about the maximum speed (100km/h or 62mph) of JR Maglev on conventional tracks.
I never said he was, I criticised his 100km speed (how a distance can be a speed beats me). I then said how impractical having trains run at that speed was.
Quote:
Above this speed the train's gonna float so it would be difficult to stay on the tracks. Besides, maglev requires linear motors installed along the line, and their sizes are beyond the British loading gauge. So I don't think any through service between maglev and conventional rail network would be possible, at least for Britain. If it must be built it has to be built all at once, from London all the way to Glasgow (via Edinburgh).
Thank you for confirming my point, and adding another reason why Maglev can't penetrate city centres - the track would need massive upgrade in gauge and with linear motors.
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Old April 21st, 2009, 12:54 AM   #497
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The UK will not have a maglev line. Ever.

Now, back to reality...






Splendid.
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Old April 21st, 2009, 05:04 AM   #498
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Always mouth-drooling with those pictures.


Now for the completelly irrelevant blaber ...

Contrary to Japan where a "segregated" UIC gauge was created new in the 60's ... in the UK there are abundant 150/200 y.o. railway trackage ... and worse ... much ofit is still functioning today.

What british railways need today is capacity + speed increasing measures ... and those are the hard ones to acomplish due to the "usual" british problems (nimby's and such)

The main corridors could easily be upgraded (it only takes a couple of weekend re.routings to pass a 4 track STRAIGHT railway from ATP to in-cab-signaling ...and a speed bump from 125mph to let's say 175mph in the main lines could be easily achieved within the everyday renewall programs) ... add some re-tracking (recreating the old 4 track railaways where some tracks were removed) could easily increase capacity in some places ... re.laying the old trackage in some closed corridors could led to some miles of 175/200mph railways added to the network.

Some RECENT examples of the good and bad procedures to make things work:

- HS1 (Folkestone-Ashford-Maidstone-Norchester-Northfleet-Dagenham) = 90km ... included only track quadruplication (2 +2 tracks near each other adds up as quadruplication) + HSR near a motorway

Astonishingly they managed to insert a 200mph(?) HSR some 10 miles inside london itself without that much hassle /nevermind the tunnel under the thames).

The primary acesses to london are well covered (5x 4 tracks routes) ... in the middle of the country (york-manchester-liverpool-birmingham) is where the problem really resides ...
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Old April 21st, 2009, 05:59 AM   #499
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
I never said he was, I criticised his 100km speed (how a distance can be a speed beats me). I then said how impractical having trains run at that speed was.Thank you for confirming my point, and adding another reason why Maglev can't penetrate city centres - the track would need massive upgrade in gauge and with linear motors.
But I still support the construction of a maglev although it may not happen in the near future. By the end of the century it may become a popular replacement of conventional HSR and I don't think Britain can't be the first country to start the trend, after guinea pigs like China (Shanghai Transrapid) and Japan (Chuo Shinkansen with their own technology).
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Old April 21st, 2009, 11:51 AM   #500
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
The main corridors could easily be upgraded (it only takes a couple of weekend re.routings to pass a 4 track STRAIGHT railway from ATP to in-cab-signaling ...and a speed bump from 125mph to let's say 175mph in the main lines could be easily achieved within the everyday renewall programs) ... add some re-tracking (recreating the old 4 track railaways where some tracks were removed) could easily increase capacity in some places ... re.laying the old trackage in some closed corridors could led to some miles of 175/200mph railways added to the network.
Unfortunately it's not that simple.
To accomadate true HSR, the foundation underneath the rail needs to be fortified with cement and track design needs to be assured that minimum radius is 4000m to maintain 280Km/h without slowing down or incorporate a titling mechanism with trainsets. N700 series tilting mechanism is just for that and without it, it needs to slow down to 255Km at curves with 2500m radius.
Without these modifications it will become the same as "Classic lines" in France.
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