daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old April 21st, 2009, 01:58 PM   #501
Mostly Lurking
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,823
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
The main corridors could easily be upgraded (it only takes a couple of weekend re.routings to pass a 4 track STRAIGHT railway from ATP to in-cab-signaling ...and a speed bump from 125mph to let's say 175mph in the main lines could be easily achieved within the everyday renewall programs) ... add some re-tracking (recreating the old 4 track railaways where some tracks were removed) could easily increase capacity in some places ... re.laying the old trackage in some closed corridors could led to some miles of 175/200mph railways added to the network.
No wonder nobody takes you seriously as you continue to demonstrate that you have no idea about railway engineering.
Mostly Lurking no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old April 21st, 2009, 10:42 PM   #502
uk-highspeed
High Speed Rail Fan
 
uk-highspeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Cambridge, UK
Posts: 92
Likes (Received): 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
Astonishingly they managed to insert a 200mph(?) HSR some 10 miles inside london itself without that much hassle /nevermind the tunnel under the thames)
Not sure what your point is, but technically, the line into London to St Pancras is limited to 143mph (230km/h) max speed, with the rest of HS1 being 186mph (300km/h), except the section through Ashford which is limited to 168mph (270km/h). Really, HS1 is not a good example of HSR - none of it is capable of 200mph operation. Depends on your definition of 'hassle' too
uk-highspeed no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 21st, 2009, 11:42 PM   #503
london24/7
Registered User
 
london24/7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 10
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by uk-highspeed View Post
Not sure what your point is, but technically, the line into London to St Pancras is limited to 143mph (230km/h) max speed, with the rest of HS1 being 186mph (300km/h), except the section through Ashford which is limited to 168mph (270km/h). Really, HS1 is not a good example of HSR - none of it is capable of 200mph operation. Depends on your definition of 'hassle' too
The line was started in 98 so it was built to 300kph standards. the govt is talking about 220 mph for the next route.
All this talk apart JR maglev going on rails is ridiculous, maglev can only go on maglev tracks, thats the whole point why rail HSR is better because it can use existing tracks and get to city center stations. Unless you want to build maglev viaducts over every city it goes through.
It is ridiculous to say the ECML could be 175mph. 140 is feasible on some straight sections but it would ruin local service patterns. The ECML simply has too tight curves to facilitate anything above 140mph. Even if it was straightened it would cost billions and it still goes through loads of built up areas. The WCML upgrade cost £12bn, more than new spanish HSRlines are costing of eqivalent length.
The only closed corridor capable of supporting anything remotely HS is the great central, however than is probably going to be worse then the ECML as it goes through and around the pennines. Most closed railways were regional or diversionary routes or smaller, and most single track. Ridiculous to suggest they would be capable of HSR.

by the way, MOT means ministry of transport so he was right to refer to MOT - it changed to dft in 1992.
london24/7 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 22nd, 2009, 12:45 AM   #504
sotonsi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,563

Quote:
Originally Posted by london24/7 View Post
by the way, MOT means ministry of transport so he was right to refer to MOT - it changed to dft in 1992.
I knew, but it was another thing showing Tiring isn't that informed about the UK. I mean 17 years is rather a long time, and given as we were talking about now, MOT would be wrong - it's like talking about 'Marathon bars' rather than 'Snickers bars' and 'Opal Fruits' rather than 'Starburst' (both more recent changes than '92, IIRC, definitely in the case of Opal Fruits), or the 'Soviet Union' rather than 'the former Soviet Union' or whatever.
sotonsi está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old April 22nd, 2009, 12:46 AM   #505
taikoo.city
ぴったん,ラーラーもじぴったん~~
 
taikoo.city's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: British Crown Colony of Hong Kong
Posts: 182
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by uk-highspeed View Post
Really, HS1 is not a good example of HSR - none of it is capable of 200mph operation.
I can't agree with you on this, otherwise the Japanese Shinkansen, arguably the first HSR in the world which only a small proportion of its network* has a line speed of 300km/h would not fall into your definition of a HSR. Besides, at least some parts of HS1 is tested at 333km/h, and speed up to 320km/h had been reached in the passenger record run from Paris to London St. Pancras.

*The ONLY Shinkansen line with linespeed above 275km/h up to date is the section of Sanyo Shinkansen from Himeji to Kyushu, running at 300km/h since 1997 (apart from 500 series and N700 series, all trains are restricted to 285km/h or their designed top speed). The Tokaido Shinkansen between Tokyo and Osaka only has a linespeed of 255~270km/h, and the Tohoku Shinkansen only has a linespeed of 240~275km/h, with part of the line scheduled for speed upgrade to 300~320km/h by 2012, with the introduction of E5.
__________________
Sorry for being so political. If you think my comments are over the top, please leave me a kind reminder, thank you very much!

> Hong Kong is still part of the United Kingdom!! Please help BN(O)s to get what they deserve~~

> MTR North Island Line Discussion Thread

Last edited by taikoo.city; April 22nd, 2009 at 12:57 AM.
taikoo.city no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 22nd, 2009, 03:29 AM   #506
Tri-ring
Expert
 
Tri-ring's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 459
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
I knew, but it was another thing showing Tiring isn't that informed about the UK. I mean 17 years is rather a long time, and given as we were talking about now, MOT would be wrong - it's like talking about 'Marathon bars' rather than 'Snickers bars' and 'Opal Fruits' rather than 'Starburst' (both more recent changes than '92, IIRC, definitely in the case of Opal Fruits), or the 'Soviet Union' rather than 'the former Soviet Union' or whatever.
I pity you, only being able to nitpick and/or make hairsplitting arguements since you lack knowledge of the main issue.

Upgrading present railways to facilitate JR maglev system is the same as to upgrading it to HSR standards.
In a way it will be less complicated since you do not need to tear out the present tracks to fortify the foundation with concrete nor reline it with new set of rails. With the JR Maglev system, basically you only need to construct side walls for the induction coils to be installed on each side of the rail and eliminate all at-grade crossing which is necessary anyway to upgrade it to HSR standards.
__________________
banned for denial of war crimes in world war 2.
Tri-ring no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 22nd, 2009, 08:14 AM   #507
sotavento
Registered user
 
sotavento's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7,419
Likes (Received): 322

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
Unfortunately it's not that simple.
To accomadate true HSR, the foundation underneath the rail needs to be fortified with cement and track design needs to be assured that minimum radius is 4000m to maintain 280Km/h without slowing down or incorporate a titling mechanism with trainsets. N700 series tilting mechanism is just for that and without it, it needs to slow down to 255Km at curves with 2500m radius.
Without these modifications it will become the same as "Classic lines" in France.
The corridors are there ... the usefullness to all future traffic is there ... so the hard part of the job is already decided.

Quote:
it only takes a couple of weekend re.routings to pass a 4 track STRAIGHT railway from ATP to in-cab-signaling ...and a speed bump from 125mph to let's say 175mph in the main lines could be easily achieved within the everyday renewall programs
Someday one has got to renew those tracks to propper XXI century standards ...
__________________
"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça
sotavento no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 22nd, 2009, 09:03 AM   #508
sotavento
Registered user
 
sotavento's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7,419
Likes (Received): 322

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mostly Lurking View Post
No wonder nobody takes you seriously as you continue to demonstrate that you have no idea about railway engineering.
Nobody takes me seriously ??? That simply means that those same people shouldn't be taken seriously ... since they are the ones that don't have a clue about railway engineering at all.


Track upgrades ... I mean "sucessfull" track upgrades are made everywhere else other than the UK ...


And pardon my french but I do understand a lot about railway engineering and HSL construction ... theres been nothing other than railway engeniering and HSL planing/preparations in my work in the past 10/20 years.

Never mind the little detail that some 400km of 137,5mph track were RENEWED/UPGRADED in my neighbourhood (some other 200km still sto go) and that some other 600km of "true" HSL at speeds of 220mph are in the first stages of construction nearby ... actuall my house will be only 500m away from a 10km long bridge wich will allow speeds of 125mph over iths 4 tracks ...


... and specially dnever mind about railway engineering being actually my area of expertise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
Unfortunately it's not that simple.
To accomadate true HSR, the foundation underneath the rail needs to be fortified with cement and track design needs to be assured that minimum radius is 4000m to maintain 280Km/h without slowing down or incorporate a titling mechanism with trainsets. N700 series tilting mechanism is just for that and without it, it needs to slow down to 255Km at curves with 2500m radius.
Without these modifications it will become the same as "Classic lines" in France.
Thats assumed in my previous statement ...

It's preciselly THAT SIMPLE ... read bellow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by uk-highspeed View Post
Not sure what your point is, but technically, the line into London to St Pancras is limited to 143mph (230km/h) max speed, with the rest of HS1 being 186mph (300km/h), except the section through Ashford which is limited to 168mph (270km/h). Really, HS1 is not a good example of HSR - none of it is capable of 200mph operation. Depends on your definition of 'hassle' too
But is the ONLY example that we can apply to the british case scenario .. .what was decided to build in HS1 are your only real options to create new HSR in the UK ... learn from it.

but in theory a line built to 200mph could as easily be built for 220mph or even higher speeds ... its the path/alignement that decides what the slower speeds


(special notice about Tri-ring comment above)

To "need" a 4000m radius curve assumes that you need to put a curve in the track alignement in the first place ... if you get a straight route theres no real limit there ... in reality (other than sharp curves limiting full speed trains) only the tecnical qualities of the track infraestructure decide what is the speed limit of a given route (cant , trackbase , catenary and such)

The question is not about why don't we(meaning you in the UK) built it ... it's about what we really need to built/renew/upgrade to have a functioning High Speed Network.

Quote:
Originally Posted by london24/7 View Post
The line was started in 98 so it was built to 300kph standards. the govt is talking about 220 mph for the next route.
All this talk apart JR maglev going on rails is ridiculous, maglev can only go on maglev tracks, thats the whole point why rail HSR is better because it can use existing tracks and get to city center stations. Unless you want to build maglev viaducts over every city it goes through.
It is ridiculous to say the ECML could be 175mph. 140 is feasible on some straight sections but it would ruin local service patterns. The ECML simply has too tight curves to facilitate anything above 140mph. Even if it was straightened it would cost billions and it still goes through loads of built up areas. The WCML upgrade cost £12bn, more than new spanish HSRlines are costing of eqivalent length.
The only closed corridor capable of supporting anything remotely HS is the great central, however than is probably going to be worse then the ECML as it goes through and around the pennines. Most closed railways were regional or diversionary routes or smaller, and most single track. Ridiculous to suggest they would be capable of HSR.

by the way, MOT means ministry of transport so he was right to refer to MOT - it changed to dft in 1992.


Other than the long Scotland-London routes a "true" 200mph HSL would be of little use in the midlands intericty corridors.

140mph over those main intercity corridors would be much more usefull ...


And about the UK vs Spain ... most of spanish HSL run along true deserts of civilization ... theres no comparison to the fully build up british countryside at all.



Just draw a straigh line in the map between london (and its 5 radiating main lines) , Birmingham (and it's lack of unjammed rail accesses) , manchester (and it's total lack of free acess corridors) , Leeds (and it's hilly surroundings) and the Scotish metropolis (and its 4 existant connecting railways)



What you got as a result is an utopian dream ... you don't want to have the trouble of doing any of the ground/hard work of correcting any of the major problems with the current network ... but instead you just want to create another line on the map ...

Does this sound familiar ???

__________________
"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça
sotavento no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 22nd, 2009, 10:37 AM   #509
uk-highspeed
High Speed Rail Fan
 
uk-highspeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Cambridge, UK
Posts: 92
Likes (Received): 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by taikoo.city View Post
I can't agree with you on this, otherwise the Japanese Shinkansen, arguably the first HSR in the world which only a small proportion of its network* has a line speed of 300km/h would not fall into your definition of a HSR.
Fair point - I was particularly meaning a "new standard" HSR, which I think we all accept should be built to take possible day-to-day commercial operation of at-least 220mph (350km/h) - whether that speed is used initially or not.

Last edited by uk-highspeed; April 22nd, 2009 at 10:42 AM.
uk-highspeed no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 22nd, 2009, 11:51 AM   #510
taikoo.city
ぴったん,ラーラーもじぴったん~~
 
taikoo.city's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: British Crown Colony of Hong Kong
Posts: 182
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
Nobody takes me seriously ??? That simply means that those same people shouldn't be taken seriously ... since they are the ones that don't have a clue about railway engineering at all.
Nobody takes you seriously coz you've been a TGV fanboy. It doesn't matter if you are a railway engineering expert, your opinions (regarding the "superiority" of TGV-like high speed locos/push and pull) are still biased.
__________________
Sorry for being so political. If you think my comments are over the top, please leave me a kind reminder, thank you very much!

> Hong Kong is still part of the United Kingdom!! Please help BN(O)s to get what they deserve~~

> MTR North Island Line Discussion Thread
taikoo.city no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 22nd, 2009, 12:51 PM   #511
sotonsi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,563

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
I pity you, only being able to nitpick and/or make hairsplitting arguements since you lack knowledge of the main issue.
really - I was just showing obvious symptoms of your lack of knowledge. I'll demostrate it with this post that attempts to put this idea into a British context, rather than a generic context.
Quote:
Upgrading present railways to facilitate JR maglev system is the same as to upgrading it to HSR standards.
depends on the railway. I take it you really aren't familiar with main lines coming in from the North and West into London - they were ready to take High Speed Trains (generic, not the specific ones, which they take anyway) running at speeds of up to 200km/h 10 years ago (30 in the case of the WCML).
Quote:
In a way it will be less complicated since you do not need to tear out the present tracks to fortify the foundation with concrete nor reline it with new set of rails.
If we're comparing like for like, you don't need to for either - you are suggesting 100km/h running. That doesn't need fortification. The original route of Eurostar into London didn't need that, even when HS1 was built. Trains also went faster than 100km/h when the track speeds allowed it (that line was slow, bear in mind - the ones that might be taken over are 200km/h)
Quote:
With the JR Maglev system, basically you only need to construct side walls for the induction coils to be installed on each side of the rail and eliminate all at-grade crossing which is necessary anyway to upgrade it to HSR standards.
IIRC, the Eurostar route which ran at track speeds (ie faster in places than your maglev) went over level crossings (non-existent on the main lines you might take over anyway)

The comparison you are making is between building an HSL into the centre of London and getting a Maglev to take over classic rails - kind of like apples and oranges. If you want to talk about HSL going at a reasonable speed (ie more than 200km/h) into Central London, you have to talk about Maglev tracks into the city centre. If you want to talk about Maglev using normal rails at 100km/h to get to the city centre, you have to talk about HSL going classic speeds to get to the city centre.

Maglev at least requires all these induction loops (not to mention gauge improvements) being built before sharing a classic line for the last bit. Regulations would also mean that the railway is closed while putting these loops in - the disruption and cost would be as bad, if not worse than relaying the track on concrete. HSL requires nothing, zip, nada.

Of course, this is mute, as HS2 is about congestion relief and therefore would need a segregated route into London. This would involve using disused and goods tracks, plus a shortish tunnel to get from the GWML to the Euston slow lines (slow lines diverted onto re-electrified DC lines south of Queens' Park, or into Paddington/Crossrail via a different tunnel). You could I guess, have it Maglev, however there's the problem of the speed increases being not worth it as all the population centres are within 400 miles of each other, and the interoperability being annoying (you couldn't serve Liverpool, Europe, bits that are on unconstructed route etc easily or quickly). Maglev is unable to cheaply do the aims of HS2. That doesn't mean it won't be useful in the future but current Maglev technology just isn't good enough.

Do we have to bother with a Maglev fan-boy who doesn't have a clue about the UK network? I'm tired of tiring. Having shown him to be ignorant to the specific problems of the UK, I rest my case.
sotonsi está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old April 22nd, 2009, 08:23 PM   #512
london24/7
Registered User
 
london24/7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 10
Likes (Received): 0

Am i missing something or do people actually think you can make routes that take railed trains and maglevs? no you cant! If you ran HSR into central london youd have to bore tunnels to avoid the congestion of the E/WCMLs like HS1, And you'd have to do the same for maglev unless you elevated it above the CMLs. But the only mature maglev tech is transrapid, JR maglev wont be ready for some years. Even in china they cant use transrapid within 50m of populated areas, i suspect this would be even more in the UK with stringent health and safety, considering this line goes right up through north london that would rule transrapid out, besides, transrapid at 300mph is really not worth it over 220mph HSR. Not to mention the issues of having an isolated transrapid track you cant run trains on and off.
london24/7 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 23rd, 2009, 02:36 AM   #513
Tri-ring
Expert
 
Tri-ring's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 459
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by london24/7 View Post
Am i missing something or do people actually think you can make routes that take railed trains and maglevs? no you cant! If you ran HSR into central london youd have to bore tunnels to avoid the congestion of the E/WCMLs like HS1, And you'd have to do the same for maglev unless you elevated it above the CMLs. But the only mature maglev tech is transrapid, JR maglev wont be ready for some years. Even in china they cant use transrapid within 50m of populated areas, i suspect this would be even more in the UK with stringent health and safety, considering this line goes right up through north london that would rule transrapid out, besides, transrapid at 300mph is really not worth it over 220mph HSR. Not to mention the issues of having an isolated transrapid track you cant run trains on and off.
First of all why do you rule out the JR method out?
Mature technology?
It may not be proven technology in terms of commercial usage but it has been tested for more than 15 years with a track record that takes it around planet earth. In fact it's been tested then most recent HSR models like the AGV.

Health issue?
If you're talking about electromagnetic radiation, then we will just have to turn off every electric appliances as well.
High power electric line creates an electrostatic field, microwave ovens, MRIs, radio, TV, PC, even our planet earth creates an electro magnetic field that shields us from radiation from the sun.
It's just another phobia which has not been clinically proven to be true or false.(By the way I been living under a high power electric power line for the past 30 years)
If it's peace of mind that you want just place a metal chain linked fence around the facility like the one in front of a microwave oven peep hole. It's more then enough to shield any electromagnatism that bleeds out.
__________________
banned for denial of war crimes in world war 2.
Tri-ring no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 23rd, 2009, 03:24 AM   #514
sotavento
Registered user
 
sotavento's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7,419
Likes (Received): 322

Quote:
Originally Posted by taikoo.city View Post
Nobody takes you seriously coz you've been a TGV fanboy. It doesn't matter if you are a railway engineering expert, your opinions (regarding the "superiority" of TGV-like high speed locos/push and pull) are still biased.
People are just stupid in their views about what is and what isn't the true High Speed technology ...


And about me being a TGV fanboy ... nothing more than bul$hit thrown to the wall by some people that are the real fanboys of something else other than the TGV.


Completely offtopic subject but nonetheless:

The APT , Talgo , Pendolino and TGV "concepts" were basically the only "new-tech" concepts introduced in the TGV age (lets call it high speed age instead) ... multiple units stretched to 200mph speeds ARE NOT inovative in anything other than their nose cone design ...

This is true to any HST out there other than the 4 mentioned above ... top-and-tailing (ICE1/2 , ETR500,ACELA) , push-pull (X2000) or EMU (ICE3 , shinkansen) are just conventional cars pushed to high speeds ... but this has nothing to do about either they are or not HST ... they ARE.

And the other discussion was about the advantages and disadvantages of higher-acceleration/startingpower of bigger engined trains with fewer motored axles (like ICE3/TGV) versus fully motored axles with smaller motors (like N700) ... but given that both tipes of trains are used in completelly diferent environments that's a nonsense discussion.
__________________
"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça
sotavento no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 23rd, 2009, 03:27 AM   #515
Mostly Lurking
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,823
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
Completely offtopic subject but nonetheless:

<snip crap>
Why bother then.
Mostly Lurking no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 23rd, 2009, 03:49 AM   #516
sotavento
Registered user
 
sotavento's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7,419
Likes (Received): 322

Quote:
Originally Posted by london24/7 View Post
Am i missing something or do people actually think you can make routes that take railed trains and maglevs? no you cant! If you ran HSR into central london youd have to bore tunnels to avoid the congestion of the E/WCMLs like HS1, And you'd have to do the same for maglev unless you elevated it above the CMLs. But the only mature maglev tech is transrapid, JR maglev wont be ready for some years. Even in china they cant use transrapid within 50m of populated areas, i suspect this would be even more in the UK with stringent health and safety, considering this line goes right up through north london that would rule transrapid out, besides, transrapid at 300mph is really not worth it over 220mph HSR. Not to mention the issues of having an isolated transrapid track you cant run trains on and off.
What is the problem with boring tunnels in the UK ??? the country is already full of them ...
__________________
"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça
sotavento no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 23rd, 2009, 04:16 AM   #517
taikoo.city
ぴったん,ラーラーもじぴったん~~
 
taikoo.city's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: British Crown Colony of Hong Kong
Posts: 182
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
-
It depends on how you define HSR technology: the vehicles or the tracks, or both. You may be an EXPERT (and strong defender) on TGV technology having been working on this field for decades but you shouldn't be in the position of criticizing and attacking Shinkansen technology if you know nothing, or only a tiny fraction, of that technology and service philosophy. TGV is simply NOT for Britain because it's aimed for long-distance travel (and an alternative to flying) instead of a more metro-style service (and congestion relief) like the Shinkansen's been running since the late 60s. Britain is also more similar to Japan than any other European countries being a small island with relatively higher population density than the continent. Britain would also need more tunnels for HSR than the continent due to NIMBYs and developed areas along some of the main lines. You can call me Anti-TGV if you like but I'm not a fanboy or fangirl of ANY particular technology, and would prefer British technology if it managed to be successfully developed back in the APT era. It's a pity they eventually scrapped the whole project and sold everything to Italy (and not Hitachi).
__________________
Sorry for being so political. If you think my comments are over the top, please leave me a kind reminder, thank you very much!

> Hong Kong is still part of the United Kingdom!! Please help BN(O)s to get what they deserve~~

> MTR North Island Line Discussion Thread
taikoo.city no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 23rd, 2009, 04:20 AM   #518
sotavento
Registered user
 
sotavento's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7,419
Likes (Received): 322

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mostly Lurking View Post
Why bother then.
Because it's relevant to other discussions going on over here in this "all subjects aboard" topic ???


Knowing and keeping in mind what kind of different technological solutions were apllyed elsewere on the world at a given time and age can helf us avoid future mistakes in the future.

For example:


Itally = 200km/h fast electric trains in the 30's , fast loco hauled + EMU's in the 60's , pendolino in the 80's , 3000vDC top-and-tail ETR500 in the 90's ... conversion to HST under 25KV50Hz AC in the XXI century ...

Japan = colonial/cape (?) gauge , "new trunck route" built from scratchwithout level crossings , 25Kv50HzAC , UIC gauge , 210 km/h in the 60's ... speed increases a step at a time (220 , 240 ,270 , 300) along the folowing decades

UK = 160 km/h steam traction i nthe 30's , 160km/h diesel traction in the 60's , 160 (then 176km/h) electric traction in the 70's ... 200km/h diesel and electric traction in the 80's (160km/h under 3rd rail) ... this along major track closures in the 60's/70's (the GCR being the most traumatic case)

France = 200km/h in the 60's on some routes ... track upgrades to 160/200 km/h ... LGV Est at 270km/h in the 80's ... new LGV's and upgrades to old LGV's up to 320km/h

USA = 160km/h named trains in the 30's ... end of rail express services in the 60's ... "Acela"

Some evolve slowly ... some have speed bumps now and then ... some stop in time ... or even go back in time (like the usa)

__________________
"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça
sotavento no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 23rd, 2009, 04:27 AM   #519
sotavento
Registered user
 
sotavento's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7,419
Likes (Received): 322

Quote:
Originally Posted by taikoo.city View Post
It depends on how you define HSR technology: the vehicles or the tracks, or both. You may be an EXPERT (and strong defender) on TGV technology having been working on this field for decades but you shouldn't be in the position of criticizing and attacking Shinkansen technology if you know nothing, or only a tiny fraction, of that technology and service philosophy. TGV is simply NOT for Britain because it's aimed for long-distance travel (and an alternative to flying) instead of a more metro-style service (and congestion relief) like the Shinkansen's been running since the late 60s. Britain is also more similar to Japan than any other European countries being a small island with relatively higher population density than the continent. Britain would also need more tunnels for HSR than the continent due to NIMBYs and developed areas along some of the main lines. You can call me Anti-TGV if you like but I'm not a fanboy or fangirl of ANY particular technology, and would prefer British technology if it managed to be successfully developed back in the APT era. It's a pity they eventually scrapped the whole project and sold everything to Italy (and not Hitachi).

That's precisely the point of your acusations that I'm negating ...


Never have I made a post (alegedly) badmouthing the shinkansen technological solutions ... and never have I made a post (alegedly) defending the SNCF/TGV technological solutions ... never ever.

In fact the british problem is only soluble by going the japanese way ... pour £££ in large doses where it's needed (namely in digging tunnels and re.creating express acesses to most large cities) ... and upgrade where it's easy to gain something from upgrading (namely reopening closed mainlines and upgrading the ones that never closed (most mainlines in the UK could easily acomodate tilting trains at up to 250km/h in those curvy tracks and at more elevated speeds in the long straights).




You should be pointing your fingers not at me but at the guys (or girls) here that simply WANT a "new" HS2 but insist that it mustn't have any tunnels , musn't connect to anywhwere , no track reopenings and most of all ... no infraestructure placed on the ground whatsoever.

__________________
"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça
sotavento no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 27th, 2009, 10:12 AM   #520
sotavento
Registered user
 
sotavento's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7,419
Likes (Received): 322

Lets go back a little bit on this discussion here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by london24/7 View Post
Am i missing something or do people actually think you can make routes that take railed trains and maglevs? no you cant!
JR MAGLEV system is not incompatible with a usage in a dual-trackage system.

Just compare "standard" JR HSR (Shinkansen) and JR MAGLEV tracks:





Under a certain speed JR MAGLEV runs on wheels ... the JR prototips use standard tires just like the Paris Metro Wheeled Trainsets ... they could as easily run on rails at low speeds.

Quote:
If you ran HSR into central london youd have to bore tunnels to avoid the congestion of the E/WCMLs like HS1,
ECML is paralleled by the 4 track MML(west) and not one , not two but 3 NR different tracks on the eastside.

It is not congestion (as in aditional trains) but capacity(as in longer trains) that is lacking in the ECML ... the WCML could as easily be treated in the same way.



12 car intercity express trains for the UK instead od HST2 ???

Considering that the usual train lenght is 25m that would mean that a 10 car HST2(3 if one counts IC225 as HST2) would need 250m long platforms (275m for a 11 car and 300m for a 12 car trainset) ...

Trackage has nothing to deal (directly) with a routes capacity.

Take the 5 car Glasgow-Edimburg "rail-bridge" (or even the many 3/4 car DMU intercity services in the UK that could increase in capacity just by adding moe cars to a train.

A Quote from the wikipedia about the WCML:
Quote:
Quote:
Modernisation by Network Rail

The WCML running alongside the M1 motorway at Watford Gap in Northamptonshire

A Virgin Pendolino and EWS Class 66 freight train on the WCML

By the dawn of the 1990s, it was clear that further modernisation was required. Initially, this took the form of the InterCity 250 project which would have seen the introduction of new rolling stock derived from that developed for the East Coast electrification introduced alongside a wholesale refurbishment of the WCML itself. But then the privatisation of BR intervened, which saw Virgin Trains win the franchise in 1996 for the running of long distance express services on the line. The bold modernisation plan unveiled by Virgin and the new infrastructure owner Railtrack would see the upgrade and renewal of the line to allow the use of tilting Pendolino trains with a maximum line speed of 225 km/h (140 mph), in place of the previous maximum of 177 km/h (110 mph). Railtrack estimated that this upgrade would cost £2bn, be ready by 2005, and cut journey times London to Birmingham to 1hr (currently[when?] 1hr 21mins) and 1hr 45mins London to Manchester.

However, Railtrack had not assessed the technical viability of moving block signalling prior to promising the speed increase to Virgin and the Government. No-one had attempted to implement moving block on a line as complex as the WCML anywhere in the world, and it soon became apparent to engineers that the technology was not mature enough to be used on the line. The bankruptcy of Railtrack in 2001 and its replacement by Network Rail following the Hatfield crash brought a reappraisal of the plans whilst the original cost of the upgrade soared.
....
ERTMS2 usage could and should be implemented in ECML/WCML as soon as possible ...along with it could be the long wished 140/156mph on current mainlines (and even the slow tracks should be upgraded to 125mph).

sidenote: the italian "directissima" has a 156mph speed limit and it's under a 3000vDC wich is harder to squeeze to such high speeds.

Grabing another quote (now from the UK transportation section here on SSC):
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaac Newell View Post
5 trains an hour to Birmingham, 3 trains an hour to Manchester, 2 to Liverpool, 1 to Glasgow. That's 11 intercity trains an hour rolling through Rugby. The London - Rugby section of the WCML is one of the busiest railways in the World.
Assuming that most "slow" traffic could be deviated tru Northampton that would mean that a short haul* intercity train passes every 10 minutes in the WCML + 1 train to glasgow

sidenote: By short haul I mean that it's a less than 200miles/320km trip ... 2h at 100mph(160km/h) , 1h30 at 125mph(200km/h) , 1h10/1h20 at 140mph (225km/h) or 1h at 200mph(320km/h) ... that's a 10 minutes saved with a 100% upgrade cost ... the need for a brand new HSR just isn't there in the first place.
sidenote2: this however doesn't mean that one shouldn't be built ... since most of the upgrading needed on WCML would indeed be a brand new track somewhere along the route.

Quote:
And you'd have to do the same for maglev unless you elevated it above the CMLs. But the only mature maglev tech is transrapid, JR maglev wont be ready for some years. Even in china they cant use transrapid within 50m of populated areas, i suspect this would be even more in the UK with stringent health and safety, considering this line goes right up through north london that would rule transrapid out, besides, transrapid at 300mph is really not worth it over 220mph HSR. Not to mention the issues of having an isolated transrapid track you cant run trains on and off.
Transrapid is a no go in terms of widespread usage ... any Y shaped maglev track system is deemed to remain in its own isolated route.

U shaped maglev tracks in the other hand ... can as easily be HSR+maglev on the same concrete tracks ...


I would go the extra mile to researsh into that ... for example forget any trackage south of Watford(WCML) and Stevenage (ECML) ... and staritng from there just think that if ANY new track is to be build heading to somewhere it could as easilly be a 100% U shaped bridge/tunel/viaduct/cutting carriyng a 200mph plus HSR ... adding to this setup the maglev linear induction plates could be as easily as adding in-cab/moving block/ERTMS2 int othe current tracks ...
__________________
"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça
sotavento no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
rail, railways

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:04 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium