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Old May 14th, 2009, 12:50 AM   #541
Manchester Planner
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Could I suggest that all the ramblings about high speed trains go into a (new?) high speed trains thread, rather than clogging up this more general thread about British railways?
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Old May 14th, 2009, 03:23 AM   #542
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manchester Planner View Post
Could I suggest that all the ramblings about high speed trains go into a (new?) high speed trains thread, rather than clogging up this more general thread about British railways?
There's already a thread on the same genre in the British Transport & Infrastructure section:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=59
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Old May 14th, 2009, 04:15 AM   #543
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Video of trains at Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch in North Wales.

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Old May 14th, 2009, 02:14 PM   #544
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image hosted on flickr
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Old May 14th, 2009, 10:16 PM   #545
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image hosted on flickr
That's classic! They even need 2 more poles to support the extra long sign~
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Old May 15th, 2009, 02:04 PM   #546
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It's great, I know!

Anyway - electrification of the Great Western Mainline to Wales and the Midlands Mainline is on the cards.

A compelling case for the first big electrification programme for 20 years will be presented on Friday by the company that runs Britain’s railways – a move that would cut rail costs and lead to faster, more reliable and cleaner journeys.

The Network Rail consultation will say electrification of much of the Great Western route from London to western England and Wales and of the Midland main line from London to Sheffield makes most sense. Neither project would need any government grant or subsidy.

Geoff Hoon, transport secretary, has welcomed the report, calling it a “valuable step”. The Department for Transport is due to decide later this year on a resumption of rail electrification.

“The government is committed to electrification because of the benefits it brings to rail passengers, through more reliable and comfortable electric trains and a reduction in the country’s carbon emissions and the cost of running the railway,” Mr Hoon said.

He is likely to come under pressure from train operators to decide fast in order to lift uncertainty over whether new electric or diesel trains should be ordered for routes.

The last big electrification project was on the London-Edinburgh east coast main line, authorised in 1984 and completed in 1991. Since privatisation in the mid-1990s, only further small sections of line have been electrified, usually to provide extra routes for electric trains round engineering work. Only 40 per cent of the network is electrified, a far lower proportion than in countries such as Germany and France.

Electric trains cost 33 per cent less per mile to maintain than diesel trains, the document says. They cost 45 per cent less in fuel, 18 per cent less to lease and produce less damage to track. Passengers should also enjoy shorter journeys thanks to electric trains’ superior acceleration.

While emissions vary between train types, carbon dioxide emissions per mile from electric trains can be less than half those for comparable diesels.

The cost of putting up electric wires on the Midland main line from Bedford to Nottingham and Sheffield, and on the Great Western route from Maidenhead to Bristol and Swansea is likely to be relatively low. The Midland route cost would probably be about £100m and the Great Western about £120m.

However, neither figure includes the cost of new electric trains, any new signalling required or alterations to bridges and tunnels. There are 90 structures on the Midland main line that would require alterations, while on the Great Western main line the main obstacle is the four-and-a-half-mile long Severn tunnel, which leaks heavily.

The east coast main line project cost £306m in 1984 prices, including new trains and signalling, although many observers believe savings on the overhead line equipment in that project have contributed to its unreliability since.

Apart from the Midland and Great Western routes, the document identifies some projects – including electrification of much of the inter-city cross-country network – whose benefits outweigh costs to the government by five or more times.

A government subsidy would be required, however, because many of the benefits would be non-financial ones such as a cleaner environment.


http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/20928314-4...44feabdc0.html

The best map I have found of the British rail network (includes the separate Irish network too) is this:

http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/...tish-isles.gif

It's a great map actually, showing gauges, type of electrification, etc.
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Old May 15th, 2009, 04:36 PM   #547
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Basically, phase 1 would be some short links, GOBLin, Bedford to Nottingham, Corby and Sheffield via Derby, Maidenhead to Oxford, Bristol via Bath and Swansea.

Phase 2 would be infill (Uckfield, for instance) and maybe some more mainlines, eg XC, Chiltern, Transpennine North and North East, West of England, Berks and Hants.

If all of phase 2 (which is recommended to have further study) is built then the whole intercity network is electrified, except North Wales beyond Chester, Cornwall and north of Central Scotland (which may be electrified anyway). I reckon that you'd lose Penzance, Aberdeen, North Wales and Inverness from the main intercity network if Plymouth, Sunderland and Chester are electrified - it would mean that Kings Cross, Paddington and Euston are completely electrified. If all the phase 2 lines are electrified then, AFAICS, Birmingham would be free from diesel trains almost completely - some (very few) freight trains, plus the odd Wrexham-London (Shrewsbury would have WCML Pendos). Plymouth is the big one, as it would require wires going a long way (Bristol and Reading, even though Exeter-Basingstoke might be electrified) and Dawlish will always be a problem.
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Old May 15th, 2009, 05:00 PM   #548
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See Network Rail's document here: http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%...rification.pdf
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Old May 15th, 2009, 05:21 PM   #549
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Quote:
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Cheers for the link - fascinating document!
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Old May 15th, 2009, 05:28 PM   #550
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Map showing the proposed electrification of parts of the Great Western and Midland Mainlines in England & Wales:



The short purple lines are sections of electrification in-fill on other lines. Further electrification proposals exist for Scotland.
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Old May 15th, 2009, 06:23 PM   #551
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What is pleasing and encouraging is just how many routes come out with a positive business case - literally dozens. Makes you wonder why they weren't done years ago...
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Old May 15th, 2009, 07:50 PM   #552
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I am completely astonished at how cheap that electrification is...

Even if the prices triple as we come to expect, thats still bloody cheap.

Its completely unbelivable how they havent been done previously. Its all because of the fragmentation from the messed up privatisation.
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Old May 16th, 2009, 08:16 AM   #553
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 33Hz View Post
This site used to be regular reading, but I gave it a miss for 2 months thanks to sotavento's [email protected] in almost every interesting thread. I come back and you are still writing utter off-topic drivel in this same thread. Just take yourself and your bl00dy annoying smilies away and stop wrecking the usefulness of this site!

I mean...



...just shows the true depth of your knowledge, "Mr Railway Engineer".
My knowledge about what ??? about the british rails ??? Or my questioning/doubting other peoples knowledge about what they are claiming as "being the truth"

What is offtopic when the topic is British Railways - Pics, Info, News, Views and one is merely discussing about news , projects and views of precisely the way things are or should,could,will be in BR ???


And about your last quote about my knowledge ... look ... this is one of your "new and innovative" high teck EMU's ...



then again ... you can be the one completely wrong since that picture is of year ... 1938 ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Republica View Post
I am completely astonished at how cheap that electrification is...

Even if the prices triple as we come to expect, thats still bloody cheap.

Its completely unbelivable how they havent been done previously. Its all because of the fragmentation from the messed up privatisation.
I'm completely astounished by your innocent astounishment about the simplicity and small cost of such major electrifications.

Wait ... weren't you just claiming:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Republica View Post
Yeah sotavento, can you please leave. You talk rubbish in the most bizarre style and end up arguing with whoever comes along.

Doesnt it cross you mind it might be your fault that that happens and not the other person?


why don't YOU leave instead ??

If your only contribution to this topic is to flamebait in my general direction you migh as well save one post count.

And no ... I don't even lose one breath to think why people stupidly assume that offensive position just to prove that I'm wrong ... specially when they are claiming pure and utter crap suck as TGV-fanboyism and other such nonsense.

And you seem to be an enormous specialist in flamebaiting since you manage to be completelly offtopic in ALL , EACH AND EVERY post you made directed at me.

I repeat myself here ... Thread: British Railways - Pics, Info, News, Views

Not flamebaiting ... go back to your beloved DLM where your recurrent kind of crappy remarks belong anyway.

Then again ... how nice to see that they intend to electrify the GWR and the MML.
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Last edited by sotavento; May 16th, 2009 at 09:47 AM.
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Old May 16th, 2009, 09:58 AM   #554
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
-
YOU are the one who should LEAVE! No matter what you are doing all you did is disrupting the peace and harmony of this thread, other threads regarding British HSR, the TGV-Shinkansen debate, AND the FORUM as a whole.

I'll be overjoyed if you eventually get suspended by moderators FOREVER!
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> MTR North Island Line Discussion Thread
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Old May 16th, 2009, 02:05 PM   #555
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disrupting the peace ??? as in being beaten up to pulp and crying for help disrupts the peace of those using the baseball bats with the nails kind of piece ???


a) I don't recall ever claiming that TGV was a good and bla bla bla or that shinkansen was a bad thingie or whatever

b) you even claim that you hate alsthom so the TGV sucks and that HS2 should be 3,4m wide so as to accomodate shinkansen ... and other such cunning remarks.


and what precisely does this have with your (and some others) recurrent flame-baiting in my general direction ???

So I should be "suspended by moderators FOREVER!" ... and that for what ??? for not putting up with your crappy provocations ???

Grow up will you ???

And by the way ... your belloved TGV beat the record wich belonged to this little piece of electric unit since 1903:





And I only came in here thinking that I would be drooling over Mancester Planner's lovely old steam pictures ... and maiby add some of my own ... but instead I'm faced with kids rants.
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Old May 16th, 2009, 02:20 PM   #556
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
And about your last quote about my knowledge ... look ... this is one of your "new and innovative" high teck EMU's ...
Precisely the point. This is a BR thread and you come back and post some pictures of an Italian EMU.

I come here because I want to talk about
  • HS2
  • Electricfication
  • IEP
  • Crossrail
  • Heathrow Hub
  • New rolling stock
  • etc

No one cares about you sorry views about whether TGV is better than Shinkansen that we hear ad infinitum. Keep it on topic.

And if you think that Italian EMU has any relation to today's high speed units, you need to go back to school and learn some electrical engineering my friend.


Quote:
I'm completely astounished by your innocent astounishment about the simplicity and small cost of such major electrifications.
He and I are astounded because their 2009 costs are roughly one third of the 1989 costs of the last big electrification done in the UK (CTRL not included). So either someone has come up with some amazing way to make the OHLE cheaper or they got their maths wrong.

Last edited by 33Hz; May 16th, 2009 at 02:57 PM.
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Old May 16th, 2009, 03:12 PM   #557
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 33Hz View Post
Precisely the point. This is a BR thread and you come back and post some pictures of an Italian EMU.

I come here because I want to talk about
  • HS2
  • Electricfication
  • IEP
  • Crossrail
  • Heathrow Hub
  • New rolling stock
  • etc
Don't feed the Troll.
I'm the same, though Crossrail has it's own thread, and I don't care at all about what trains run, provided they are reasonable - I don't really know, or care - I'm an infrastructure man.
Quote:
He and I are astounded because their 2009 costs are roughly one third of the 1989 costs of the last big electrification done in the UK (CTRL not included). So either someone has come up with some amazing way to make the OHLE cheaper or they got their maths wrong.
I'm also astounded. The thing is that most of the lines rely on the cheap cost, as their BCR is around the 2-3 area, and if the cost gets three times higher, then the BCR would be in the 0.7-1 area, and therefore the scheme would be non-viable.
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Old May 16th, 2009, 05:31 PM   #558
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 33Hz View Post
Precisely the point. This is a BR thread and you come back and post some pictures of an Italian EMU.

I come here because I want to talk about
  • HS2
  • Electricfication
  • IEP
  • Crossrail
  • Heathrow Hub
  • New rolling stock
  • etc

No one cares about you sorry views about whether TGV is better than Shinkansen that we hear ad infinitum. Keep it on topic.

And if you think that Italian EMU has any relation to today's high speed units, you need to go back to school and learn some electrical engineering my friend.




He and I are astounded because their 2009 costs are roughly one third of the 1989 costs of the last big electrification done in the UK (CTRL not included). So either someone has come up with some amazing way to make the OHLE cheaper or they got their maths wrong.
EACH AQND EVERY TIME THAT I ever Talked about either TGV and/or shinkansen was QUOTING what someone had previously posted about one or the other or even both.

So Stuffit about your wrongly assumed mighty sorry views on what not and something else.


The ETR200 is the sole and first predecessor of the current Virgin 390 pendolino ... coupled with the ATP and some other projects ... that says much about it being or not on topic here.

And if people recurrently assume the kind of attacking position that you (and some others here) usually use (and abuse) then theres no stopping the corrective responses.

Quote:
And if you think that Italian EMU has any relation to today's high speed units, you need to go back to school and learn some electrical engineering my friend.
No ... I just posted a picture of an old train wich usually grabbed the same speeds that the post-BR private companies managed to CAP/UNDERMINE it's 70 year younger grand-grand-son ...

all other implications about it being of a completely different and ancient technological era are solely on your side ... so if someone should go back to school it's you and not me ... start with psychology.


About any technological or construction downsizing/underpriced situation that migh have ocurred in the meantime since early eighties in the UK .. that is precisely why the rest of the world is astonished to see where you guys are(were?) heading in railway terms in the past 2 decades ... straight down.

I just give you a couple of numbers to compare:

Over here (portugal) we reconstructed some 2000km of railways and even installed EBICAB700 all over the majority of the network , the main lines are (almost completely) upgraded to 220km/h and fully electrified ... the next phase is to go the 300/350 km/h HSR way... the 600km basic network is suposed to cost 10/15M€ ... or roughly the same cost as the 100km HS1.

And it is plausible that it will really cost that amount to electrify ... same as with the 80's "top-and-tailing" TGV (due to the huge transformers needed) of the french your electrification techniques were very basic back then ... today the market has pretty cheap solutions to suplly so it's way cheaper.
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Old May 16th, 2009, 05:47 PM   #559
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Once again, go away. You arent contributing at all. Its all just literal diarrhoea.

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Old May 16th, 2009, 06:29 PM   #560
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Two thirds of this thread is sotavento rambling and occasionally ranting about stuff few people care about and which shouldn't be clogging up what is an informative (and should also be an enjoyable) thread on British railways ("Pics, Info, News, Views" as it says in the thread title). In-depth ramblings about HSR should go somewhere else. Please.

Anyway, sotavento, you say you enjoyed the photos of steam trains running here in Great Britain. Fine - here are some more:









I think it's great having steam running on the mainlines!

Last edited by Manchester Planner; May 16th, 2009 at 06:43 PM.
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