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Old July 23rd, 2009, 07:14 PM   #661
hkskyline
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UK to unveil plans to electrify two rail lines

LONDON, July 22 (Reuters) - Britain plans to electrify two railway lines in a move designed to reduce carbon dioxide emissions and speed up journeys, Prime Minister Gordon Brown said on Wednesday. "Tomorrow I will announce a major investment in train electrification on two important lines, investment that will secure the modernisation of much of our railway infrastructure, creating and protecting hundreds of jobs," Brown told reporters.

He gave no further details, but media reports said the line between London and south Wales would be upgraded.

The Guardian reported that the programme would involve installing hundreds of miles of electric cables as well as alterations to tunnels, bridges and stations.

Work would be spread over a decade to minimise disruption to services, it added. FirstGroup operates the main franchise for trains between London and Cardiff.

Only 40 percent of Britain's rail network is electrified, a figure that lags electrical coverage in many other European countries.
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Old July 25th, 2009, 06:21 AM   #662
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So I take it the Great Western Main Line will be electrified?

Did the privatization of Britain's railways under that ******* Major have something to do with Britain's crummy electrification rates compared to other Western European countries?
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Old July 25th, 2009, 04:23 PM   #663
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So I take it the Great Western Main Line will be electrified?

Did the privatization of Britain's railways under that ******* Major have something to do with Britain's crummy electrification rates compared to other Western European countries?
It can't be said for certain but yes, its most likely that privatisation did, seeing as since privatisation and the underinvestment that preceded it (why invest in something that the private sector will soon own they thought) meant only 8 miles has been electrified since 1995 i think.

Since 2000 the railways have received big investment once it was realised private companies were incapable of maintaining a safe infrastructure, so all the infrastructure has been effectively nationalised again.
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Old July 25th, 2009, 09:08 PM   #664
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In fact most of this should have been done in the 60s. I wouldn't count my chickens on this either, as I'm sure when the Tories get in this will be on the "review" list.

Anyway, the Guardian report was right and both the London - South Wales and Manchester - Liverpool will be electrified (assuming the project reaches conclusion). See: Great Western rail electrification package approved | Transport Briefing

The full DfT report is here: http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/ra...rification.pdf

What is interesting is that many of the routes that were shown to have a positive business case by Network Rail in May are not even on the agenda for further review in this document. That seems a shame - if they are going to create factory trains then give them some more work to do! Network Rail should be free to go to the markets (when they recover) and raise the cash themselves if the government won't or can't provide it.

The other consideration is the IEP bi-mode, which seems to feature prominently in the plans here, is only capable of 2MW when running on diesel. That's not enough for a train that has 10 cars and needs to do at least 110mph when it leaves the wires at Newbury. My bet is they will either have to extend the wires to Exeter or there will still be all-diesel trains running into Paddington.
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Old July 26th, 2009, 12:34 AM   #665
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 33Hz View Post
In fact most of this should have been done in the 60s. I wouldn't count my chickens on this either, as I'm sure when the Tories get in this will be on the "review" list.

Anyway, the Guardian report was right and both the London - South Wales and Manchester - Liverpool will be electrified (assuming the project reaches conclusion). See: Great Western rail electrification package approved | Transport Briefing

The full DfT report is here: http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/ra...rification.pdf

What is interesting is that many of the routes that were shown to have a positive business case by Network Rail in May are not even on the agenda for further review in this document. That seems a shame - if they are going to create factory trains then give them some more work to do! Network Rail should be free to go to the markets (when they recover) and raise the cash themselves if the government won't or can't provide it.

The other consideration is the IEP bi-mode, which seems to feature prominently in the plans here, is only capable of 2MW when running on diesel. That's not enough for a train that has 10 cars and needs to do at least 110mph when it leaves the wires at Newbury. My bet is they will either have to extend the wires to Exeter or there will still be all-diesel trains running into Paddington.
Your 100% correct that most of this should have happen 50 or so years ago but it seems to be one of these quick little knee jerk reactions which governments seem to do every now and then. Aka as one news paper put it as the minimum that is required. Its the same with alot of things.

I'd argue that Labour should go because they didn't do this the second they came into power and the Tories shouldn't be in power if they try and pull it. I heard from the minster that the Manchester-Liverpool section is meant to start 'right away' but what 'right away' normally means is wait a year.
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Old July 26th, 2009, 01:23 AM   #666
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What will happen to all the DMUs that run on that line...I assume the HSTs will have gone by then, but the 166s and others are quite new-ish...
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Old July 26th, 2009, 02:20 AM   #667
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They'll probably be used for increased service on other routes that haven't been electrified. That or send them to other countries, like the ones that went to Ireland.
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Old July 26th, 2009, 05:12 PM   #668
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The DMUs are scheduled to be moved to other parts of the Great Western network (Cardiff - Portsmouth or Devon and Cornwall) where they have older stock today.
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Old July 28th, 2009, 12:30 AM   #669
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this is great finally electrifcation is happening to the great western Main line yay about time since the great western main line is already built for high speed travel it makes more sense to be electrified.

also i hope that the midland mainline will be electrified as well but i am glad the government is going ahead for more electrification but someone is right this should have been done since fifty years ago.
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Old July 28th, 2009, 02:30 AM   #670
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poshbakerloo View Post
What will happen to all the DMUs that run on that line...I assume the HSTs will have gone by then, but the 166s and others are quite new-ish...
Likely be sent to sit in a cold field for 73 years. In which time many train companies ask to lease them out but some muppet in government will be like 'ooh no, we can't do that' and there won't be a reason other than 'I've run out of oven chips, I must pop to Iceland!'
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Old July 28th, 2009, 06:10 AM   #671
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Likely be sent to sit in a cold field for 73 years. In which time many train companies ask to lease them out but some muppet in government will be like 'ooh no, we can't do that' and there won't be a reason other than 'I've run out of oven chips, I must pop to Iceland!'


Quite possibly the funniest line I've read on any thread!

Isn't the plan to cascade the 166s into the West Country to replace the less 'glamorous' DMUs?

These in turn will be sent up North, where civil servants believe the people are so naive they'll think they're being done a favour. Mind you, as they still use Pacers up North, perhaps they are being done a favour...
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Old July 29th, 2009, 09:26 PM   #672
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So thats what happens when Americans design your train!

American trains are generally much less aesthetically pleasing than European ones but still, that is not normal even on American rails.

Hulking massive locomotives don't have to be ugly, Look at the GE Dash 9, personally I think it's pretty good looking.



Not every Euro train is a walk in the part either, as much as I like vossloh's new euro 3 and 4000 trains they surely botched something horribly with this one.

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Old July 30th, 2009, 01:23 AM   #673
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[QUOTE=Jay;40490242]American trains are generally much less aesthetically pleasing than European ones but still, that is not normal even on American rails.

Hulking massive locomotives don't have to be ugly, Look at the GE Dash 9, personally I think it's pretty good looking.

I agree. And the European gauge locomotices that North America supplied to France just after WWII, along with those in use in the Balkans and Turkey, are also OK to look at.

So one wonders, what went wrong, first of all with the class 59s/66s, and now the new class 70?


Not every Euro train is a walk in the part either, as much as I like vossloh's new euro 3 and 4000 trains they surely botched something horribly with this one.


Agreed again. Someone got a bit too arty farty with that one. But generally the Europeans get it right. The electric locomotives from Bombardier are totally spot-on beauties.

Didn't someone at GE think to look at those and get some inspiration?
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Old July 30th, 2009, 02:24 AM   #674
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The DMUs are scheduled to be moved to other parts of the Great Western network (Cardiff - Portsmouth or Devon and Cornwall) where they have older stock today.
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Isn't the plan to cascade the 166s into the West Country to replace the less 'glamorous' DMUs?
Bit of an echo in here - I posted that 3 posts above.

Quote:
Mind you, as they still use Pacers up North, perhaps they are being done a favour...
They also have Pacers out west. Twice I've had to endure early morning journeys of nearly 4 hours on the things to get to Cornwall. The day a 166 turns up for that will be a good day indeed.
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Old July 30th, 2009, 02:34 AM   #675
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Bit of an echo in here - I posted that 3 posts above.
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I wasn't copying your homework, just re-spouting what I'd read elsewhere.


They also have Pacers out west. Twice I've had to endure early morning journeys of nearly 4 hours on the things to get to Cornwall. The day a 166 turns up for that will be a good day indeed.


I feel for you. I caught a Pacer once many years ago when I was up North, and I thought I was on some kind of fairground park train. All that was missing was the music.

How have they stayed in service for so long?
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Old July 31st, 2009, 08:39 AM   #676
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The problem with Pacers is that they are not some endangered class nearing extinction, but actually a VERY common train, especially in the north of England. Nearly all stopping services are run by pacers. Rather annoyingly, and despite all the rail upgrades, Pacers will probably remain with us for some time.
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Old July 31st, 2009, 11:36 AM   #677
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You mean they were built too well. Isn't that ironic. Of all the trains one might wish to be crap, the Pacer turns out to be reliable.

Mind you, Britain is not the only country which bought two-axle funfair trains. There's quite a few bouncing around Hungary, for example.
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Old July 31st, 2009, 12:51 PM   #678
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The problem with Pacers is that they are not some endangered class nearing extinction, but actually a VERY common train, especially in the north of England. Nearly all stopping services are run by pacers. Rather annoyingly, and despite all the rail upgrades, Pacers will probably remain with us for some time.
That is just blatantly not true. There are less Pacers than Sprinters to start with.

They will not be with us too much longer - they can't be made to meet new disability regulations so will be withdrawn within six years.

Last edited by Mostly Lurking; July 31st, 2009 at 01:03 PM.
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Old July 31st, 2009, 12:58 PM   #679
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Thanks heavens for disability regulations.

Is there any chance disability regulations can be made to prevent train operators from fitting out carriages with 2+3 seating?
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Old August 3rd, 2009, 08:28 AM   #680
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Originally Posted by Accura4Matalan View Post
The problem with Pacers is that they are not some endangered class nearing extinction, but actually a VERY common train, especially in the north of England. Nearly all stopping services are run by pacers. Rather annoyingly, and despite all the rail upgrades, Pacers will probably remain with us for some time.
Love them or hate them - the Pacer has saved many a small rural line from closure. The Pacer was based on a bus body, has a single axle drive, and no bogies - just two axles per car. They're cheap to maintain and to run. Oh, and there's practically no suspension, so just hope the lines are well maintained, because you feel every bump and jolt.

You should ride them on the Oldham Loop Line before it closes for conversion to Metrolink. The uphill grade out of Manchester Victoria - the steepest in Greater Manchester - really pushes the Pacer to it's limits - both the engine and the rail adhesion on two axles. Then there's the nice sharp curve between Hollinwood and Werneth, again the squeal as the fixed axles make the turn is wonderful. In the twin tunnels, you're treated to the loud hum of the engines through the non-existent carriage insulation. Then take the Pacer for a return trip to Victoria. Try to get one of the express trains out of Oldham Mumps, not having to stop at the stations, allows the train to really pick up speed - on the down hill, the trains picks up a lot of speed and bumps, clatters and bounces over the non-welded track. Sometimes you think it's going to bounce off the track completely. Thank goodness for signal checks and the approach signals into Victoria to the buffer stop platform. Oh yeah, the line is still signalled using semaphores - which I really like.

Last edited by lightrail; August 3rd, 2009 at 08:36 AM.
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