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Old April 17th, 2014, 03:30 PM   #1781
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Sure, 25kV AC is better overall, however, the OP said about how electrification could be managed on the route. If you cannot string wires at that point, then you'd have to third rail it if you wanted to electrify it. Duel voltage is an option, but as you say, problematic. I'd leave it as diesel as the loading gauge is clearly unsuitable for electrification and there probably isn't the traffic to demand it either, but if it were to be done, without destroying historical viaducts like those pictured, I can only think of third rail being an option.

Thoughts?
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Old April 17th, 2014, 03:40 PM   #1782
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
Sure, 25kV AC is better overall, however, the OP said about how electrification could be managed on the route. If you cannot string wires at that point, then you'd have to third rail it if you wanted to electrify it. Duel voltage is an option, but as you say, problematic. I'd leave it as diesel as the loading gauge is clearly unsuitable for electrification and there probably isn't the traffic to demand it either, but if it were to be done, without destroying historical viaducts like those pictured, I can only think of third rail being an option.

Thoughts?
Looking at the Conway viaduct which is disguised as a castle it looks like there's sufficient headway for OHLE, it may be in the form of an electrified overhead rail as on Thameslink at St Pancras. The archway will probably see track singled just through the arch just as was done with the Kent 1066 electrification through the usually narrow tunnels. The North Wales councils want electrification and I'd guess it will be a CP7 task
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Old April 17th, 2014, 03:48 PM   #1783
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I totally agree that there is no problem for overhead electrification there. Here is the satellite map link to Conwy station - look at layout.

As for me, I don't like 3rd rail, because of its dangerous look - one fall and your hand is burnt
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Old April 17th, 2014, 03:52 PM   #1784
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manchester77 View Post
Looking at the Conway viaduct which is disguised as a castle it looks like there's sufficient headway for OHLE, it may be in the form of an electrified overhead rail as on Thameslink at St Pancras. The archway will probably see track singled just through the arch just as was done with the Kent 1066 electrification through the usually narrow tunnels. The North Wales councils want electrification and I'd guess it will be a CP7 task
Okay, fair enough. I didn't think about the option of decreasing the tracks to single through the arch.

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Originally Posted by dimlys1994 View Post
I totally agree that there is no problem for overhead electrification there. Here is the satellite map link to Conwy station - look at layout.

As for me, I don't like 3rd rail, because of its dangerous look - one fall and your hand is burnt
I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with third rail at all. It's a tried and tested technology and in use in many different parts of the world. Plenty of people die from exposure to overhead wires too, it's not something restricted just to third rail systems.
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Old April 17th, 2014, 07:49 PM   #1785
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Official from Network Rail:

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http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co...ment-2060.aspx

Footbridge to replace West Coast main line level crossing as part of route-wide safety commitment
Tuesday 15 Apr 2014





A footbridge is to replace a footpath level crossing on a busy section of the West Coast main line where trains travel in excess of 100mph.

Brock level crossing, near Bilsborrow in Lancashire, is the first of 200 crossings that Network Rail is aiming to close before April 2019 on the London North Western (LNW) route which runs from London Euston, through the West Midlands and north west of England, to the Scottish border.

The new bridge will provide a safe way to cross the railway and result in the permanent closure of the level crossing, reducing risk for the many people who use the existing route.

The new footbridge was formally opened by Councillor Bill Collinson and Jen Olivine of Myerscough and Bilsborrow Parish Council, on Wednesday 16 April.

Ian Joslin, area director for Network Rail, said: “This new footbridge is a positive first step as part of our commitment to close 200 level crossings across the route by 2019.

“The West Coast main line is one of the busiest railways in Europe and trains travel through this area at very high speeds. With safety being at the heart of everything we do as an industry, closing this level crossing is an obvious decision and the new bridge will provide a much safer route across the railway.

“We are in the process of identifying other level crossings to close and will continue to liaise with local authorities, landowners and interested parties up and down the route to continue to make the railway a safer place.”

Jen Olivine, chair of Myerscough and Bilsborrow Parish Council, said: “At long last there is a safe crossing over the railway in Bilsborrow for those walking the footpaths that lead up to Brock Bottoms, providing a gateway to the Forest of Bowland.

“Our thanks go to Network Rail and its contractors, Murphy, which have delivered beyond what we could have expected and with such care and consideration.”

Targeting the closure of 200 level crossings on LNW by April 2019 is part of Network Rail’s national programme to invest £100m over the next five years to close 500 level crossings and reduce they pose to the network by a further 25%. This will build on the £130m invested by Network Rail since 2010 which has helped to close almost 800 level crossings across Britain.
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Old April 17th, 2014, 08:06 PM   #1786
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
Okay, fair enough. I didn't think about the option of decreasing the tracks to single through the arch.

I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with third rail at all. It's a tried and tested technology and in use in many different parts of the world. Plenty of people die from exposure to overhead wires too, it's not something restricted just to third rail systems.
It's been used before as I said for the Kent Coast electrification where tunnels had been made thicker meaning clearance for two tracks was too tight for modern stock and so track runs in the centre of the tunnel.

The main issue we have with third rail on the South London commuter network is that it is a lot less efficient than 25kV OHLE is. When the mark I derived EMUs were withdrawn at the turn of the century the power supply on the entire southern third rail network had to be completely upgraded for them to be used to their full capabilities. When the 395s were introduced onto the Kent classic lines many more substations had to be built so that the 395s could run. This is because it's at direct current which has to be roughly maintained all the time whereas AC it ranges more.
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Old April 17th, 2014, 08:36 PM   #1787
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Since that viaduct in Conwy is just a viaduct it wouldn't make much sense to single some 10 meters of tracks. Couldn't NR in such cases simply leave a gap in the overhead wires? I know that in my country up until some years ago there was such a place where the commuter EMUs had to lower their pantographs and travel on inertia (video).

Though I possibly remember a case when the driver forgot to lower the pantograph and destroyed it...
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Old April 17th, 2014, 08:43 PM   #1788
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Were talking about this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Co...on_in_2008.jpg at Conway station not the bridge which looks like it could easily take wires as seen here: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7033/6...0a38fa84_z.jpg
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Old April 17th, 2014, 09:01 PM   #1789
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I know what we are talking about.

Sadly just like you I couldn't find a word to describe the object. So I used "viaduct" which I saw used a few posts above. But if you prefer I will use "this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Co...on_in_2008.jpg at Conway station" from now on
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Old April 17th, 2014, 09:20 PM   #1790
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Why just not call it a medieval defensive wall?
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Old April 17th, 2014, 09:21 PM   #1791
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I will simply use a picture... I just want to say that this result would be stupid:
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Old April 17th, 2014, 09:34 PM   #1792
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I was thinking more gauntlet track than full on single track. I also don't have confidence in a gap in the OHLE since it would be unique on the entire network and considering singling for electrification has been done before I don't see the issue here, surely the shorter the single tracked section the better anyway.
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Old April 17th, 2014, 09:58 PM   #1793
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That's just stupid.
Lowering track isn't cheap, but possible, it have been done so many times in Ukraine.
Also, places that should be passed with lowered pantograph as everyday operational practice aren't really common, but they do exist over the world, but that would require platform relocation, even if minor one.
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Last edited by XAN_; April 17th, 2014 at 10:06 PM.
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Old April 17th, 2014, 10:23 PM   #1794
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manchester77 View Post
It's been used before as I said for the Kent Coast electrification where tunnels had been made thicker meaning clearance for two tracks was too tight for modern stock and so track runs in the centre of the tunnel.

The main issue we have with third rail on the South London commuter network is that it is a lot less efficient than 25kV OHLE is. When the mark I derived EMUs were withdrawn at the turn of the century the power supply on the entire southern third rail network had to be completely upgraded for them to be used to their full capabilities. When the 395s were introduced onto the Kent classic lines many more substations had to be built so that the 395s could run. This is because it's at direct current which has to be roughly maintained all the time whereas AC it ranges more.
I was replying to Dimlys and his statement regarding the safety of third rail. We know that DC current is less efficient for longer distances, hence why in many countries it is kept for metro systems only with a few exceptions (Japan being one notable one).
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Old April 18th, 2014, 01:17 AM   #1795
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I really hope that picture is not real.
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Old April 23rd, 2014, 09:59 AM   #1796
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This week, UK PM David Cameron and Chansellor George Osborne announced £36bn spending on infrastructure projects. Here is the list of rail projects, announced by Tresuary:

Projects and programmes projected to start in 2014 - 15:
  • Edinburgh Glasgow Improvement Programme (Initial Phase Key Output 1) - Scotland
  • European Rail Traffic Management System Infrastructure - England
  • Gravesend - Gillingham 12 car - South East
  • New Ilkeston station - East Midlands
  • Midland Main Line Capacity (Kettering - Corby) - East Midlands
  • New Newcourt station - South West
  • New Norton Bridge on West Coast Rail Line- West Midlands
  • Chiltern Main Line Platform Lengthening - South East
  • New Pye Corner station - Wales
  • Rolling Programme of Electrification - Scotland
  • Tram Train Pilot - Yorkshire & the Humber
Projects and programmes projected to complete in 2014 - 15:
  • Balcombe to Copyhold Bi-directional Signalling Upgrade - South East
  • Capacity Relief to the East Coast Main Line (GN/GE Joint Line) - UK
  • Chiltern Main Line Platform Lengthening - South East
  • Gravesend Train Lengthening - South East
  • Guildford via Cobham upgrade - South East
  • Hampton Court Branch upgrade- South East
  • New Ilkeston station - East Midlands
  • Kingston Loop and Shepperton Branch upgrade- South East
  • Manchester Airport station renovation - North West
  • Newcastle Central station renovation - North East
  • New Newcourt station- South West
  • North Doncaster Chord - Yorkshire & the Humber
  • Phase 3A: North Wembley - Whitmore - South East
  • New Pye Corner station - Wales
  • Raynes Park to Dorking - South East
  • Redditch Branch Enhancement - West Midlands
  • Route 3 - Power Supply Enhancements - South East
  • Rutherglen and Coatbridge (R&C) Electrification - Scotland
  • Scottish Electrification - 2013 Advance Route Clearance Programme (Other Routes) - Scotland
  • Swindon - Kemble Duelling - South West

Last edited by dimlys1994; April 23rd, 2014 at 04:16 PM.
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Old April 23rd, 2014, 11:30 AM   #1797
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Its just the ECML station at Newcastle Central that's being renovated.
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Old April 23rd, 2014, 01:12 PM   #1798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dimlys1994 View Post
This week, UK PM David Cameron and Chansellor George Osborne announced £36bn spending on infrastructure projects. Here is the list of rail project, [URL="https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_
[*][B]Newcastle Central Metro station renovation - North East[/B]
[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR][/LIST]
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Its just the ECML station at Newcastle Central that's being renovated.

Yes, as Fatfield says, it is not the Underground Metro Station at Central Station that is being renovated, it is the Main Line Station (Central Station itself) that is currently being renovated. See this thread here for details . .

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1600715

As part of NEXUS' plans for the 'Tyne and Wear Metro', Central Station Metro will be re-furbished (in the same style as 'Haymarket Metro') but not for some time yet.
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Old April 23rd, 2014, 02:18 PM   #1799
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Yes, as Fatfield says, it is not the Underground Metro Station at Central Station that is being renovated, it is the Main Line Station (Central Station itself) that is currently being renovated
Ah, thanks!
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Old April 23rd, 2014, 09:54 PM   #1800
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Update on new East West Rail Link between London Marylebone, Aylesbury, Oxford, Milton Keynes and Bedford - vegetation clearance of tracks between Aylesbury and Claydon Junction. Taken from here:











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