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Old September 6th, 2014, 04:41 PM   #1921
BriedisUnIzlietne
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That 3+2 seating really does look narrow... But I came up with an idea! When I was little, there was a minibus to my village with one seat that folded in the aisle. Why not* fit the current trains with more comfortable 2+2 seating and with folding seats in the aisle! You'd have wider seats but unchanged seat count!

*Well... safety reasons obviously. And the fact that no one will be able to pass through the train as the aisle will be full of people seated. And there will no longer be space for standees while the people seated will enjoy only a bit more comfort.

The British loading gauge really is a pain in the... elbows. In my country we have 3+3 seats and an aisle wide enough for two people to pass. Sadly, no manufacturer makes as wide trains anymore - all new trains in the region have only 3+2 seats...
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Old September 6th, 2014, 05:01 PM   #1922
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BriedisUnIzlietne View Post
That 3+2 seating really does look narrow... But I came up with an idea! When I was little, there was a minibus to my village with one seat that folded in the aisle. Why not* fit the current trains with more comfortable 2+2 seating and with folding seats in the aisle! You'd have wider seats but unchanged seat count!

*Well... safety reasons obviously. And the fact that no one will be able to pass through the train as the aisle will be full of people seated. And there will no longer be space for standees while the people seated will enjoy only a bit more comfort.

The British loading gauge really is a pain in the... elbows. In my country we have 3+3 seats and an aisle wide enough for two people to pass. Sadly, no manufacturer makes as wide trains anymore - all new trains in the region have only 3+2 seats...
3+3?1 Bloody hell, are the seats like full sized too not slimmed down like we do over here to get 3+2? 3+2 in the UK is counter productive because of our loading gauge, the middle seat in 3+2 formations is used as a last resort by passengers because of how squished in you are.

Most inner suburban trains in the UK now seem to be seeing that 2+2 on busy lines is the way to because it provides more capacity for standees. SWT refurbished their 455s with 2+2 seating and the new Thameslink 700s will have 2+2 with lots of standing room. Like you say though, loading gauge is a right pain in the arse! The closest we've got to continental style double deckers is a southern railway (the old company not the current TOC!) designed train the 4DD. It was more dual leveled rather than a traditional double decker and the upper deck was rather cramped. I think its the reason why trains around London are all pretty much 8/10/12 cars long - because DD trains aren't possible.

Does your country have like 10/12 car trains or are they not needed because the same capacity is provided by a 6 car set for example?
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Old September 6th, 2014, 05:45 PM   #1923
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1520 mm countries can have trains as wide as 3750 mm (on most electrified mainlines*), so 3+2 are totally fine, and 3+3 may feel a bit cramped, but still decent.


*and 3400 mm wide train should be acceptable anywhere.
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Old September 6th, 2014, 06:00 PM   #1924
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Of course, then there's the whole issue of the Shinkansen E1 and E4 MAX series and the 3+3 seats that they cram into 1435 gauge.
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Old September 6th, 2014, 06:08 PM   #1925
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BriedisUnIzlietne View Post
The British loading gauge really is a pain in the... elbows. In my country we have 3+3 seats and an aisle wide enough for two people to pass. Sadly, no manufacturer makes as wide trains anymore - all new trains in the region have only 3+2 seats...
KVSZ do, but they are optimized for high platforms (1100-1300 mm).
Stadler did it for Moscow Aeroexpress, but, as I understand, it's a custom project, thus it's more expensive. nevermind, they also did it for Finland and Belarus, thus it's off-the-shelf model now.
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Old September 6th, 2014, 06:14 PM   #1926
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Originally Posted by 00Zy99 View Post
Of course, then there's the whole issue of the Shinkansen E1 and E4 MAX series and the 3+3 seats that they cram into 1435 gauge.
One doesn't cram seats into track gauge, one crams them into loading gauge
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Old September 6th, 2014, 06:51 PM   #1927
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3+3?1 Bloody hell, are the seats like full sized too not slimmed down like we do over here to get 3+2? 3+2 in the UK is counter productive because of our loading gauge, the middle seat in 3+2 formations is used as a last resort by passengers because of how squished in you are.
As XAN said - it's a bit cramped but fine. The seats are 45 cm wide which is fine for people that are not overweight (which we currently don't have many). But, as in the UK, people choose the middle seats only when all other are taken. On Portsmouth-London distance services we use 2+2 seating.
Quote:
Most inner suburban trains in the UK now seem to be seeing that 2+2 on busy lines is the way to because it provides more capacity for standees. SWT refurbished their 455s with 2+2 seating and the new Thameslink 700s will have 2+2 with lots of standing room. Like you say though, loading gauge is a right pain in the arse! The closest we've got to continental style double deckers is a southern railway (the old company not the current TOC!) designed train the 4DD. It was more dual leveled rather than a traditional double decker and the upper deck was rather cramped. I think its the reason why trains around London are all pretty much 8/10/12 cars long - because DD trains aren't possible.
Why aren't DD trains possible? It would seem comparably cheap to make the loading gauge higher.

It's actually fascinating how one little choice somebody made about 150 years ago can have such an impact on modern UK - the choice of 1435mm gauge over Brunel's gauge. It's like if nowadays somebody would want to unify the railway standards and demand the conversion of all high speed rail lines to conventional lines because, although HSR is more advanced, conventional lines dominate the network so unification will be cheaper...
Quote:
Does your country have like 10/12 car trains or are they not needed because the same capacity is provided by a 6 car set for example?
There were times (late 1980ies) when we had full 10-car trains every 5 minutes, but, sadly, passenger amounts have dropped 7 times since then... I'm happy that passenger numbers are growing quite fast in the UK
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Old September 6th, 2014, 06:55 PM   #1928
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XAN_ View Post
KVSZ do, but they are optimized for high platforms (1100-1300 mm).
Stadler did it for Moscow Aeroexpress, but, as I understand, it's a custom project, thus it's more expensive. nevermind, they also did it for Finland and Belarus, thus it's off-the-shelf model now.
Yes, I meant low floor trains. But Belarus, Finland, Aeroexpress all have 3+2 or 2+2 seats. They don't make 'em wide enough for 3+3
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Old September 6th, 2014, 07:19 PM   #1929
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Originally Posted by BriedisUnIzlietne View Post
As XAN said - it's a bit cramped but fine. The seats are 45 cm wide which is fine for people that are not overweight (which we currently don't have many). But, as in the UK, people choose the middle seats only when all other are taken. On Portsmouth-London distance services we use 2+2 seating.
Yeah 444s are used on the fast services, although 450s can be subbed in. It's a pity a further 15 444s weren't ordered to fill the gap of the 442s leaving and to account for growth. Ah well.

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Why aren't DD trains possible? It would seem comparably cheap to make the loading gauge higher.
Many, many reasons. Low, historic bridgs which would need rebuilding; the fact that we use high platforms which aren't ideal for DD trains by the looks of things; Overhead Line Equipment would need altering which costs ##; southern region power supply would need massively upgrading.

Quote:
It's actually fascinating how one little choice somebody made about 150 years ago can have such an impact on modern UK - the choice of 1435mm gauge over Brunel's gauge. It's like if nowadays somebody would want to unify the railway standards and demand the conversion of all high speed rail lines to conventional lines because, although HSR is more advanced, conventional lines dominate the network so unification will be cheaper...
The ex- GWR lines are very modern though, Brunel built them basically to a HS alinement with long sweeping curves and the fact that the lines are mostly former broad gauge means that wider trains have been built - the 165s and 166s are a bit wider and longer than traditional stock to take advantage of the wider gauge. Doesn't make them unusable elsewhere though network rail intend them to be used in the South west post Thames valley electrification.

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There were times (late 1980ies) when we had full 10-car trains every 5 minutes, but, sadly, passenger amounts have dropped 7 times since then... I'm happy that passenger numbers are growing quite fast in the UK
Wow that's impressive, Thameslink will have 24 8/12 car trains per hour post 2018 and Crossrail will have 24 9 car (same length as a 10 car Thameslink train) trains per hour for comparison.
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Old September 6th, 2014, 07:35 PM   #1930
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Wow that's impressive, Thameslink will have 24 8/12 car trains per hour post 2018 and Crossrail will have 24 9 car (same length as a 10 car Thameslink train) trains per hour for comparison.
Oh.. I was a bit wrong It would be have been more correct to say "up to 5 minutes" because there was not a constant interval - some trains had much longer intervals. So the most crowded line had only between 5 and 9 8/10-car trains per hour. Which means that at most the trains carried only 28400 people in one direction per hour... London definitely does more. But, then again - London is three times denser and has 10 times the population
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Old September 6th, 2014, 07:59 PM   #1931
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http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/trai...09/09/advanced
Path in the system for 319362 and 363 to transfer from Wolverton to Allerton allowing northern to begin training and testing.
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Old September 6th, 2014, 08:01 PM   #1932
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Oh.. I was a bit wrong It would be have been more correct to say "up to 5 minutes" because there was not a constant interval - some trains had much longer intervals. So the most crowded line had only between 5 and 9 8/10-car trains per hour. Which means that at most the trains carried only 28400 people in one direction per hour... London definitely does more. But, then again - London is three times denser and has 10 times the population
London also has a far denser network of rail lines in South London which operate at 8/10/12 cars in length.
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Old September 8th, 2014, 07:37 PM   #1933
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. I think its the reason why trains around London are all pretty much 8/10/12 cars long - because DD trains aren't possible.
Actually 8/10/12 cars isn't that long. Using 12 (or even longer) DD trains is not uncommon on the continent.

So trains in the UK are still both length, width and height constrained... I hope that at least crossrail is being built to a wider gauge. (and with 400m long platforms).
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Old September 8th, 2014, 07:54 PM   #1934
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Actually 8/10/12 cars isn't that long. Using 12 (or even longer) DD trains is not uncommon on the continent.

So trains in the UK are still both length, width and height constrained... I hope that at least crossrail is being built to a wider gauge. (and with 400m long platforms).
What a standard southern region 12 car train will be 240m long which is longer than many of our intercity trains (a 2+9 HST will be ~235m including power cars).

It'd be pointless building Crossrail with the same length of platforms which HS2 will have! Crossrail is being built with 200m long platforms fitted out with a further 40m there but not fitted out for future proofing. 20 coach trains aren't feasible anywhere on the standard network, remember Crossrail feeds into the GWML relief lines and GEML slows which cannot support such trains.

It seems with longer trains we're forgetting the southerns philosophy of not having fixed formation units. There's a reason why we never saw 12LAV trains, it was because Southern saw that if there's a fault in that train you can't make it up with a spare unit. Until Thameslink, all southern region stock was formed with multiples of trains. So Thameslink would be run with 4-4-4 units. I do worry we'll see unit availability drop as a result of the loss of this flexibility when the 345s and 700s are introduced. It's worth noting SWTs latest EMU order fits the southern philosophy despite the fact the 30 5 car trains will spend most of their time in 10 car sets,
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Old September 10th, 2014, 12:50 AM   #1935
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What a standard southern region 12 car train will be 240m long which is longer than many of our intercity trains (a 2+9 HST will be ~235m including power cars).
Adding to that the cars also shorter than usually on the continent, 20m as opposed to 25-27m. 240m would normally be 9 cars.
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Old September 10th, 2014, 12:57 AM   #1936
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Adding to that the cars also shorter than usually on the continent, 20m as opposed to 25-27m. 240m would normally be 9 cars.
Indeed, none of the southern region (bar a few main routes) is cleared for C3 gauge stock (mark III coaches - 23m long trains) with standard length being that based around the mark I length of 20m. Most of the UK is based around the 20m coach design with 23m only really taking off in the 70s with the introduction of the HST and the mark IIIs. Trains longer than the 23m mark are the pendolinos which have coach lengths of 24/5m I believe and the IEP trains which are being built will have 26m long coaches which will require clearance works.
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Old September 11th, 2014, 02:34 PM   #1937
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What a standard southern region 12 car train will be 240m long which is longer than many of our intercity trains (a 2+9 HST will be ~235m including power cars).
That isn't particularly long. The standard length for long distance trains (used when designing stations) on the continent is 400m.

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It'd be pointless building Crossrail with the same length of platforms which HS2 will have! Crossrail is being built with 200m long platforms fitted out with a further 40m there but not fitted out for future proofing. 20 coach trains aren't feasible anywhere on the standard network, remember Crossrail feeds into the GWML relief lines and GEML slows which cannot support such trains.
But if you plan all new infrastructure so that it can take longer and higher trains, you will eventually have upgraded the whole line, and then can expand services by running higher capacity trains.
I would imaging that once crossrail is saturated that rebuilding most of the bridges on the lines feeding in to it to a larger profile would be cheaper than building another crossrail...

Quote:
It seems with longer trains we're forgetting the southerns philosophy of not having fixed formation units. There's a reason why we never saw 12LAV trains, it was because Southern saw that if there's a fault in that train you can't make it up with a spare unit. Until Thameslink, all southern region stock was formed with multiples of trains. So Thameslink would be run with 4-4-4 units. I do worry we'll see unit availability drop as a result of the loss of this flexibility when the 345s and 700s are introduced. It's worth noting SWTs latest EMU order fits the southern philosophy despite the fact the 30 5 car trains will spend most of their time in 10 car sets,
Of course, you shouldn't read "12 car train" as "12 car trainset" running 4+4+4 is a better idea then running a 12 car trainset. But why not build infrastructure so that eventually you'll be able to run 4+4+4+4?
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Old September 11th, 2014, 04:57 PM   #1938
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From Railway Gazette:

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http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/p...franchise.html

Govia directly awarded new South Eastern franchise
11 Sep 2014





UK: Incumbent Govia has been directly awarded a new franchise to operate South Eastern services from the expiry of its current contract on October 12 2014 until June 24 2018, the Department for Transport announced on September 11.

The current Integrated Kent franchise has been operated by the Govia joint venture of Go-Ahead (65%) and Keolis (35%) under the Southeastern brand since 2006. It carries 600 000 passengers/day on more than 2 000 daily commuter and regional passenger trains serving 179 stations in London, Kent and East Sussex, including Highspeed domestic services on High Speed 1.

The new franchise period covers disruption during the major rebuild of London Bridge station as part of the Thameslink Programme upgrade. Changes during the new franchise will include:
  • a new hourly Highspeed service via Gillingham, Ramsgate, Dover and Ashford;
  • Highspeed services calling at Snodland, Martin Mill and Walmer, with extra Highspeed services at Margate, Broadstairs and Ramsgate;
  • a peak Hastings Business Express service cutting up to 10 minutes from current Hastings - London journey times;
  • direct Maidstone East - London Blackfriars and Sheerness-on-Sea - London Victoria services;
  • a 'commitment to work with Transport for London' to extend the validity of TfL's Oyster smart card to cover Dartford and Swanley stations and London St Pancras - Stratford International Highspeed services;
  • more discount fares for off-peak travel;
  • additional passenger information screens, 63 more ticket machines and CCTV;
  • ticket gates at Swanley and Staplehurst;
  • deep clean of all stations, and 񋳼m of station improvements;
  • equipping staff with tablet computers;
  • up to 75 more gateline staff;
  • 'refresh' of more than 300 EMUs
'I know passengers on this route haven't always received the service that they deserve, which is why I am absolutely determined that today marks a fresh start for the Southeastern franchise', said Rail Minister Claire Perry. 'This decision has been taken after careful work by the Department for Transport with Go-Ahead plc, to ensure that the franchise can genuinely improve its services against a challenging backdrop of vital improvements to the tracks and stations on which their trains operate'.

Perry said a direct award rather than new competition would 'provide passengers with the best service for the next three years as well as offering the best value to all of us who help fund the railway through our taxes.'
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Old September 11th, 2014, 06:18 PM   #1939
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That isn't particularly long. The standard length for long distance trains (used when designing stations) on the continent is 400m.
Other than eurostars the longest intercity trains are 2+9 HSTs and 11car 390s (each carriage is ~24m)
Quote:
But if you plan all new infrastructure so that it can take longer and higher trains, you will eventually have upgraded the whole line, and then can expand services by running higher capacity trains.
I would imaging that once crossrail is saturated that rebuilding most of the bridges on the lines feeding in to it to a larger profile would be cheaper than building another crossrail...
Crossrail is essentially taking over existing services with a Central tunnel linking them together so it's not all new infrastructure. When Crossrails 24 9 car tph become at capacity they will utilise the spare platform lengths and lengthen the trains to 11 cars to cope with the increased demand.
Quote:
Of course, you shouldn't read "12 car train" as "12 car trainset" running 4+4+4 is a better idea then running a 12 car trainset. But why not build infrastructure so that eventually you'll be able to run 4+4+4+4?
I was talking about existing infrastructure like Thameslink. To extend that to cope with 16 20m cars would be mega costly and counter productive since platforms and signalling on the Brighton and midland main lines would need changing because a 16 car train (4-4-4-4) would in some locations fill two track circuits.

Anything new that is built, baring a few things like HS2, has to have trains that can fit our network. It can be future proofed as Crossrail is (it can take DD trains but is unlikely to ever in this half of the century) but you always have to remember that at some point this line will connect onto a line built in the 1800s which can be modernised all it likes but it won't get away from tight curves and restricted clearances, especially suburban routes,
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Old September 12th, 2014, 09:09 PM   #1940
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From Railway Gazette:

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http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/s...-in-japan.html

Hitachi Class 800 trainsets begin testing in Japan
12 Sep 2014


Three Class 800 trainsets are now undergoing testing at Hitachi's Japanese factory in Kasado

UK: The first of three pre-series Class 800 intercity trainsets ordered under the Department for Transport’s Intercity Express Programme has begun low-speed running trials on the test track at Hitachi’s Kasado factory in Japan.

The first of the three bi-mode sets is expected to arrive in Britain early next year for trials on the East Coast Main Line, although Hitachi is discussing the possibility of using the Old Dalby test track.

A set of full-size vehicle mock-ups at industrial premises near Warwick has now been seen by more than 2 000 ‘stakeholders’ as the final part of an iterative process to finalise the design details well before the trains enter commercial service. Put together by DCA Design International, the mock-ups consist of a cab segment and sections of two cars with the interiors fashioned to replicate all the different areas of the TSI-compliant interior

...
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