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Old January 12th, 2011, 02:39 AM   #2141
hofburg
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thanks, g.spinoza. the red and the blue project are great, the green one is substandard

for 1972 variant, once motorway reach Brunico there's really no need for two parallel motorways so close to each other.

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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
There are other projects (this map courtesy of legolego):


red route is through Val Pusteria till A22, blue route is the recent project of "passante Alpe-Adria" to connect with A23, green routes are relatively old projects (1990s) for a tunnel under Monte Cavallino and provide the "third access" to Austria:
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Old January 12th, 2011, 10:37 AM   #2142
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Originally Posted by hofburg View Post
for 1972 variant, once motorway reach Brunico there's really no need for two parallel motorways so close to each other.
No no, maybe I didn't explain properly but the two parallel motorways were just proposals... only one of them was to be built, but even back in '72 they didn't know what to choose.
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Old January 12th, 2011, 03:48 PM   #2143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
The connection of A31 south won't be with SS16 Adriatica but SS434 Transpolesana. This is a small map:


You can clearly see that A31 is going to be a mere double of A13, and won't serve Rovigo and its surroundings much better than A13 does...
SS343 is going to be UPGRADE in "Autostrada" (and it will be (maybe) connected to the new future "Autostrada Romea Commerciale" Ravenna-Venezia)
I'll provide a sample map.
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Old January 12th, 2011, 04:54 PM   #2144
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1 - A31 "Valdastico Nord" - Preliminary Project
2 - A31 "Valdastico Sud" - Under Construction (2012-2014)
3 - SS343 "transpolesana" - Upgrading "Autostrada" : "Autostrada Nogara-Mare) - Preliminary Project Aprroved (gen2010)
4 - Autostrada "Romea Commerciale" - Preliminary Project
5a - A27 - A22 - feasibility study
5b - A27 - A23 - Prliminary Project
6 - Autostrada "Cispadana" - A13-A22 - Definitive Project (open 2015?)
7 - A4 "Venezia-Trieste" - Upgrading (from 2+2 to 3+3) - Under Concstruction
8 - Autostrada Pedemontana Veneta - 2011 starting work (open 2015?)
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Old January 12th, 2011, 04:58 PM   #2145
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but Pedemontana Veneta is going to be a tolled superstrada, not an autostrada.
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Old January 12th, 2011, 08:10 PM   #2146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
The connection of A31 south won't be with SS16 Adriatica but SS434 Transpolesana. This is a small map:


You can clearly see that A31 is going to be a mere double of A13, and won't serve Rovigo and its surroundings much better than A13 does...
Thanks a lot for the detailed information concerning the motorway A31 (southern section) as well as the useful map. Anyway, I suppose that the SS434 Tranpolesana will be served as the 2+2 carriageway connection between Verona and Mare Adriatico. I would supppose that the section between A13 and SS309 (E55) is going to be built too....

The fact is that enother (long-term) project could be noted on the various map - the improvement of the SS16 between Ferrara and Ravenna. It might be the (partially) support for the traffic round Bologna - in spite of the project of the considered nothern-outer-ring in Bologna. The fact is that the traffic jams in rush hours there are quite known....
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Old January 12th, 2011, 08:23 PM   #2147
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Thanks a lot for the detailed information concerning the motorway A31 (southern section) as well as the useful map. Anyway, I suppose that the SS434 Tranpolesana will be served as the 2+2 carriageway connection between Verona and Mare Adriatico. I would supppose that the section between A13 and SS309 (E55) is going to be built too....
That's correct, but "Italy" and "suppose" are two terrible words when put together in a sentence. Ok, you didn't actually use "Italy"
The fact is that Transpolesana should be upgraded as legolego correctly pointed out, the preliminary project was approved one year ago but as of now there are no news...

Quote:
The fact is that enother (long-term) project could be noted on the various map - the improvement of the SS16 between Ferrara and Ravenna. It might be the (partially) support for the traffic round Bologna - in spite of the project of the considered nothern-outer-ring in Bologna. The fact is that the traffic jams in rush hours there are quite known....
Well SS16 serves different areas than Bologna. Bologna would need the completion of the complanare project (as of now, only the eastbound continuation of the tangenziale is open, until Ozzano: the westbound complanare does not exist).
Regarding the Passante (northern outer ring) what can I say... It's a big mess. You cannot simply build the Passante and leave the current urban section of A14 to be the new tangenziale, like they did in Venezia-Mestre. Urban A14 and current tangenziale are partly adjacent and partly separated, so some parts need to be completely rebuilt. And let's not forget that works to rebuild some exits on the tangenziale and other works for the dynamic third lane on A14 were finished a couple years ago.

If you ask me, they will not build Passante nord in the next 40 years.
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Old January 12th, 2011, 08:40 PM   #2148
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1 - A31 "Valdastico Nord" - Preliminary Project
2 - A31 "Valdastico Sud" - Under Construction (2012-2014)
3 - SS343 "transpolesana" - Upgrading "Autostrada" : "Autostrada Nogara-Mare) - Preliminary Project Aprroved (gen2010)
4 - Autostrada "Romea Commerciale" - Preliminary Project
5a - A27 - A22 - feasibility study
5b - A27 - A23 - Prliminary Project
6 - Autostrada "Cispadana" - A13-A22 - Definitive Project (open 2015?)
7 - A4 "Venezia-Trieste" - Upgrading (from 2+2 to 3+3) - Under Concstruction
8 - Autostrada Pedemontana Veneta - 2011 starting work (open 2015?)[/QUOTE]

O.k, that list of project is useful. I would stress and highlight the SS309 there. Unfortunatelly I have not driven that road in past few year. What could be stress there:

a)It is almost the Adriatic coast road - important for various seaside resorts there,
b)it is part of the E55,
c)it is part of the cheaper alternative route Venezia-Roma via Cesena,
d)it is important connection of two cities Venezia/Mestra and Ravenna,
e)it has to be compared with the longer and tolled motorway route - Mestre-Padova-Bologna-Rimini as the road utilized by lorries as well as the good connection between Venezia/A4 and Rimini/A14 (it might be 60km shorter than the motorway via Bologna...). In the past the trouble was the bad condition of that route. The issue is if the project Romea commerciale means the widening and up-grade of this road or the building-up of the new and tolled motorway....(?) Nowadays - in Mestre - the former A4 (A57 now) has to be driven on condition that the SS309 to Ravenna is choosen...
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Old January 12th, 2011, 08:52 PM   #2149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
That's correct, but "Italy" and "suppose" are two terrible words when put together in a sentence. Ok, you didn't actually use "Italy"
The fact is that Transpolesana should be upgraded as legolego correctly pointed out, the preliminary project was approved one year ago but as of now there are no news...


Well SS16 serves different areas than Bologna. Bologna would need the completion of the complanare project (as of now, only the eastbound continuation of the tangenziale is open, until Ozzano: the westbound complanare does not exist).
Regarding the Passante (northern outer ring) what can I say... It's a big mess. You cannot simply build the Passante and leave the current urban section of A14 to be the new tangenziale, like they did in Venezia-Mestre. Urban A14 and current tangenziale are partly adjacent and partly separated, so some parts need to be completely rebuilt. And let's not forget that works to rebuild some exits on the tangenziale and other works for the dynamic third lane on A14 were finished a couple years ago.

If you ask me, they will not build Passante nord in the next 40 years.
Yes, scheduling of any project in Italy...? Yes, it is usually not so easy...I see

The urban A14+tangenziale track are already almost "airport runways" there....Bologna is the city and really important motorways-juction....There are troubles with traffic jams on A13 too. Maybe, some widening of the (generally) 2+2-motorway A13 in section BO-Interport might be the step forward. As for the Passante there and the transit-traffic, it depends the part between A14 and A13 (the relation Rimini-Ferrara), it will be certainly attracting however the western part....I do not know....
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Old January 13th, 2011, 01:19 PM   #2150
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Yes, scheduling of any project in Italy...? Yes, it is usually not so easy...I see

The urban A14+tangenziale track are already almost "airport runways" there....Bologna is the city and really important motorways-juction....There are troubles with traffic jams on A13 too. Maybe, some widening of the (generally) 2+2-motorway A13 in section BO-Interport might be the step forward. As for the Passante there and the transit-traffic, it depends the part between A14 and A13 (the relation Rimini-Ferrara), it will be certainly attracting however the western part....I do not know....
- A13 will be 3+3 from Ferrara to Bologna and from Padova to Monselice (planned from Autostrade per l'Italia S.p.a.)
- A1 will be 4+4 from Piacenza Sud to Modena Nord (Modena-Bologna is 4+4 too), (planned from Autostrade per l'Italia S.p.a.)
- Romea Commerciale is plannedto be a NEW autostrada (here the preliminary project Orte-Mestre: http://www.retenoar.org/planimetrie/ )

...and here the part of the NEW autostrada Ravenna-Mestre:

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Old January 13th, 2011, 07:03 PM   #2151
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[QUOTE=legolego;70552835]- A13 will be 3+3 from Ferrara to Bologna and from Padova to Monselice (planned from Autostrade per l'Italia S.p.a.)
- A1 will be 4+4 from Piacenza Sud to Modena Nord (Modena-Bologna is 4+4 too), (planned from Autostrade per l'Italia S.p.a.)
- Romea Commerciale is plannedto be a NEW autostrada (here the preliminary project Orte-Mestre: http://www.retenoar.org/planimetrie/ )

...and here the part of the NEW autostrada Ravenna-Mestre:

The new autostrada Ravenna-Mestre is surely an interesting project. The fact is that the today connection SS309-SS16/Ravenna/-SS71 (as the "prolongation" of the SS3bis) - SS3bis-dir.Terni-Orte is already an important alternative route Venezia-Orte (Roma/A1). And the fact is - it is free of charge. It has to be compared with the motorway(s): A4-A13-A14(Bologna)-A1. Well, in Apennino-section (u/c in 90s) the E45 is (was?) in not good condition and there are almost no larger "area di servizio" as at the motorway (if I remenber well - there one larger service area near the juction Terni and "Tevere" between Perugia and Bagno di Romagna) but. Maybe, only the new superstrada Mestre-Ravenna will be tolled. Sure, it would be not so easy and cheap to set-up toll-booth at every junction between Ravenna and Orte (if another toll-technology is considered?). The project might be also important for Bologna as the relevant project for the traffic relation Venezia-Rimini-Ancona-Brindisi......
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Old January 14th, 2011, 12:39 PM   #2152
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I may take some pictures of the A27 in the next days.
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Originally Posted by msz2 View Post
So do it.
I took very few pictures, because I was running in the direction of the sun, so photos were difficult and most trials were unsuccessful.

Beginning of the A27. The toll station is some kilometres before the beginning of the motorway, after the first exit.



A service area a few hundred metres after the beginning. It is only southbound, there is a bridge linking it to a northbound parking area.



One of the many viaducts.



Fadalto ovest tunnel, 2055 m, it follows Le Cave Ovest tunnel, 3790 m. Between the two tunnel there is just a short open air part, so it's nearly 6 km underground (5845 m to be exact, while northbound it's 4508 m).

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Old January 14th, 2011, 12:39 PM   #2153
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Fadalto viaduct, 3567 m (southbound). The two carriageways follow different paths because the northbound one was initially planned as 1x2 national road, while the southbound carriageway was built with motorway standards. Beside that it avoids a difficult geological zone which obliged to abandon the original path and some tunnels of the northbound carriageway: http://goo.gl/Lukuf





A list of the structures on A27 can be seen here: http://www.lotsberg.net/data/italia/A27.html
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Old January 14th, 2011, 12:40 PM   #2154
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Some pictures of the A4 tunnels now. Before the opening of the Passante di mestre, which has some short (less than 500 m) artificial tunnels, these were the only tunnels of the A4 crossing an isolated group of hills in the middle of Padana Plain. There are two successive groups of four tunnels, 600 m and 300 m long, each with two 3-lanes tunnels for the motorway and two 2-lanes tunnels for an expressway, certainly the old path of the motorway.



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Old January 14th, 2011, 12:48 PM   #2155
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One of the quite common bridge restaurants, here on A4.

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Old January 14th, 2011, 12:50 PM   #2156
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A tree in the middle of A4. Also these trees are quite common.

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Old January 14th, 2011, 02:03 PM   #2157
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These trees are quite famous... aren't they the ones near Padova?
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Old January 14th, 2011, 02:10 PM   #2158
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Yes they are.
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Old January 14th, 2011, 08:10 PM   #2159
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hehe, yes, I am a fan of these trees too. are they intentionally there?

thanks for the pics! we should also note that venice - treviso section is 3x3, and A27 actually starts at the venice airport.

@Coccodrillo what was your route? I see you took A4 direction Milano also.
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Old January 14th, 2011, 08:30 PM   #2160
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Cortina d'Ampezzo-SS51-A27-A4-A8-A9-A2.ch
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