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Old February 16th, 2011, 01:45 PM   #2281
TohrAlkimista
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
I was there some months ago but didn't have the chance to drive it. I must say this particular road is horrible. It is too close to the historical centre, some buildings and even a church are "suffocated" by its presence. It spread controversies when it was built, back in the 70s I guess.
When you drive on the sopraelevata of Genova, you have the best view of the city.
Especially at night, the view is amazing.
Unfortunately from the street level it's very awful.
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Old February 16th, 2011, 02:13 PM   #2282
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Those are the so-called "Vele" di Scampia, the most notorious complex that is always mentioned when referring to crime problems of that neighbourhood. For the record, the complex has been dismantled quite recently.
AFAIK, only two out of the 4 vele have been dismantled. Some architect issued a plea for them to become a sort of national monument:

http://www.rassegnastampa.comune.rom...10101116862452

I hope sincerely they won't be.
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Old February 16th, 2011, 04:29 PM   #2283
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Originally Posted by hofburg View Post
italians love that kind of roads.
I wouldn't say 'love'

They built those elevated streets mostly in '60s and '70s, but pratically everywhere they are within the cities, from Milan to Rome to Genova, people hate 'em and ask for them to be demolished
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Old February 16th, 2011, 04:47 PM   #2284
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Because they can visualize the current structure. But the average citizen cannot visualize the future traffic patterns once you demolish such a viaduct. As stated, the sopraelevata di Genova carries 80.000 vehicles per day. That's comparable to the traffic on 3 or 4 urban main roads, so you cannot just demolish it without an replacement tunnel.
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Old February 16th, 2011, 04:56 PM   #2285
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yup, then you get Paris, without any viaducts, and jammed 24/24.
you should be proud of such roads.

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Old February 16th, 2011, 04:57 PM   #2286
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Because they can visualize the current structure. But the average citizen cannot visualize the future traffic patterns once you demolish such a viaduct. As stated, the sopraelevata di Genova carries 80.000 vehicles per day. That's comparable to the traffic on 3 or 4 urban main roads, so you cannot just demolish it without an replacement tunnel.
For the average citizen shape is more important than function. I hate sopraelevate and I'd like to see all of them torn to pieces, but only if a suitable - and less invasive - option is in place.
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Old February 16th, 2011, 05:01 PM   #2287
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Well I think the option of closing it at night is a good solution until a replacement tunnel can be constructed. The night period (22-6 or 23-7) carries only 8 - 10% of the 24h traffic. If there is a normal urban road beneath it (as is the case in Milano and Genova) this shouldn't be a big problem.
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Old February 16th, 2011, 05:08 PM   #2288
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I don't see what this should accomplish. If they're building a replacement tunnel they can leave the sopraelevata open 24/7, and then demolish it when the tunnel is complete.
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Old February 16th, 2011, 05:15 PM   #2289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Because they can visualize the current structure. But the average citizen cannot visualize the future traffic patterns once you demolish such a viaduct. As stated, the sopraelevata di Genova carries 80.000 vehicles per day. That's comparable to the traffic on 3 or 4 urban main roads, so you cannot just demolish it without an replacement tunnel.
Infact in the three cases I quoted there are projects to build tunnels

In Rome the new stretch with tunnels of tangenziale est is u/c (but now I find out that once completed they won't demolish the viaducts, or at least part of 'em)
In Genova they proposed a tunnel under Porto Vecchio, but it will remain just a proposal I think

While in Milan current mayor wanted to tear down the viaduct you posted (here we call it Monteceneri viaduct or more often with the wrong name of 'ponte della Ghisolfa', because actually Ghisolfa bridge is just the bridge crossing the railway where the viaduct join) and build a tunnel.
But the tunnel wuold be a secondarian stretch of a huge project which has as main branch a tunnel 15 km long crossing the city center

I don't know if they will ever build it, but they scheduled it in the general urban plan they recently approuved





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Old February 16th, 2011, 05:19 PM   #2290
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Well I think the option of closing it at night is a good solution until a replacement tunnel can be constructed. The night period (22-6 or 23-7) carries only 8 - 10% of the 24h traffic. If there is a normal urban road beneath it (as is the case in Milano and Genova) this shouldn't be a big problem.
In Milan Monteceneri viaduct is closed from 22.00 to 6.00 during the night
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Old February 16th, 2011, 06:28 PM   #2291
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In Milan Monteceneri viaduct is closed from 22.00 to 6.00 during the night
Don't even remember me. I used to drive from my house close to the Naviglio Grande (almost outside Milano city limit) to a place at the Bicocca campus at night, to visit a gf. The route was easier to navigate via the western parts of the "urban ring", which includes the Monteceneri elevated expressway. Coming back, it added some 6/7 minutes because the elevated expressway was closed and the traffic lights at grade level just were out of sync most of the time!!!

There were other options, like driving through the S/E parts of the urban ring, or taking shortcuts near downtown, but that took longer. Crossing through the inner areas was even worse, particularly at early evening. Gridlock of trams, poorly signaled crossings, pedestrians @ Porta Genova FS/MM station and so.

Ideally, they should build an elevated expressway all along the urban ring road.

This ring road is all way (but for a short section) build as a boulevard that once delimited the confines of the city (there is an inner ring, that was once the old city walls - for most of it visible on Google Maps). It has a good alignment, but traffic jams and sometimes illegal parking kill its function. The area with these elevated expressways is a chokepoint: contrary to what happens in the east/norheast sides, there are no alternative thoroughfares, and the city is cut by a massive rail junction and a nearby rail yard. There is a trolleybus circle line all over the way, jammed and inefficient, that should have been long replaced by a subway circle line, freeing up space for 2/3 more car lanes. It crosses under Milano Centrale rail station, an area that is very soggy (poor-lit tunnels which didn't see decent repaint/refurbishment for a while, homeless people around and so).

The environwackos and cry-me-a-tree green weirdos once wanted to make all the are within that "ring" subject to "Ecopass", a daily tax on more polluting cars and trucks.
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Last edited by Suburbanist; February 16th, 2011 at 06:35 PM.
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Old February 17th, 2011, 11:49 AM   #2292
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The definitive project for the completion of A12 "Tirrenica" between Livorno and Civitavecchia is finally ready, and it will be made public in 20 days:

http://www.repubblica.it/ambiente/20.../?ref=HREC1-12 (Italian only)

The superstrada Aurelia will be widened from 14-18.60 m to 24 m, with the exception of Fonteblanda-Follonica section which will be widened only to 18.60 (no emergency lane will be built).

The whole section is expected to open for traffic in 2016.

Last edited by g.spinoza; February 17th, 2011 at 12:31 PM.
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Old February 17th, 2011, 04:06 PM   #2293
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Just to tease you more, this should be the definitive project of A12:


No toll booths in and out Italian-style, but a series of barriers, French "Provencale"-style.
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Old February 17th, 2011, 04:58 PM   #2294
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No toll booths in and out Italian-style, but a series of barriers, French "Provencale"-style.
Weren't they going for electronic toll collection? I don't like that idea, not only because it will slow down travel times for at least 13 minutes without queues, but also because it will mean less grandiose, more in number and clogged with local traffic exits.

32 exits for 206km are too many! There should be a maximum of 20 exits, to reduce local traffic on highways in divert it into the historical Aurelia or other local road.
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Old February 17th, 2011, 05:23 PM   #2295
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I rather find 7 barriers for 200 km very annoying.
Exit every 6 km in average is not too much in my opinion.
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Old February 17th, 2011, 05:49 PM   #2296
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I rather find 7 barriers for 200 km very annoying.
Exit every 6 km in average is not too much in my opinion.
That is more than the A3, highway known for its excessive number of exits built to appease local politicians jealous of their neighbors getting one, and they having to drive through the other village should they want access to the highway.
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Old February 17th, 2011, 05:57 PM   #2297
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They're more or less 45 for 440 km (not counting the urban ones in Reggio Calabria)... you are right about politicians and such, but consider also the fact that, given the montainous territory of A3, reaching some towns by local roads is often difficult if not impossible. A higher number of exits with respect to a motorway entirely in Padana plain is normal.
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Old February 17th, 2011, 06:06 PM   #2298
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
They're more or less 45 for 440 km (not counting the urban ones in Reggio Calabria)... you are right about politicians and such, but consider also the fact that, given the montainous territory of A3, reaching some towns by local roads is often difficult if not impossible. A higher number of exits with respect to a motorway entirely in Padana plain is normal.
I was thinking mainly about such urban exists in Reggio Calabria, Villa San Giovanni and at the beginning of A3. Otherwise, I agree with your assessment. There are no old roman roads following A3 alignment in its most rugged sectors.

In any case: the Livorno-Civitavecchia will have way too many exits. It seems to be a trend nowadays: everyone wants its own exist. Indeed, it is part of result of flawed planning: they decided to upgrade some old Aurelia 1x2 sectors to expressway standards back then, and now don't want to build another entirely new alignment with fewer exits.
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Old February 17th, 2011, 06:24 PM   #2299
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The environwackos and cry-me-a-tree green weirdos once wanted to make all the are within that "ring" subject to "Ecopass", a daily tax on more polluting cars and trucks.
They're wrong: because the right way should be municipality limits not just the ring... Anyway an extension to the ring (now it's within the 'internal ring' area) should be a first step
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Old February 17th, 2011, 06:28 PM   #2300
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I rather find 7 barriers for 200 km very annoying.
Exit every 6 km in average is not too much in my opinion.
True, for a 200 km toll road you want a closed ticket system, not a cheap-but-annoying open toll system. Open systems are only interesting for short urban sections, not long-distance toll roads.
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