daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old February 17th, 2011, 06:40 PM   #2301
g.spinoza
Lord Kelvin
 
g.spinoza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Torino
Posts: 9,522
Likes (Received): 2122

At this point, after 40 years, I'd say "whatever, just build it"!

I know there have been many complaints by locals because there aren't many alternatives, and the open toll system is a way to keep some stretches free (for instance around Grosseto).

But I agree there are too many exits: "Centrale Enel"? "S. Vincenzo" north and south? "S. Pietro in Palazzi" and "Cecina"?
g.spinoza está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old February 17th, 2011, 08:39 PM   #2302
3naranze
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belluno - I
Posts: 369
Likes (Received): 2

italian job on traffic sign

this sign is on test on A27 just before Vittorio Veneto sud exit,northbound: it's mandatory to use winter tyres or have chains on board from 15 november till 15 april between Vittorio Veneto sud exit and merger with SS51 (national road nr.51), i.e. Pian di Vedoia, where A27 ends. please, note the big effort to help foreigners

from "strade sicure" blog the reference point:
3naranze no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 17th, 2011, 09:45 PM   #2303
x-type
con los terroristas
 
x-type's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Bjelovar [HR]
Posts: 13,474
Likes (Received): 3448

wouldn't something like this be much more intuitive and understandable?

__________________
Svaki dan sanjam autobahn...
x-type no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 18th, 2011, 11:44 AM   #2304
Eddard Stark
Keep your head
 
Eddard Stark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Bruxelles
Posts: 13,171
Likes (Received): 3847

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
True, for a 200 km toll road you want a closed ticket system, not a cheap-but-annoying open toll system. Open systems are only interesting for short urban sections, not long-distance toll roads.
it shall be a free-flow system, similar to the "tutor" active on some italian highways for speed control

So no barriers
Eddard Stark no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 18th, 2011, 11:56 AM   #2305
g.spinoza
Lord Kelvin
 
g.spinoza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Torino
Posts: 9,522
Likes (Received): 2122

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
it shall be a free-flow system, similar to the "tutor" active on some italian highways for speed control

So no barriers
Those were some rumors... the map I posted, taken from iltirreno newspaper, says otherwise
g.spinoza está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old February 18th, 2011, 11:57 AM   #2306
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,629
Likes (Received): 19425

How will it work for foreign vehicles?
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old February 18th, 2011, 12:20 PM   #2307
g.spinoza
Lord Kelvin
 
g.spinoza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Torino
Posts: 9,522
Likes (Received): 2122

The subject is not clear yet. In this article from iltirreno newspaper, from which the map comes, there are some inconsistencies: the map clearly shows the seven barriers French-style, but the text reads:

Quote:
Ad ogni svincolo sarā installato un sistema di controllo elettronico.

Un veicolo passa e il costo del pedaggio sarā registrato sul telepass. Se il veicolo non ha il telepass, il rilevatore riprende il numero della targa e invia a domicilio il pedaggio da pagare.
Quote:
An electronic control system will be installed at each exit. The toll will be registered on the Telepass device. If a vehicle is not equipped with Telepass, a detector will scan the license plate and send the bill to the car owner.
g.spinoza está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old February 18th, 2011, 12:20 PM   #2308
Fabri88
Keratoconic User
 
Fabri88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: BUSTO ARSIZIO
Posts: 6,840
Likes (Received): 2201

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
How will it work for foreign vehicles?
Do you want an answer? I don't know!

Talking about chains in my province wheel chains are compulsory:

- from 15th November to 15th March
- if you don't have winter tyres
- in case of intense snow (with 2cm of snow you can't put chains at your wheels).

Talking about the sign in Veneto: Italian people are hard to understand the single symbol. You have to explain the meaning.*

Fortunately younger people are improving their acknowledge of road symbols due to a better driving school.

*[OT] in Germany and in some other countries is usual to see many acronyms such as:

- FCB (FC Bayern)
- LKW (Lastkraftwagen)
- NRW (Nordrhein-Westfalen)
- OÖ (Ober-Österreich)

and so on...

Italian people get crazy when seeing acronyms: they usually don't know the meanings of dozens of acronyms.

We have regions called as Trentino Alto Adige, Friuli Venezia Giulia and Emilia Romagna, but very seldom you'll see TAA, FVG or ER.

PS: if an Italian see ER he thinks to the medical fiction.
Fabri88 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 18th, 2011, 12:27 PM   #2309
GENIUS LOCI
No More Italian Mod
 
GENIUS LOCI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Milano
Posts: 35,327
Likes (Received): 11132

Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Those were some rumors... the map I posted, taken from iltirreno newspaper, says otherwise
The map shows there are barriers but doesn't tell if those ones were traditional barriers or just gates with a cash flow system
__________________
URBANFILE
GENIUS LOCI no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 18th, 2011, 12:35 PM   #2310
g.spinoza
Lord Kelvin
 
g.spinoza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Torino
Posts: 9,522
Likes (Received): 2122

You're right, I didn't think of those... well, let's wait a couple of weeks for the official presentation of the project.

Changing subject:
Quote:
He destroyed his black Pagani Zonda hitting the guard rail on the A10 after the Spotorno exit and came out unharmed. The car, which costs 1.2 million euro, is wrecked. Italian Road Police suspended his license but mystery on the identity of the guy who drove the Monaco-registered supercar remains. The accident occurred two nights ago, after midnight, on the autostrada towards Genoa. After passing at 320 km/h other cars travelling the same route, he lost control of the powerful car, went into tailspin and, after hitting the guard rail on the right side lost a tyre, rolled over and crashed into the left side guard rail. The young guy came out apparently unharmed from the wreckage of the car.
http://www.corriere.it/cronache/11_f...110d8882.shtml
g.spinoza está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old February 18th, 2011, 12:41 PM   #2311
Fabri88
Keratoconic User
 
Fabri88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: BUSTO ARSIZIO
Posts: 6,840
Likes (Received): 2201

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
True, for a 200 km toll road you want a closed ticket system, not a cheap-but-annoying open toll system. Open systems are only interesting for short urban sections, not long-distance toll roads.
A8 has open system: I think it is better for short travelling.

I can travel from Busto Arsizio (my town) to Lomazzo on the A9 (eastern branch of Milano - Laghi motorways system) travelling for 26 km without paying any toll.

Other free tracks are:

· Busto Arsizio - Legnano (7 km)
· Cavaria con Premezzo - Varese (11 km)
Fabri88 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 18th, 2011, 12:51 PM   #2312
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21254

Quote:
Originally Posted by GENIUS LOCI View Post
They're wrong: because the right way should be municipality limits not just the ring... Anyway an extension to the ring (now it's within the 'internal ring' area) should be a first step
Ecopass is ridden with problems ans special handouts. Essentially, it is meant to keep the poorer Italians who commute to the inner center of Milano from using older, more polluting cars to drive there via a toll that hit their budgets. Residents of the area pay almost nothing - if any -. The scheme should be repealed ASAP. Indeed, all environmental exclusion zones in Italy, now a maze of local regulations, should be dismantled in favor of single national standards based on Euro categories, and nothing more, requiring no registration, pass, sticker whatsoever. There are a handful of Euro categories, let each city choose any exclusion to certain older cars, without any possibility of giving residents a free pass circulating there. An Euro-0 car pollutes the same per km, be it owned and driven by a retiree who's lived in the same house for 40 years on a meager pension or by a day-worker commuting to work in the are.

So the ECOPASS, as it is, is nothing short of a money-grab scheme preying on commuters living outside Milano. Those living within the city, depending on where they live, could even have the case to use the subway or so, but there is no way for a commuter living in a city 40km out of downtown Milano to get there daily, and timely, unless he/she wants to suffocate in overcrowded regional trains that takes ages and are almost always delayed transporting more than 3 passengers per square meter in a seater car.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 18th, 2011, 12:57 PM   #2313
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21254

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabri88 View Post
A8 has open system: I think it is better for short travelling.

I can travel from Busto Arsizio (my town) to Lomazzo on the A9 (eastern branch of Milano - Laghi motorways system) travelling for 26 km without paying any toll.

Other free tracks are:

· Busto Arsizio - Legnano (7 km)
· Cavaria con Premezzo - Varese (11 km)
This is unfair IMO. It means drivers coming from Malpensa, Como and Varese to Milano are indirectly subsidizing those short hops from local drivers. It is an inherent problem of any open barrier toll system: as not every driver pays, the ones who pay ought to pay more for those who don't.

I think open tolls make sense only in the context of major bridges or bypasses that are sort-of independent systems built with specific purposes. Maybe a tunnel, or a spur in which most traffic passes through a single toll en-route to a major highway. The roads around Milano should all use gate-based toll. However, I do agree there is no space to build toll plazas in A4 and in most of Tangenziale Est exits. Maybe when electronic tolling becomes the norm it will be possible to install such systems.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 18th, 2011, 02:51 PM   #2314
Fabri88
Keratoconic User
 
Fabri88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: BUSTO ARSIZIO
Posts: 6,840
Likes (Received): 2201

The fact is that distances are so little that someone use Milano - Laghi as a "Superstrada" (toll free) and other people use it as an "Autostrada" (paying toll).

Gallarate entrance is only for medium-long travelling.

If I have to go to Varese I always enter A8 in Cavaria to avoid toll payment.

The same do Gallaratese people when they have to go to Milan: they always enter A8 in Busto Arsizio.

Drivers coming from Malpensa pay once: Milano Nord (1,50 €) as the track from Malpensa to Busto Arsizio is served by a "Superstrada" (Strada Statale 336).

Drivers from Varese pay twice: 1,30 € in Gallarate and 1,50 € in Milano Nord (total amount: 2,80 € for 42km)

Drivers from Como pays twice: 1,90 € in Como Grandate and 1,50 € in Milano Nord (total amount: 3,40 € for 36km)

According to the toll per km ( http://www.autostrade.it/pop_tariffa_1.html ) Varese's people should pay 2,70 € (they pay 2,80 €) and Como's people should pay 2,30 € (they pay 3,40 €).

Last edited by Fabri88; February 18th, 2011 at 03:01 PM.
Fabri88 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 18th, 2011, 06:15 PM   #2315
x-type
con los terroristas
 
x-type's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Bjelovar [HR]
Posts: 13,474
Likes (Received): 3448

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabri88 View Post

Talking about the sign in Veneto: Italian people are hard to understand the single symbol. You have to explain the meaning.*

Fortunately younger people are improving their acknowledge of road symbols due to a better driving school.

*[OT] in Germany and in some other countries is usual to see many acronyms such as:

- FCB (FC Bayern)
- LKW (Lastkraftwagen)
- NRW (Nordrhein-Westfalen)
- OÖ (Ober-Österreich)

and so on...

Italian people get crazy when seeing acronyms: they usually don't know the meanings of dozens of acronyms.

We have regions called as Trentino Alto Adige, Friuli Venezia Giulia and Emilia Romagna, but very seldom you'll see TAA, FVG or ER.

PS: if an Italian see ER he thinks to the medical fiction.


don't be so harsh, Internazionale is much more known worlwide as Inter
__________________
Svaki dan sanjam autobahn...
x-type no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 18th, 2011, 06:40 PM   #2316
g.spinoza
Lord Kelvin
 
g.spinoza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Torino
Posts: 9,522
Likes (Received): 2122

Quote:
Originally Posted by x-type View Post


don't be so harsh, Internazionale is much more known worlwide as Inter
He is right, though: Italians don't like acronyms (in fact Inter is not one). In fact, foreigners tend to use full names for football teams like "AC Milan", "FC Barcelona" or something like that. Italians most of the times ignore what FC and AC stand for, and never ever say them when talking about "Milan" or "Barcelona"...
g.spinoza está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old February 18th, 2011, 07:00 PM   #2317
sotonsi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,563

AC Milan is a little bit different to normal English usage, as Inter Milan means that the AC has to appear on the first use, before becoming just 'Milan' (and Inter becomes 'Inter' after the first use). However, FC and similar are never mentioned - it's always, for example, Manchester United (or Man United, Man U or ManUre) rather than Manchester United Football Club/Manchester United FC. You may (and Man U is a rare case) see MUFC on banners/graffiti.
sotonsi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 18th, 2011, 11:57 PM   #2318
x-type
con los terroristas
 
x-type's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Bjelovar [HR]
Posts: 13,474
Likes (Received): 3448

Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
He is right, though: Italians don't like acronyms (in fact Inter is not one).
have you noticed emoticons in my post?
__________________
Svaki dan sanjam autobahn...
x-type no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 19th, 2011, 12:02 AM   #2319
g.spinoza
Lord Kelvin
 
g.spinoza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Torino
Posts: 9,522
Likes (Received): 2122

Quote:
Originally Posted by x-type View Post
have you noticed emoticons in my post?
Yes I did... I just went into "obnoxious mode"
g.spinoza está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old February 19th, 2011, 01:44 PM   #2320
-Pino-
Funkin' down the Track
 
-Pino-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 706
Likes (Received): 127

Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
He is right, though: Italians don't like acronyms
While I think that it's true that you don't see as many acronyms in Italy as you see elsewhere, road names must be an exception. BreBeMi, Fi-Pi-Li, road numbers ending with dir., the whole lot ...
__________________
http://www.brombeer.net/signs
-Pino- no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
autobahn, autostrada, highways, italia, italy, motorways

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 10:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium