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Old April 29th, 2011, 08:54 AM   #2401
Eddard Stark
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
I don't think the widening of A14 will solve the problems, because problems aren't on that section. I drove several times a year for 7 years that section, and the problems were always between Imola and Pesaro. Also this time the problem was the huge amount of traffic entering the autostrada from Romagna northbound (that's the reason why jams always stop at Imola), but jams were so thick and long that they mirrored even south.

The only definitive answer would be separating long-range traffic and short-range traffic, but I recognize that is unfeasible. I think that it would be more useful to enlarge to 4 lanes from Pesaro northwards than enlarge the Marche section, which is never too jammed, and when it is, the culprit is in Romagna.
A 4th lane from Pesaro in a section that used to cope even with two is completely useless.

What would be useful is the 4th lane between Imola and Bologna to cope with the traffic coming from Ravenna

Alas, this is planned
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Old April 29th, 2011, 09:46 AM   #2402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
A 4th lane from Pesaro in a section that used to cope even with two is completely useless.
It depends on what is your definition of "cope". Two lanes from Pesaro to Rimini Nord are ridiculously insufficient, three would be definitely better
I meant from Pesaro to Rimini, not from Pesaro southwards.

Quote:
What would be useful is the 4th lane between Imola and Bologna to cope with the traffic coming from Ravenna
This would be really useless. Never had any problems between Imola and Bologna. In times of vacation, to come back home at Bologna people mostly enter the Autostrada at Rimini, Riccione, Cesena and Ravenna, and in those points jam form. Jams always stop at Imola, because nobody enters the autostrada at Imola to go to Bologna: first, because Imola is not a tourist destination; second, because from Imola to Bologna one takes the old 1+1 statale (I did this many times).
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Old April 29th, 2011, 11:04 AM   #2403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
It depends on what is your definition of "cope". Two lanes from Pesaro to Rimini Nord are ridiculously insufficient, three would be definitely better
I meant from Pesaro to Rimini, not from Pesaro southwards.


This would be really useless. Never had any problems between Imola and Bologna. In times of vacation, to come back home at Bologna people mostly enter the Autostrada at Rimini, Riccione, Cesena and Ravenna, and in those points jam form. Jams always stop at Imola, because nobody enters the autostrada at Imola to go to Bologna: first, because Imola is not a tourist destination; second, because from Imola to Bologna one takes the old 1+1 statale (I did this many times).
instead most of the problems after Rimini Nord are due to the intersection with the highway from Ravenna. The problems are BEFORE the intersection but to solve them you need a 4th lane between Imola and Bologna. Simple traffic management: you need to unclog the bottleneck there in order to make traffic smoother BEFORE Imola (from Rimini to Imola)

People that know this have already thought about it: the lane has been included in the 2008 plan agreed with Autostrade

A third lane from Pesaro to Rimini Nord will be more than enough on 364 days on 365. A fourth lane in this piece of road is today - I confirm it again - completely useless. People tend to underestimate the impact of an additional lane on traffic which is strong but not ruinous on most accasions in this piece of road
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Old April 29th, 2011, 11:19 AM   #2404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
A third lane from Pesaro to Rimini Nord will be more than enough on 364 days on 365. A fourth lane in this piece of road is today - I confirm it again - completely useless. People tend to underestimate the impact of an additional lane on traffic which is strong but not ruinous on most accasions in this piece of road
I agree with you on this. What I meant is I will favour a one lane expansion from Imola to Pesaro (that is, 4 lane between Imola and Rimini and 3 between Rimini and Pesaro). I was simply too lazy to specify this before so I just wrote "4 lanes" all way down.

I'm not so sure about the impact of Ravenna junction, I never drove that particular section, but I guess you could be right.
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Old April 29th, 2011, 02:58 PM   #2405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
I agree with you on this. What I meant is I will favour a one lane expansion from Imola to Pesaro (that is, 4 lane between Imola and Rimini and 3 between Rimini and Pesaro). I was simply too lazy to specify this before so I just wrote "4 lanes" all way down.

I'm not so sure about the impact of Ravenna junction, I never drove that particular section, but I guess you could be right.
the thing is - regardless of how many people com from Ravenna junction - that these people go on this piece of road (Imola-Bologna) together with most of the people that come from Rimini or further south

Therefore the SUM of the two flows and the delicate interaction of a junction create long lines usually from Rimini to Imola

But paradoxically you solve nothing enlarging the street from Rimini to Imola bc in reality the bottleneck that creates the clogging is ahead of Imola (imolo-bologna coming from the south)

If you prefer think of a river: if you create a bottleneck in the middle of the river the level of the water rises behind the barrier but the problem is ahead
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Old April 30th, 2011, 09:53 PM   #2406
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An interesting link that compares the growth of the space used for roads: http://www.miol.it/stagniweb/foto6.a...Righe=40&Col=3

All photos on two pages:
http://www.miol.it/stagniweb/foto6.a...igheI=40&Col=3
http://www.miol.it/stagniweb/foto6.a...igheI=40&Col=3

Suburbanist may want to translate some of the texts...

Pedemontana on GoogleMaps: http://www.pedemontana.com/googlemap.php

(the blue lines which apepars there and on the website are a planned railway)
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Old April 30th, 2011, 10:03 PM   #2407
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Rail is overall more space-consuming than motorways when you compare it to usage. In the Netherlands the rail system consumes over 6 times more space than the motorway system based on usage. (1.16 km² per 1 billion passenger-km for motorways compared 6.6 km² per 1 billion passenger-km for rail).
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Old April 30th, 2011, 10:22 PM   #2408
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That one with Novara west (Ovest) junction is very good example of oversizing things and making them more complicated.
http://www.miol.it/stagniweb/foto6.a...igheI=40&Col=3
http://www.miol.it/stagniweb/foto6.a...igheI=40&Col=3

While impressive sight, A4 between Milano and Torino with all the exits and enormous viaducts consumes much too much space (I would rather not ask, hom mush did it cost to construct only one exit with at least two or three such viaducts, and there are more than ten of them).
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Old April 30th, 2011, 10:28 PM   #2409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keber View Post
That one with Novara west (Ovest) junction is very good example of oversizing things and making them more complicated.
http://www.miol.it/stagniweb/foto6.a...igheI=40&Col=3
http://www.miol.it/stagniweb/foto6.a...igheI=40&Col=3

While impressive sight, A4 between Milano and Torino with all the exits and enormous viaducts consumes much too much space (I would rather not ask, hom mush did it cost to construct only one exit with at least two or three such viaducts, and there are more than ten of them).
bridges and viaducts had to be (re)built completely along some exits bc as you may know a new high speed rail was built along the highway together with the widening of the same highway from 2 to 3 lanes between 2004 and 2008.

Basically before there was a rather small highway with 4 lanes, now there is a much larger 6 lanes highway and the tracks of the HSR

This choice may have created some larger and more complicated exits but saved an enormous amount of territory inserting the HSR on the same "corridor" of the highway therefore leaving the rest of the land between the two cities as pristine as before.

The same system has been largely applied to the Milano-Bologna HSR which runs along A1 (but a little bit less closely interconnected)
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Old April 30th, 2011, 10:38 PM   #2410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Rail is overall more space-consuming than motorways when you compare it to usage. In the Netherlands the rail system consumes over 6 times more space than the motorway system based on usage. (1.16 km² per 1 billion passenger-km for motorways compared 6.6 km² per 1 billion passenger-km for rail).
I suppose you are comparing all surfaces used, not a good comparison.

In cities where space is a limited roads are much less efficent than rail. Obviously this depend of the needs of each single traveller, but often cars are not used because of real needs but as a lot of people are too lazy to find alternatives.
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Old April 30th, 2011, 10:43 PM   #2411
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I know all of that, I've traveled there during A4 reconstruction and few times after.

Still in my opinion it could be done much less "glamorous" with just a little of additional land cost. Probably the biggest obstacle to make thing more simple are toll stations. Without them (using electronic toll) those big junctions co

When will remaining 3+3 parts (without hard shoulder) close to Milano be reconstructed?
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Old May 1st, 2011, 01:27 AM   #2412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keber View Post
I know all of that, I've traveled there during A4 reconstruction and few times after.

Still in my opinion it could be done much less "glamorous" with just a little of additional land cost. Probably the biggest obstacle to make thing more simple are toll stations. Without them (using electronic toll) those big junctions co

When will remaining 3+3 parts (without hard shoulder) close to Milano be reconstructed?
the first piece is U/C (untill Novara). From Marcallo Mesero (intersection for going to MXP) to Milan the highway will get not only a new emergency lane but will be widened to 4 lanes+emergency

Projects have been approved, construction shall start within the year

You are right about toll stations, however while the new system will be applied to new highways where it is hard to build big toll stations it is not going to happen very soon I think on the existing italian network that - being mostly integrated and interconnected - will remain with toll barriers I believe
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Old May 1st, 2011, 09:34 PM   #2413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Rail is overall more space-consuming than motorways when you compare it to usage. In the Netherlands the rail system consumes over 6 times more space than the motorway system based on usage. (1.16 km² per 1 billion passenger-km for motorways compared 6.6 km² per 1 billion passenger-km for rail).
Chris, I would like to use these data in a discuss but I need the source of them. Could you provide it me?
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Old May 1st, 2011, 09:51 PM   #2414
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Quote:
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Chris, I would like to use these data in a discuss but I need the source of them. Could you provide it me?
do you also have angry railfans who claim that roads are hell, and railroads are heaven?
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Old May 6th, 2011, 03:15 PM   #2415
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Some days ago the A22 exit "Trento Sud" has been opened. "Trento centro" will be closed in the next months.

User Schwarzpunkt had some pictures posted in the Italian language thread and said he's going to post some of them also here.
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Old May 8th, 2011, 09:09 AM   #2416
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A22 Section Ora - Verona nord (04 may 2011) 1/2

1. From Caldaro-Kaltern to A22 station Egna/Ora.
The lago di Caldaro – Kalterer See


2.


3.


4. Toll gate Egna/Ora


5. Wrong signs: In this photo there is a wrong sig. What is it?


6.


7.


8.


9. works of replacement of the central barrier


10.


11.


12.


13.


14.


15.


16.
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Old May 8th, 2011, 09:12 AM   #2417
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Part 2/2

17. The new exit of Trento sud was opened on this day (04.05)


18. This is one of the few sections with the old guard rails with the central hedge. The new barrier is narrower. This to have an enlargement of the emergency lane, necessary to create the dynamic third lane. (http://www.a22.it/en/Technical-area/.../Dynamic-lane/)


19. Tunnel Piedicastello (Trento)


20.


21. The new exit Trento sud


22.


23

24.


25. Clean energy on Motorway...


26.


27.


28.


29. signals that will be used for dynamic third lane


30.


31. luckily i get out before the 4 km Queue


32.


33.


34.


35. Toll gate Verona nord


36. 6+5 urban road in Verona.
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Old May 8th, 2011, 07:52 PM   #2418
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nice pics! I like A22 very much, except it's brown color all the way to Brenner. I don't get it what so wrong about that sign.

Last edited by hofburg; May 8th, 2011 at 08:01 PM.
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Old May 8th, 2011, 08:07 PM   #2419
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Maybe not this:

but this?
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Old May 8th, 2011, 10:58 PM   #2420
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Yes.
the first means "it is forbidden to go straight" and in this case has no sense.


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