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Old May 11th, 2011, 04:46 PM   #2441
g.spinoza
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxx☢Power View Post
Agreed on the last part, but not the first. If the exit suddenly becomes poorly signed when you remove that sign then maybe it's a problem with the signage leading up to the exit. My point is, that sign shouldn't be necessary at all, exits are signed well in advance and if a driver missed those signs then it's either because he's not paying attention or because of poor design.
And we return to the beginning of the discussion. If you find them unnecessary because one should have to rely on warning signs, I found the repeated inclusion of road number signs unnecessary, because of course you will find directional signs with the number of the autostrada during the approach to it, and if you reached the toll barrier and enter autostrada you should already know WHICH autostrada is that, otherwise you're not so smart and you should not drive at all.

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In case I'm not making it clear: It's not the sign really that I don't like, it's using that sign for navigation. Hence why I think it's useless and may encourage dangerous behavior. It makes no sense for reassurance purposes either, because once you're close enough to read it you're either off the motorway or you've missed the chance to exit safely.
I don't know if you ever drove an Italian motorway, but I can assure you that those exit signs can be read from quite far. Of course one cannot rely just on them for navigational purposes (but I already said this earlier), but I find them useful. In some cases, for instance, they can be more easily readable than those on gantries. Think for instance on driving westbound during sunset: you may not be able to read signs on gantries due to sunlight, but those ones on exits are more protected.
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Old May 11th, 2011, 06:12 PM   #2442
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Good question. Maybe EU is bitching about signing E-roads, while the Italian government doesn't care about national numbers...
EU is not responsible for E-numbers; UNECE (a department of the United Nations) is. And they are pretty much a lame duck when it comes to enforcing the Geneva Convention on E-numbers.

The Geneva Convention does state that E-numbers must be signposted. It does does not explain how. You can build a good case around signposting them in the same manner as Italian domestic numbers are being signposted. In other words, on approach of routes only, but no longer once you are on that route. Doing so is definitely not worse than the German standard where E-numbers are only signposted on distance signs, which means that you may discover that you are no longer on an E-route only after the E-route turned off. And the Germans consistently get away with that approach.

But well, we agree on what Italy should do: work out a system and comply with it. If Mr. Berlusconi needs my assistance, he can send me a DM.
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Old May 12th, 2011, 10:11 PM   #2443
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...But people with a smaller familiarity with a road network, who just navigate on the basis of a map, are much more likely to look at route numbers ...
I agree.

Italian drivers don’t follow the road-numbers because our street signs do not give us this option (except perhaps on motorways, in the interchanges there are always the motorway number).
I photographed some directional signs in my town (Merano). There are never numbers, the focal points are the main alpine passes, who does not know the area understands very little.




In my opinion they should write also the numbers. Because of our signage, many Italians don’t like long trips on ordinary road, it is too probable miss the road.
I occasionally travel in Hungary. I do not know the Hungarian, I have difficult to read and remember the names of their cities and I follow well the road numbers, not only on motorways. Their system gives this possibility, our no.
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Old May 12th, 2011, 10:20 PM   #2444
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It is weird, indeed, though they use touristic signaling. They should use some sign to indicate SS38 and SS44
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Old May 13th, 2011, 05:12 AM   #2445
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It has to be something with the size of a country like Italy or Germany, both large countries, but when I´m at home in Hungary, everybody knows where M7 is or M3, you don´t have to mention Balaton or Nyíregyháza. The only thing you hear in a case of an accident/road work in radio broadcast is the direction like M7 towards Balaton/Bp. or M3 Nyíregyháza/Bp.
It doesn't have to do with size of a country. We aren't familiar with road numbers in Slovenia, just towns and names of motorways.
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Old May 13th, 2011, 09:21 AM   #2446
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Might be, but feks. Hungary doesn´t have names of motorways. We do not even say Balaton-motorway (M7) although it could be an obvious name.
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Old May 14th, 2011, 02:30 PM   #2447
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Why are the roads of Rome so much outdated?
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Old May 14th, 2011, 06:00 PM   #2448
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That's what I've noticed in Google Street View as well. Motorways in Rome are really crappy.
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Old May 14th, 2011, 06:05 PM   #2449
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Are you referring to motorways or urban thoroughfares?
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Old May 14th, 2011, 06:25 PM   #2450
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Oops, looks like just the end of A91 is crappy, sorry.
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Old May 14th, 2011, 06:40 PM   #2451
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Yup, the end of the A91 is a nightmare, with the infamous viadotto della Magliana.
Apart from that, motorways in Rome are in a pretty good shape, including the urban section of the A24 (which is basically the only motorway to reach Central Rome) and the GRA ringroad. And they also are toll-free.

With urban main roads, which fall under the municipality's domain, it's different story. Potholes and decaying roadbeds are extremely common on most roads, although it was even worse in the past and there are nevertheless a few roads in remarkably good conditions (such as via Cristoforo Colombo, the main link between Rome and the sea). This is due to the fact Rome has a very large territory and population but the same powers and financing as any other of the 8,000 municipalities of the country, or at least this is what politicians say.
However the status of the city is currently being reformed into a special metropolitan municipality with enlarged powers, so we'll see how things will evolve.
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Old May 15th, 2011, 03:14 AM   #2452
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There are still some interesting works going on there, like the Tiburtina viaduct replacement, some underground parking facilities (sounds mundane, but Roma lacks street parking and, as an ancient city full of ruins, every excavation yields many antique art crafts) and so.

What they really need to do away is with the limited traffic zone in downtown. That annoys me to my head.
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Old May 15th, 2011, 10:12 AM   #2453
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Roma lacks street parking
Nearly all European cities were built centuries or millennia ago, before the invasion of cars. Thankfully no (sub)urbaist has destroyed them to build parkings...
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Old May 15th, 2011, 11:12 PM   #2454
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very interesting
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Old May 15th, 2011, 11:55 PM   #2455
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Federicoft View Post
Yup, the end of the A91 is a nightmare, with the infamous viadotto della Magliana.
Apart from that, motorways in Rome are in a pretty good shape, including the urban section of the A24 (which is basically the only motorway to reach Central Rome) and the GRA ringroad. And they also are toll-free.

With urban main roads, which fall under the municipality's domain, it's different story. Potholes and decaying roadbeds are extremely common on most roads, although it was even worse in the past and there are nevertheless a few roads in remarkably good conditions (such as via Cristoforo Colombo, the main link between Rome and the sea). This is due to the fact Rome has a very large territory and population but the same powers and financing as any other of the 8,000 municipalities of the country, or at least this is what politicians say.
However the status of the city is currently being reformed into a special metropolitan municipality with enlarged powers, so we'll see how things will evolve.
Roman streets are in bad shape because Rome - as any italian city - is inefficiently managed AND has too few powers and indipendent financial means.

This is true for Rome and for any other large italian city. The size of the comune has nothing to do with it
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Old May 16th, 2011, 12:11 AM   #2456
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The size of the municipality has of course very much to do with it, it is possibly the no.1 reason behind the poor condition of roads in Rome.

A larger territory means longer distances, thus a longer road network to mantain compared to a more compact city with the same inhabitants. For instance, Rome has twice as many inhabitants as Milan but its territory is around eight times as big.
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Old May 16th, 2011, 12:16 AM   #2457
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It's better to have cars parked in parking garages than littered around on sidewalks, pedestrian crossings etc. which is often the case in old European cities. Some might find this to be a charming kind of chaos, but imagine how much better you could enjoy these old cities if all the cars could park underground or in multi-level garages..
the problem is that underground garages shouldn't be so much more expensive then regular street parking.
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Old May 16th, 2011, 10:39 AM   #2458
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Probably true for many places, but in Central Rome everything that goes into the ground is bound to be expensive. Archeological reasons.
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Old May 16th, 2011, 03:07 PM   #2459
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Originally Posted by Federicoft View Post
The size of the municipality has of course very much to do with it, it is possibly the no.1 reason behind the poor condition of roads in Rome.

A larger territory means longer distances, thus a longer road network to mantain compared to a more compact city with the same inhabitants. For instance, Rome has twice as many inhabitants as Milan but its territory is around eight times as big.
most of which is nice fields very hard to maintain...farmers have to tend them continously in order to get their wheat.

The city itself which is in real need of management is more or less in scale with Milan or Turin or Naples. There are some differences but they do not justify and difference in maintainance.

In fact Naples is very compact and dense AND poorly maintained. The same can be said in many cases also for Milan (with some slight difference with Rome and Naples, but not too much)

The problem of Rome - and any other italian city which is more or less in the same condition when compared to other european cities - is of lack of their own managed financial means and the inefficiency of PA in Italy
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Old May 16th, 2011, 04:41 PM   #2460
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They are not in the same scale at all. Distances in Rome are much greater than in any other city in Italy.

Just an example out of many
http://goo.gl/maps/0ItX

50 km between two urban neighborhoouds, without leaving the borders of the municipality.
You don't even come close to that anywhere in the country. And yes, this has definitely an impact on road maintenance, amongst many other things.
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