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Old May 27th, 2011, 10:19 PM   #2481
lucaf1
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Italian road signs is potentially good but badly implemented. For example signs indicating exits of the motorways are green ... But they should be blue (or white)...
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Old May 27th, 2011, 10:35 PM   #2482
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Furthermore the Highway Code was enacted in 1992. That law provides that the Ministry gives off other regulations (about the use of direction signals => so the question of the arrows)*. Well ... The Highway Code next year celebrates 20 years (2012 => the end of the world )... The regulations have yet to be promulgated!

For example those signals are part of the Highway Code:



But the image does not specify one thing: the right lane is a normal lane or an exit lane?


*Con circolari del Ministro dei lavori pubblici, da pubblicare sulla Gazzetta Ufficiale della Repubblica, sono esemplificate le soluzioni segnaletiche di dettaglio per le aree di svincolo, di servizio o di parcheggio, per le stazioni autostradali, per l'avvio alle autostrade, nonché per particolari soluzioni segnaletiche anche relative ad altre strade.
Art. 127 comma 16 del Regolamento di Attuazione

Last edited by lucaf1; May 27th, 2011 at 10:42 PM.
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Old May 27th, 2011, 11:04 PM   #2483
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Originally Posted by lucaf1 View Post
But the image does not specify one thing: the right lane is a normal lane or an exit lane?
Yep. And likewise for Fig. 252: is the middle lane a lane that will turn off shortly to Milano Centro or is it actually a sign for the same direction as the left lane? If that sign was used on the Tangenziale Ovest - A7 intersection, I could understand its use. The way this figure is actually used as an advance directional sign for the next exit five kilometers down the road is strange to me.
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Old May 27th, 2011, 11:23 PM   #2484
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Originally Posted by Maxx☢Power View Post
I remember being very confused by exit signage the first time I drove in Italy. It always looks like the rightmost lane is going to end at the exit, but it doesn't. Doesn't take long to get used to, but it's weird.

So sometimes at the exits near the border crossings (Brenner and Trieste) I saw foreigners they moving unnecessarily in the left lane.

In practice, the confusion is great:
2 lanes, an straight arrow:
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
A21 Alessandria - Tortona

1.
image hosted on flickr

ch 852 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr
by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


2 lanes, 2 straight arrows:
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Originally Posted by Schwarzpunkt View Post
15.
1 lane, 2 straight arrows (porto turistico):
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Originally Posted by x-type View Post


What do you think? We are following some laws or is all is purely random?

Last edited by Schwarzpunkt; May 27th, 2011 at 11:56 PM.
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Old May 27th, 2011, 11:27 PM   #2485
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A few posts back, your own countryman Schwarzpunkt seems to disagree on last-minute lane changes.
One thing that is largely true with Italians is that they (we) almost never use indicators when changing lane. But maybe for this reason we (almost) never change direction abruptly at the last minute.

One thing I noticed with Germans is that they always use indicators when turning, but it seems like this justifies them to cut your way. Rightmost lanes in Autobahnen are really dangerous: people coming from acceleration ramps turn on their magic indicators and one second later, ready or not, here they come, cutting across your path and making you brake. Maybe that's the reason why nobody in Germany drives in the rightmost lane.

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Be honest, the signs are counter-intuitive. A three-year old gets the picture that a falling arrow above one lane forms a connection between the message above that arrow and the lane underneath it. And thus also what first-timers think when they first see Italian gantry signage.

The fact that Italians do not have problems with the signs as they are is because they have enough experience to have instinctively started to ignore the arrows. I as a non-Italian have sufficient experience to do that too. But it's always better to not rely on that type of experience. Where you can, rely on the intuition of a three-year old.
You may be right. It's just that I don't see how "Italian signage is very low standard with respect to other nations", as ChrisZwolle stated. Again, I said in another thread, there are many things in German signage that I do not understand or that I feel "lacking", first of all the generic "Ausfahrt" sign at exits rather than the exit name. For me this is absurd, but I never dare to say "German signage is substandard". It's just about differences, what's good to them is not good to me, and evidently it's vice versa.
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Old May 27th, 2011, 11:43 PM   #2486
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From my recent experience I did not find Italian motorway signs so much confusing.
Last weekend I was in Rome, being a company to my wife on her business trip. Because of our decision to go to Pompeii by car at Monday 23rd and return the same day, I had to rent a car on Sunday 22nd afternoon. Therefore I had a plenty of time to go to Villa Hadriana on the Sunday, which I did. Because there is no explicite sign for Tivoli archaeologic site on the GRA, I decided to use the SS5 (Via Tiburtina). I found the Villa without problem. On the return, I used the A24 and went back to the GRA without problem. Being there, vertical signs showed a delay in direction south, so I decided to avoid this delay on GRA through Viale Palmiro Togliatti and after that I got back to the GRA.
At Monday, we had no problem to find the A1dir, drive to Napoli, find the A3 to Salerno and finally the exit to Pompeii, which is clearly marked, in spite of the fact that this part of A3 is being widened from 2x2 to 2x3. On the return, we again entered into a delay after the Frosinone exit, but this time I decided to stay on the motorway. We passed some 12 km in about 45 minutes, to find that the delay is caused by the road works: on an exit the 2x3 is temporarilly narrowed to 2x2.
I must admit that the most Italian drivers, lorry drivers included, obey the speed limit of 130 km/h, probably because the Tutor (which is in fact the Inquisitor, because we saw a police car catching the speeder). I propose that on the flat parts of Italian motorway network with 2x3 lanes (per example the A1 from Roma to Napoli) the speed limit can be set up to 150 km/h.
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Old May 28th, 2011, 12:09 AM   #2487
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Fortunately our Motorways have also many positive aspects (Draining asphalt, variable message signs, excellent pavement quality ...) .
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Old May 28th, 2011, 01:59 AM   #2488
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Originally Posted by darko06 View Post
I must admit that the most Italian drivers, lorry drivers included, obey the speed limit of 130 km/h, probably because the Tutor (which is in fact the Inquisitor, because we saw a police car catching the speeder). I propose that on the flat parts of Italian motorway network with 2x3 lanes (per example the A1 from Roma to Napoli) the speed limit can be set up to 150 km/h.
The Tutor is just an amazing feature IMO. It severely cut overspeed of the most dangerous type (the guy on a fast car thinking he's got entitled to move 60km/h faster than everybody else, tailgating and so).

As for 150km/h: the law already authorizes it, but no sector has had the limit raised yet.
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Old May 28th, 2011, 07:45 AM   #2489
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Fortunately our Motorways have also many positive aspects (Draining asphalt, variable message signs, excellent pavement quality ...) .
Somehow I forgot to mention draining asphalt, to drive on it during the rainstorm was a very pleasure experience to me.
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Old May 28th, 2011, 09:49 AM   #2490
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...I must admit that the most Italian drivers, lorry drivers included, obey the speed limit of 130 km/h,...
lorry (overall weight more than 12t) drivers must drive at 80 km/h on motorways. I mean, they should.
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Old May 28th, 2011, 01:21 PM   #2491
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lorry (overall weight more than 12t) drivers must drive at 80 km/h on motorways. I mean, they should.
The problem, AFAIK, is that Tutor cannot automatically access a database of plates to determine whether a vehicle is a truck, car, trailer, motorbike.
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Old May 28th, 2011, 02:06 PM   #2492
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There are many things in German signage that I do not understand or that I feel "lacking", first of all the generic "Ausfahrt" sign at exits rather than the exit name. For me this is absurd, but I never dare to say "German signage is substandard". It's just about differences, what's good to them is not good to me, and evidently it's vice versa.
You cannot reduce all differences in signposting to culture. For one, in Italy you would have signage as per the Rules posted earlier, you have signage as they do it on Tangenziali and then you have the differences between the various motorway operators. In your approach, they all do what's good for Italians. So why the differences? Eventually, signposting is only partially about culture and it has a fairly large objective component in it. It is ridiculous to look at the small route number shields in Italy and then say "it's culture, don't blame us if you cannot read it."

In respect of Ausfahrt or focal points, you see that the majority of countries in Europe and beyond, for all their cultural differences, do not follow the Italian approach of repeating the focal points of the exit. For a very objective reason: it can be a form of reassurance at best and therefore has limited added value. It almost ties in with the remainder of the exit signage. The clearer that is, the less you need the reassurance at the actual split.
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Old May 28th, 2011, 02:51 PM   #2493
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You cannot reduce all differences in signposting to culture. For one, in Italy you would have signage as per the Rules posted earlier, you have signage as they do it on Tangenziali and then you have the differences between the various motorway operators. In your approach, they all do what's good for Italians. So why the differences? Eventually, signposting is only partially about culture and it has a fairly large objective component in it. It is ridiculous to look at the small route number shields in Italy and then say "it's culture, don't blame us if you cannot read it."
It is culture, because Italians don't give a bleep about road numbers. We never use them, we don't even know them. Every autostrada, every superstrada, even most statale highways have a proper name and everybody in Italy use that name instead of numbers. Please get informed.

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In respect of Ausfahrt or focal points, you see that the majority of countries in Europe and beyond, for all their cultural differences, do not follow the Italian approach of repeating the focal points of the exit. For a very objective reason: it can be a form of reassurance at best and therefore has limited added value. It almost ties in with the remainder of the exit signage. The clearer that is, the less you need the reassurance at the actual split.
I don't care if all of Europe don't follow Italian signage. It's their way, we have it our way. You say "it is just a form of reassurance". This is maybe valid for Germans, Dutch, whoever you want, but not for us Italians, and you cannot say "it is like that", as if it must be valid for the whole world, cause it's not.

For foreigners, Italians signs are confusing. For Italians, foreign countries' signs are confusing, in different ways. So please stop your attitude "we're better than you". We are different, drive differently, navigate thru roads and signs differently. End of story.
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Old May 28th, 2011, 03:01 PM   #2494
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It is culture, because Italians don't give a bleep about road numbers. We never use them, we don't even know them. Every autostrada, every superstrada, even most statale highways have a proper name and everybody in Italy use that name instead of numbers. Please get informed.
It may be cultural that Italians do not rely on road numbers, yet in all their wisdom they do place them on signs. Not as much as many foreigners would like them to, but that's not what I want to discuss. Where the Italians elect to signpost a road number, you have to assume that they do want to actually enable people to read it. Otherwise the choice would have been made not to signpost the number at all.

So when route numbers are not signposted at all, it may be culture (even though it's clearly nurture not nature, and thus always capable of being changed). When route numbers are signposted in an illegible way, it is substandard. Every cultural defence on that is truly ridiculous. End of story indeed.
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Old May 28th, 2011, 03:11 PM   #2495
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It may be cultural that Italians do not rely on road numbers, yet in all their wisdom they do place them on signs. Not as much as many foreigners would like them to, but that's not what I want to discuss. Where the Italians elect to signpost a road number, you have to assume that they do want to actually enable people to read it. Otherwise the choice would have been made not to signpost the number at all.
Apparently foreigners 1- cannot follow directions, 2- are too blind to read small numbers. Please, stay out of our roads, then.

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So when route numbers are not signposted at all, it may be culture. When route numbers are signposted in an illegible way, it is substandard. Every cultural defence on that is truly ridiculous. End of story indeed.
Ridiculous is that every town in Germany is called "Ausfahrt", because it is the only thing signed at exits!!! Oh my god!
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Old May 28th, 2011, 03:20 PM   #2496
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Well, the worst thing of Italian exits is that they are unnumbered. So, how in hell I can know where is exit Termoli? Wouldn't be better exit 477?
(I picked a random exit from my map...)
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Old May 28th, 2011, 03:24 PM   #2497
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Well, the worst thing of Italian exits is that they are unnumbered. So, how in hell I can know where is exit Termoli? Wouldn't be better exit 477?
(I picked a random exit from my map...)
If I have to go to Termoli, or a town near Termoli, I'll take the exit Termoli. Why should I care about its number? I don't have to go to "city 477".
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Old May 28th, 2011, 03:41 PM   #2498
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When route numbers are signposted in an illegible way, it is substandard.
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Old May 28th, 2011, 04:09 PM   #2499
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Stop using the "that's just the way we do things, it's a cultural difference" argument, it's silly and makes no sense. Sometimes one way of doing something is just better.
Fascist sentence.

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Forcing your children to get married to someone they've never seen at age 12 may be part of a culture, but it's also wrong.
Stupid and out of place sentence.

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Would adding exit numbers make it more difficult for Italians to find their way on the roads? No. Would it make it easier for everyone? Probably.

Would using route numbers, in a way you don't have to squint as you pass under the sign just to be able to read it, make it more difficult for Italians to find their way? No. Would it make it easier for everyone? Probably.

Would making overhead signs fit the actual situation on the lanes below make it more difficult for Italians to find their way? No. Would it make it easier for everyone? Probably.
It's expensive. If you foreigner would pay for new signs, since we don't need them, you're welcome to do that.

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If nobody ever improved something because "it works the way it is", there would be no progress.
Progress is inventing something that wasn't there, or fixing something that doesn't work, not fixing something that already works.
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Old May 28th, 2011, 04:15 PM   #2500
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Apparently foreigners cannot follow directions, 2- are too blind to read small numbers. Please, stay out of our roads, then.
Don't get me going on directions. Imagine that you are heading for the Lago Maggiore. You have prepared yourself by looking at your map and working out that you need to go to the A26. But that number is either not printed on signs or printed too small (by objective standards, don't be silly). So is there anything that could have prepared you for the fact that you need to follow directions to a 1000-inhabitant town instead of to sizeable towns like Arona, Stresa, Domodossola or even a well-known pass route like the Simplon?
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