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Old May 28th, 2011, 04:19 PM   #2501
g.spinoza
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
Don't get me going on directions. Imagine that you are heading for the Lago Maggiore. You have prepared yourself by looking at your map and working out that you need to go to the A26. But that number is either not printed on signs or printed too small (by objective standards, don't be silly). So is there anything that could have prepared you for the fact that you need to follow directions to a 1000-inhabitant town instead of to sizeable towns like Arona, Stresa, Domodossola or even a well-known pass route like the Simplon?
This is because you rely on the name "A26". If you, like we Italians do, rely on its termini names "Genova Voltri-Gravellona Toce", you know you should go towards Gravellona Toce. I fail to see the difficulty on that. By the way, even if you rely on the name "a26" you could navigate your way to the motorway but then you have to know which direction you must take, and you must know "Gravellona Toce". And I would be very surprised if Arona, Verbania or Domodossola weren't signed. I'm sure they are.

And I am not being silly, I've never had problems reading numbers on motorway signs, I don't know why you have so much troubles.
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Old May 28th, 2011, 04:34 PM   #2502
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
This is because you rely on the name "A26". If you, like we Italians do, rely on its termini names "Genova Voltri-Gravellona Toce", you know you should go towards Gravellona Toce. I fail to see the difficulty on that.
Lots of maps do not even contain Gravellona Toce. Everyone without prior knowledge would probably have figured Stresa or Domodossola as terminus. And next thing you are in Milan, looking for the termini called Napoli and Trieste. Which you will not find on any sign.

Using directions only works when the directions signposted match reasonable assumptions or where you have prior knowledge of the towns that will be signposted. Some Italians will have prior knowledge of Gravellona Toce being the terminus of the A26 and thus the focal of choice. But I doubt whether the average person in Rome or further South will be able to reproduce. And here you run into the key function of signposting: supporting people who do NOT know by heart. Your position is based on the idea that people will know by heart (except if they run into a sign that says Ausfahrt). In any event it is good to know that your position is not the position that most Italians in this discussion share.

Besides, I already pay for signage on Italian motorways. When they replace the signs from my toll money when a replacement is due anyway, I fail to see the additional cost of a road number that is legible. And if cost is still an issue, let´s get rid of the information posted on the kilometer signs in the median.
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Old May 28th, 2011, 04:48 PM   #2503
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
Lots of maps do not even contain Gravellona Toce. Everyone without prior knowledge would probably have figured Stresa or Domodossola as terminus. And next thing you are in Milan, looking for the termini called Napoli and Trieste. Which you will not find on any sign.

Using directions only works when the directions signposted match reasonable assumptions or where you have prior knowledge of the towns that will be signposted. Some Italians will have prior knowledge of Gravellona Toce being the terminus of the A26 and thus the focal of choice. But I doubt whether the average person in Rome or further South will be able to reproduce. And here you run into the key function of signposting: supporting people who do NOT know by heart. Your position is based on the idea that people will know by heart (except if they run into a sign that says Ausfahrt).
You may be right about that, but think about this. There are basic information you have to know, if you must go from Milan to Naples. Namely, that in the same direction there are Rome, Florence and Bologna. You cannot expect that every city is signed everywhere, there would be a big mess. I mean, here in Germany I cannot expect that Hamburg is signed in Munich. You have to know that Nuremberg, Kassel and Hannover are in the way. I agree that signing only "Gravellona Toce" is not very smart, but as I said I'm sure it's not the only city signed in that direction. I don't have any proof, though, because I've never driven there.

Quote:
In any event it is good to know that your position is not the position that most Italians in this discussion share.
I don't know what to say, I know that many Italians like to bash their country at will. I like that too, but for things I really think are wrong, not just because it's stereotype or because of something someone once said. It is not true, for instance, that Italians change lane frantically and cut your way; it is true, however, that they don't use indicators, but most of the times they change lane only if it's safe.

I don't think that Italian signage, on average, is worse that in other countries. Maybe it's only my impression, but I like it.

Quote:
Besides, I already pay for signage on Italian motorways. When they replace the signs from my toll money when a replacement is due anyway, I fail to see the additional cost of a road number that is legible. And if cost is still an issue, let´s get rid of the information posted on the kilometer signs in the median.
You kidding. I think that signs in the median are among the most useful signs. See, we see things differently, but that doesn't mean one is wrong and the other is right.
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Old May 28th, 2011, 04:56 PM   #2504
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Originally Posted by Maxx☢Power View Post
You're one step away from invoking Godwin's law now, so I'll stop arguing with you. It's clear you're not willing to look at things objectively and for some reason take this personally.
Nothing of the sort, but replying to someone who says "you're wrong and I'm right", it's not my kind of a discussion.

Last edited by g.spinoza; May 28th, 2011 at 05:03 PM.
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Old May 28th, 2011, 05:25 PM   #2505
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@g.spinoza "...like we Italians do..."

Italians are 60,000,000. So the opinions are at least 2
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Old May 28th, 2011, 07:30 PM   #2506
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In fact I was not talking about me. I know autostrade number and can navigate using them. I just said that on average, Italians do not. And you can't deny this, because if Italians use routinely autostrade numbers for navigation, and such numbers were really so bad signed, there would be an uprising by Italians demanding "better road signs". But there is none.
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Old May 28th, 2011, 09:11 PM   #2507
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Chicken-and-egg-story. Nobody will start learning road numbers if you cannot use them anyway. If nobody knows them, you decide that there is no reason to signpost them, and there you will have proof for your point. The consequence? Eternal standstill.

An uprise on road signs never occurred. Had the powers waited for an uprise, then France would still have been in its Michelin-signs, the UK would have been pre-Worboys and no country would ever have started to signpost road numbers let alone exit numbers. Was that process even driven by complaints from drivers? I bet not. All changes in signage were, and it will in the future remain, road engineer-driven projects. Because they see forms of improvement that the ordinary men in the street do not. And because they know that, even though nobody in the streets ever thinks of using a particular new feature, newly introduced features on signs tend to be appreciated and used a few years down the line. If someone had asked me 25 years ago about exit numbers, I would have said that I saw little use in them. But when they came, they turned out to be really helpful.

It's not only a road thing. What would you have said if someone had asked you in 1990 about the various things you now do on the internet?
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Old May 29th, 2011, 10:24 AM   #2508
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Ok I lost all interest in this discussion. Think whatever you please, I don't care. Please let's move on.
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Old May 29th, 2011, 07:23 PM   #2509
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I read that Variante di Valico, the new/additional Apennines' transposition on A1 (Milano-Napoli), between Bologna and Firezne, will likely open a few months ahead of schedule in 2013.

Italy has only 8 highway trans-Apennines crossings, and this is certainly the most important. The new works (a combination of widening and new ROW (creating a 2+2+2+2, non-aligned design, but also 3 (downhill) +2 (uphill) + 2(uphill) elsewhere) were planned since the first round of public tender for private operators of Italian network, in 1997.

Moreover, Austostrade per l'Italia announced it keeps reducing its fatality rate on highways under its control, not to accident, injuries and fatality rates that are below those of France, whose highway's design, pattern of use and monitoring are similar to those of Italy.
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Old June 1st, 2011, 10:13 PM   #2510
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Is there any news about open-road electronic toll to be implemented in Italy?

I read the other day article about Slovenian systems, and head of our motorway agency said, that they are talking with Austrian, Croatian and Italian authorities about compatibility between those countries electronic tolls. As Austria already has microwave based electronic toll collection working for years maybe this will mean similar system to be introduced in Italy?
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Old June 1st, 2011, 10:24 PM   #2511
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In Italy we have the Telepass system... every toll station has some lanes dedicated to it.
Cars with this tool installed on their front glass can pass through the yellow lanes without stopping at the toll station (just slowing down):





In the future some new motorways (still u/c) should adopt a different free-flow system based on an electronic plate reader, I guess (but I'm absolutely not sure of it)...
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Old June 1st, 2011, 11:29 PM   #2512
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Isn't the intention that the A12 between Livorno and Civitavecchia (i.e. the part that is to be constructed over the next few years) will be tolled with an electronic free-flow system?
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Old June 2nd, 2011, 10:41 AM   #2513
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mauz® View Post
In Italy we have the Telepass system... every toll station has some lanes dedicated to it.
I was thinking about free-flow system. Isn't ANAS something experimenting with?
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Old June 2nd, 2011, 11:05 AM   #2514
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May 2011 was the deadline for the implementation of free-flow toll system on "raccordi autostradali", autostrada A3 and GRA. As far as I know, nothing has been done.
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Old June 14th, 2011, 07:27 PM   #2515
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Official number and name: SS280 dei due mari

Official classification: strada extraurbana (no source if SS280 is "strada extraurbana secondaria" or "strada extraurbana principale"); by the way SS280 is surely not a motorway (according to the law "D.L. 29 ottobre 1999, n.461 (Gazzetta Ufficiale n. 288 del 09-12-1999)" and according to the nomenclature (SSxx and not Axx))

Official speed limit: 110 km/h (so SS280 isn't a "strada extraurbana secondaria" but a "strada extraurbana principale" aka superstrada)



All right?

NO!

Motorway sign:

Green road sign:

but also blue sign:



Last edited by lucaf1; June 14th, 2011 at 07:54 PM.
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Old June 16th, 2011, 12:34 PM   #2516
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Some new photos about
MESSINA | Freeway - Exit Giostra / Annunziata

http://maps.google.it/maps?q=svincol...N&hl=it&tab=wl


http://maps.google.it/maps?q=svincol...N&hl=it&tab=wl

who follow last discussion about knows what we talking about...

(By Trinacria Felix)


Quote:
Originally Posted by TRINACRIA FELIX View Post
AGGIORNAMENTO SITUAZIONE AVANZAMENTO LAVORI AL 03 GIUGNO 2011!

I lavori procedono sempre velocemente, lavorano anche oggi che è festivo per Messina!
E' stato innalzato sulle pile un altro tratto di impalcato e continua la posa in opera delle spallette per la sede stradale (foto 10 e 11).
Continua inoltre l'assemblaggio degli impalcati sul terreno per essere successivamente innalzati e messi sulle pile come si evince dalle foto.
Le pile continuano a crescere!

[IMG]http://i56.************/15foosm.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://i53.************/2iifibp.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i54.************/52fiwx.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://i56.************/a29pi1.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i56.************/ehmcjo.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://i53.************/107onx2.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i53.************/291zwue.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://i55.************/16ghqh4.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i56.************/2dkl2ch.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://i53.************/2nk0777.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i56.************/2lvbfjs.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://i55.************/353avxk.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i53.************/m8fsw0.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://i55.************/jj6w0o.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i56.************/ekos4l.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://i52.************/2rrup6u.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i55.************/2cginvq.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://i52.************/2zyx5k6.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i53.************/2mqvn9w.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://i55.************/2hf59mt.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i51.************/1116qo6.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://i53.************/wty3op.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i51.************/33dbjw4.jpg[/IMG]
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRINACRIA FELIX View Post
AGGIORNAMENTO SITUAZIONE AVANZAMENTO LAVORI AL 10 GIUGNO 2011!

In attesa di recuperare mia moglie dal mercato ho fatto il solito giro cantieri e mi sono intrattenuto in una piacevolissima discussione con quattro simpatici pensionati che si riuniscono e fanno anche loro il giro cantieri e che attendono da una vita la realizzazione degli svincoli e del Ponte sullo Stretto!
Purtroppo, a detta loro, ignoranti nell'uso del computer, hanno voluto lo stesso il sito di SSC!
I lavori procedono sempre velocemente, stanno completando le sedi in testa alle pile dove verranno appoggiati gli impalcati (foto 4).
Continua la posa in opera delle spallette per la sede stradale (foto 1).
Continua inoltre l'assemblaggio degli impalcati sul terreno per essere successivamente innalzati e messi sulle pile.
E' stata realizzata una struttura (foto 6-8-9-10) che servirà forse come base di appoggio degli impalcati prima di essere innalzati.
Le pile intanto continuano a crescere!!

[IMG]http://i51.************/35a5hjs.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://i54.************/28ingac.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i53.************/330vbqq.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://i52.************/301ouhv.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i55.************/dlm17d.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://i54.************/2v0gbb9.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i54.************/n4dstk.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://i56.************/1zp2k36.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i53.************/358ur14.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://i51.************/21d09sl.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i51.************/vnm0p1.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://i53.************/10wnqzn.jpg[/IMG]
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Ponte sullo Stretto di Messina - Prima parte
Ponte sullo Stretto di Messina - Seconda parte
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Old June 17th, 2011, 08:06 PM   #2517
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A24 x GRA interchange in Roma (project design)

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Old June 18th, 2011, 03:23 PM   #2518
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Here are the plans for A31 north: http://www.ladige.it/inc/class/easy_...valdastico.pdf

The preferred one is T4, but it is unlikely to be built.
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Old June 18th, 2011, 03:27 PM   #2519
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Yes, Trentino administrators do not want it, and they have the last word on the matter.
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Old June 18th, 2011, 03:34 PM   #2520
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Here are the plans for A31 north: http://www.ladige.it/inc/class/easy_...valdastico.pdf

The preferred one is T4, but it is unlikely to be built.
Which one do you think will be chosen?
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