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Old November 12th, 2011, 04:39 PM   #2881
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Satyricon84 View Post
It should, cause they should rebuild the SS35 in that part. Actually the SS 35 is a 4 lane street with 80 Km/h maximum speed
Isn't the speed limit 110 km/h like on other expressways? I've driven twice on it and I don't remember any special speed-limit signs.
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Old November 12th, 2011, 04:43 PM   #2882
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USELESS?!?!!? Are you fooling us?

Pedemontana is one of the MOST NEEDED arterials in the whole area!! It is blooding necessary and IMHO it will also be undersized for its purpose.

All of this DESPITE all the possible improvements of the public means of transports. Why? Because it won't serve only local traffic, because not all the traffic is directed towards Milano, because not all the traffic can be transferred to the public means of transports (you can't fit a truck in a metro line), because the public transport can't take charge of ALL the traffic going on routes.

And finally because your point it's not "don't build new routes, just improve the public means of transport". Your point is "don't build a ******* ANYTHING near (400 metres... ) my home!"

This is what you say of the possibility of building a RAILWAY, which purpose is to put people and/or freights on a train instead of leaving them on roads on "polluting vehicles".

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Originally Posted by Satyricon84 View Post
[...]

3) cause this is what they want to built, and this means only noise, traffic, pollution in a residential zone where is already too much busy during the rush hour. It will be built a railtrail too next to the highway. With a station for goods or something like that. It means only much more trucks


[...]
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Old November 12th, 2011, 05:02 PM   #2883
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Satyricon84 View Post
To rebuild it, they have to close the superstrada SS35. It means that around 4000 vehicles/hour will be deviated on the secondary streets.

This video (unfortunately I just found in italian) shows what could happen when the Pedemontana will be working in the part near Bovisio Masciago
Interesting

They suggest even to build a 'shortcut' via Seregno, which I think it was the most sensible thing to do
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Old November 12th, 2011, 05:02 PM   #2884
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Originally Posted by Mauz® View Post
(you can't fit a truck in a metro line)
Wrong.


http://www.saurabhlall.com/2010/12/truck-on-tracks.html
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Old November 12th, 2011, 05:11 PM   #2885
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Whoah... that's HUUUUUGE! Which metro is it?
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Old November 12th, 2011, 05:12 PM   #2886
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Geez, that video is done by a left-wing, old-minded folks. It's a NIMBY video.

Its secondary title reads in Italian: "a proven useless traffic disaster"
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Old November 12th, 2011, 05:13 PM   #2887
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Whoah... that's HUUUUUGE! Which metro is it?
Probably Washington, but most subways have some sort of these vehicles adapted to perform work.
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Old November 12th, 2011, 05:17 PM   #2888
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Geez, that video is done by a left-wing, old-minded folks. It's a NIMBY video.

Its secondary title reads in Italian: "a proven useless traffic disaster"
It could be a NIMBY video, but surely point out an interesting matter.
I don't like the superposition of Pedemontana an Mi-Meda motorway. And I think they will have to build a stretch from Desio to Meda, through Seregno to avoid the SS35.

Without this traffic can easily collapse IMO
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Old November 12th, 2011, 05:22 PM   #2889
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Yes, it's Washington Metro's Red Line in Bethesda, Maryland.
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Old November 12th, 2011, 05:30 PM   #2890
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GENIUS LOCI View Post
It could be a NIMBY video, but surely point out an interesting matter.
I don't like the superposition of Pedemontana an Mi-Meda motorway. And I think they will have to build a stretch from Desio to Meda, through Seregno to avoid the SS35.

Without this traffic can easily collapse IMO
I totally agree!
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Old November 12th, 2011, 05:53 PM   #2891
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USELESS?!?!!? Are you fooling us?

Pedemontana is one of the MOST NEEDED arterials in the whole area!! It is blooding necessary and IMHO it will also be undersized for its purpose.
the investiment of € 4.115.000.000 (which surely will increase during works) for 87 Km of road + secondary roads doesn't justify the destruction of the territory. There are other roads which need an improvement cause they are high risk of incidents and overcrowded, like the SS342. Many kilometers north from the Pedemontana

Quote:
All of this DESPITE all the possible improvements of the public means of transports. Why? Because it won't serve only local traffic, because not all the traffic is directed towards Milano, because not all the traffic can be transferred to the public means of transports (you can't fit a truck in a metro line), because the public transport can't take charge of ALL the traffic going on routes.
The traffic just in transit of Milan is nothing comparating the traffic which goes to the town. It's enough to drive on A4 not in rush hour to have notice of it. In normal conditions there aren't queues. Trucks don't go on metro right, but could go on trains. Just in Italy only 9.9% of the goods go by train against 21% in Germany.

Quote:
And finally because your point it's not "don't build new routes, just improve the public means of transport". Your point is "don't build a ******* ANYTHING near (400 metres... ) my home!"
It could be also 2 Km far away, for me it's always an useless highway. It runs parallel 10 km far away from the A4, which sense it has? A sense could have if it was many kilometers north, linking directly Bergamo to Como and Chiasso. Like this also they could have built a tunnel under the A4 for transit traffic only. No need to expropriate houses and destroy fields and woods. I'm ready to bet, the Pedemontana will create more problems than benefits
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Old November 12th, 2011, 05:59 PM   #2892
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€ 4 billion for an 87-km semi-urban motorway is not that bad actually. It's about € 47 million per kilometer.
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Old November 12th, 2011, 06:05 PM   #2893
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Originally Posted by Verso View Post
Yes, it's Washington Metro's Red Line in Bethesda, Maryland.
[off topic]The second I saw that picture, I knew it was Washington....[end off topic]
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Old November 12th, 2011, 06:09 PM   #2894
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
€ 4 billion for an 87-km semi-urban motorway is not that bad actually. It's about € 47 million per kilometer.
This amount doesn't count of financial burdens. Included financial burdens is over 5 billions. And surely will increase during works...
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Old November 12th, 2011, 06:15 PM   #2895
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By the way, will they ever connect SS36 with A52/A4?
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Old November 12th, 2011, 06:22 PM   #2896
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Satyricon84 View Post
the investiment of € 4.115.000.000 (which surely will increase during works) for 87 Km of road + secondary roads doesn't justify the destruction of the territory. There are other roads which need an improvement cause they are high risk of incidents and overcrowded, like the SS342. Many kilometers north from the Pedemontana
First of all the investment is mainly PRIVATE! And then it's highly needed.
The REAL destruction of the territory is not caused by building of an highway. The REAL destruction of the territory is caused by thousands of houses built there instead of around te urban core of the Region.
The URBAN SPRAWL is the problem. If there wasn't urban sprawl we would have a lot of countryside outside of Milan.

But due to the existence and continuous improving of YOUR town and all the others in the surrounding we don't have a lot of countryside North of Milan. And moreover we NEED fast arterials going through it. The most populated and SPREADED a region is, the most it will need an improved system of routes going thorugh and around it.
Quote:
The traffic just in transit of Milan is nothing comparating the traffic which goes to the town. It's enough to drive on A4 not in rush hour to have notice of it. In normal conditions there aren't queues. Trucks don't go on metro right, but could go on trains. Just in Italy only 9.9% of the goods go by train against 21% in Germany.
WHAT?!?!?!?!?!!??

The A4 is the MAIN highway going East to West in Italy, connecting East Europe to Southern-West Europe.
The A8/A9 is the MAI highway going to Switzerland and the A7 and A1 are the MAIN highways going to Genoa and to the South in general. And all the traffic of these highways needs to pass THROUGH Milan in ored to connect to another one highway.

There is a lot of people, by example going from Eastern Italy toward Switzerland or from Eastern Italy towards Western Italy. Or from Switzerland twoards the South of Italy and viceversa. A nd a loto of different combinations.

All of this is PASSING TRAFFIC!!


And then... you say that trucks and freights can go on trains... But when the government proposes to build a railway for trucks/freights you're the FIRST against it.

In this thread, jus few posts ago you wrote: "It will be built a railtrail too next to the highway. With a station for goods or something like that. It means only much more trucks".

This is a totally NIMBY mindset.
Quote:
It could be also 2 Km far away, for me it's always an useless highway. It runs parallel 10 km far away from the A4, which sense it has? A sense could have if it was many kilometers north, linking directly Bergamo to Como and Chiasso. Like this also they could have built a tunnel under the A4 for transit traffic only. No need to expropriate houses and destroy fields and woods. I'm ready to bet, the Pedemontana will create more problems than benefits
The sense is that A4 is CONGESTED! And Pedemontana must DE-CONGEST a prt of it, taking charge of the part of traffic going East to North and viceversa.

And moreover the sense is that North of Milan we have a huge territory FULL of inhabitants and companies and everytihnig else. It means a lot of NEED OF COMMUNICATION AXES. It's impossible to bring metro lines in all of the towns, it's impossible to serve allof the territory with railways. This because of the URBAN SPRAWL! The little calm town you like so much to live is the REAL cause of the destruction of the territory because it consumes it.

Why did you bought a house there instead of near the city? Why did you contributed to the urban sprawl, paying someone for building/selling you a home there?
It is because of millions of houses like yours that we have no more countryside North of Milan e we need to build roads, railways and whatever else to serve the territory and it's impossible to have an efficient stystem of public means of transport on the whole territory.

Means of transports works good in a COMPACT city. Buses, metro lines, streetcars ecc need to drive on SHORT DISTANCES with high density of people around. That's the case o Milan city and the first surroundings (Cinisello, Paderno, Bresso, Monza ecc). But that's not the case of all the rest of the surroundings.
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Old November 12th, 2011, 06:24 PM   #2897
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
€ 4 billion for an 87-km semi-urban motorway is not that bad actually. It's about € 47 million per kilometer.
... for a difficult territory with a lot of interventions for noise and pollution abatement, tunnels, engineering difficulties etc.

All of this because Satyricon84 and millions of people like him live casually spreaded in the territory North of Milan.
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Old November 12th, 2011, 06:25 PM   #2898
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Why did Milano grew to the north much more than to the south?
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Old November 12th, 2011, 06:33 PM   #2899
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Originally Posted by Mauz® View Post
... for a difficult territory with a lot of interventions for noise and pollution abatement, tunnels, engineering difficulties etc.

All of this because Satyricon84 and millions of people like him live casually spreaded in the territory North of Milan.
It's not the blame of the citizens if the project is in late of over 40 years. Towns grew up and somewhere had to be built. And citizens living since many years don't have to pay cause you and all "let's-paved- all-what-we-find" want arrive '20 minutes earlier
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Old November 12th, 2011, 06:46 PM   #2900
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I don't know the proper historical reason.

By now one of the main reasons is that vast areas South of Milan are protected and its vocation is mainly agricultural. But I don't know much more... Surely in the Italian forum several people will be able to explain it better than me.

BTW I think that now, because most companies and services are located in the North, people tend to prefere living there. Going South of Milan is like going 1000 kms far from the city. The scenery totally changes in a while and you find yourself in the middle of countryside, with all the ongoing consequences (smaller towns, less services, mainly agriculture-related jobs, long distances, different climate etc)...
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