daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old November 12th, 2011, 06:47 PM   #2901
Satyricon84
Ice Road Metaller
 
Satyricon84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Monza
Posts: 2,724
Likes (Received): 110

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mauz® View Post
Why did you bought a house there instead of near the city? Why did you contributed to the urban sprawl, paying someone for building/selling you a home there?
It is because of millions of houses like yours that we have no more countryside North of Milan e we need to build roads, railways and whatever else to serve the territory and it's impossible to have an efficient stystem of public means of transport on the whole territory.
Why I had to buy near the city? Cause you live to live in the city doesn't mean everybody have to like. I would prefere to live into a chalet on the top of Everest than in a luxury flat in Milan! And this hood has been edificated between 70's and '80s, the cemetery instead is there since 1400. It's too comfort now to give blame to urban sprawl cause there's no space to build the highway. If it was built when it was projected now wouldn't be any problems. But it wasn't built so you can't pretend now to pass though houses with a caterpillar cause you say is needed
Satyricon84 no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old November 12th, 2011, 06:48 PM   #2902
GENIUS LOCI
No More Italian Mod
 
GENIUS LOCI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Milano
Posts: 35,322
Likes (Received): 11131

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Why did Milano grew to the north much more than to the south?
Traditionally South has ever been the countryside of Milan. Infact settlements were more on Northern part since the Middle Age.

Nowadays in Sothern Milan Province there is the Parco Agricolo Sud institution (Southern Agricultural Park) which is about 1000 skm large.
Pratically urbanization is almost stopped in the South
__________________
URBANFILE
GENIUS LOCI no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2011, 06:51 PM   #2903
Mauz®
Utonto
 
Mauz®'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Milano
Posts: 9,814
Likes (Received): 501

Quote:
Originally Posted by Satyricon84 View Post
It's not the blame of the citizens if the project is in late of over 40 years. Towns grew up and somewhere had to be built. And citizens living since many years don't have to pay cause you and all "let's-paved- all-what-we-find" want arrive '20 minutes earlier
If the project is on since 40 years ago here you are one reason more not to buy a home 400 metres from a projected highway.
Mauz® no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2011, 06:53 PM   #2904
GENIUS LOCI
No More Italian Mod
 
GENIUS LOCI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Milano
Posts: 35,322
Likes (Received): 11131

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mauz® View Post
BTW I think that now, because most companies and services are located in the North, people tend to prefere living there. Going South of Milan is like going 1000 kms far from the city. The scenery totally changes in a while and you find yourself in the middle of countryside, with all the ongoing consequences (smaller towns, less services, mainly agriculture-related jobs, long distances, different climate etc)...
...mosquitos

Anyway, many people bypassed the Parc and went to live more South in Pavia and Lodi's Provinces.
Infact in last decades their countrysides got urbanized a lot, mostly due to people coming from Milan (that hardly could find a house closer to the city in the South because of the parc)
__________________
URBANFILE
GENIUS LOCI no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2011, 06:55 PM   #2905
Satyricon84
Ice Road Metaller
 
Satyricon84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Monza
Posts: 2,724
Likes (Received): 110

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mauz® View Post
If the project is on since 40 years ago here you are one reason more not to buy a home 400 metres from a projected highway.
The project to build the highway is old of 40 years, not where it should pass. You know well what I meant.....
Satyricon84 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2011, 06:59 PM   #2906
Mauz®
Utonto
 
Mauz®'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Milano
Posts: 9,814
Likes (Received): 501

Quote:
Originally Posted by Satyricon84 View Post
Why I had to buy near the city? Cause you live to live in the city doesn't mean everybody have to like. I would prefere to live into a chalet on the top of Everest than in a luxury flat in Milan! And this hood has been edificated between 70's and '80s, the cemetery instead is there since 1400. It's too comfort now to give blame to urban sprawl cause there's no space to build the highway. If it was built when it was projected now wouldn't be any problems. But it wasn't built so you can't pretend now to pass though houses with a caterpillar cause you say is needed
If there was non sprawl, we would need no highway.

If they built it 40 years ago, now your beloved countryside would no more be countryside. And the price of a small vill would be now the price of a flat.

If you contribute to the urban sprawl of the metropolitan area of Milan, with all the consequences it causes, than don't complain if the territory needs to be infrastructured.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GENIUS LOCI View Post
Traditionally South has ever been the countryside of Milan. Infact settlements were more on Northern part since the Middle Age.

Nowadays in Sothern Milan Province there is the Parco Agricolo Sud institution (Southern Agricultural Park) which is about 1000 skm large.
Pratically urbanization is almost stopped in the South
A little scheme of the area South of Milan and towns making part of it...

Mauz® no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2011, 07:03 PM   #2907
GENIUS LOCI
No More Italian Mod
 
GENIUS LOCI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Milano
Posts: 35,322
Likes (Received): 11131

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
By the way, will they ever connect SS36 with A52/A4?
I often mentioned in this thread the project of Monza tunnel which will transform that last track of SS36 in a freeway, connecting finally A52 and A4 directly without any crossings and traffic lights

It is currently u/c and works will last still a couple of years



A4 interchange...


http://www.urbanfile.it/index.asp?ID=3&SID=53

..operative yet

Quote:
Originally Posted by TONYBILD View Post
aperta la nuova rotonda Dei Gracchi






The thread on Italian forum http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=530083
__________________
URBANFILE
GENIUS LOCI no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2011, 07:09 PM   #2908
Satyricon84
Ice Road Metaller
 
Satyricon84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Monza
Posts: 2,724
Likes (Received): 110

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mauz® View Post
If there was non sprawl, we would need no highway.
Infact we don't need. You need


Quote:
If they built it 40 years ago, now your beloved countryside would no more be countryside. And the price of a small vill would be now the price of a flat.
but it wasn't built. and we lived well the same for 40 years

Quote:
If you contribute to the urban sprawl of the metropolitan area of Milan, with all the consequences it causes, than don't complain if the territory needs to be infrastructured.
Following your reasonment: if you contribute to crowd the city, you need to build in the metropolitan area. Less people no needs of other infrastructured
Satyricon84 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2011, 07:21 PM   #2909
to
Pro Torino-Lyon TGV
 
to's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Torino
Posts: 83
Likes (Received): 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Why did Milano grew to the north much more than to the south?
Because during the industrial revolution the pedemontan area not only in Lombardy but also in Piedmont and Veneto were able to have enough hydropower energy to support the grow. At that time production of electrical energy and their consuption had to be in the same area. The consequences of that is the pedemontan urban area in northern Milan.

Cheers
to no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2011, 07:24 PM   #2910
Mauz®
Utonto
 
Mauz®'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Milano
Posts: 9,814
Likes (Received): 501

Quote:
Originally Posted by Satyricon84 View Post
Infact we don't need. You need
but it wasn't built. and we lived well the same for 40 years
Maybe you don't, but the majority of people do. And the fact it wasn't built 40 years ago means nothing. Maybe also your home wasn't built 40 or 50 years ago. Why should they build it, then? Because there was Satyricon84 or whoever else needing it.

And this is the same reason why they will build the Pedemontana.
Quote:
Following your reasonment: if you contribute to crowd the city, you need to build in the metropolitan area. Less people no needs of other infrastructured
You're not following my argument. You're telling a total different thing (based on nothing).

If I live in the city I need to infrastructurate THE CITY. If people live in the metropolitan area WE ALL need to infrastructurate the whole metropolitan area, instead of only THE CITY.

It's not a matter of having less people or more people. The number of people is THE SAME.
The matter is having (b.e.) 5-6 mllions people in a compact area of few square kms or having 5-6 millions people in a huge and spreaded area of THOUSANDS of square kms.

It's self-evident that the second situation is way less efficient and needs a lot more infrastructures to work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by to View Post
Because during the industrial revolution the pedemontan area not only in Lombardy but also in Piedmont and Veneto were able to have enough hydropower energy to support the grow. At that time production of electrical energy and their consuption had to be in the same area. The consequences of that is the pedemontan urban area in northern Milan.

Cheers
mmm... I had never thought about it. Very interesting! Thank you!
Mauz® no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2011, 07:41 PM   #2911
Satyricon84
Ice Road Metaller
 
Satyricon84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Monza
Posts: 2,724
Likes (Received): 110

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mauz® View Post
Maybe you don't, but the majority of people do. And the fact it wasn't built 40 years ago means nothing. Maybe also your home wasn't built 40 or 50 years ago. Why should they build it, then? Because there was Satyricon84 or whoever else needing it.
Yes, those who want the highway are all Mauz living far from it and that will take it once or twice. Ah clear... and if there was built in this hood, like many others in other comuni, it's thanks to a thing called "piano regolatore comunale" Do you know it? Seems not cause you blame citiziens....


Quote:
If I live in the city I need to infrastructurate THE CITY. If people live in the metropolitan area WE ALL need to infrastructurate the whole metropolitan area, instead of only THE CITY.
if the traffic in the metropolitan area converges into the city during the rush hour and you go to build an highway distant only 10 Km from one already existent, which follows the same track of the existent passing in zones where the traffic is contents, do you know what does it serve it? It serves as much as this conversation...
Satyricon84 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2011, 08:25 PM   #2912
Verso
Islander
 
Verso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ljubljana
Posts: 22,087
Likes (Received): 4749

Quote:
Originally Posted by GENIUS LOCI View Post
I often mentioned in this thread the project of Monza tunnel
Oh, sorry. Why don't they connect SS36 directly with the eastern bypass (I mean with this interchange)?
Verso no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2011, 08:46 PM   #2913
Mauz®
Utonto
 
Mauz®'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Milano
Posts: 9,814
Likes (Received): 501

Quote:
Originally Posted by Satyricon84 View Post
The project to build the highway is old of 40 years, not where it should pass. You know well what I meant.....
The project is modified according to spend less where possible and have the least impact on the environment and people living in the surroundings. That's the result of trying to make most people possible happy with that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Satyricon84 View Post
Yes, those who want the highway are all Mauz living far from it and that will take it once or twice. Ah clear... and if there was built in this hood, like many others in other comuni, it's thanks to a thing called "piano regolatore comunale" Do you know it? Seems not cause you blame citiziens....
That highway is useful to the whole territory despite it being used by people living far or people living near of it.

BTW lot of people living or working in the area of the Pedemontana wil use it almost everyday. And with them it will be used by a lot of people living far from it, which will avoid to use local roads or other highways... And this will be an advantage for people living everywhere in the region.

Quote:
if the traffic in the metropolitan area converges into the city during the rush hour and you go to build an highway distant only 10 Km from one already existent, which follows the same track of the existent passing in zones where the traffic is contents, do you know what does it serve it? It serves as much as this conversation...
THE TRAFFIC IN THE METROPOLITAN AREA NOT ONLY CONVERGES TOWARDS THE CITY!! Especially in an area like this, where the most people by far live in the HUGE metropolitan area and not in the city and very often work in companies located in other parts of the metropolitan area.

There are a lot of people moving across the hinterland without even touching the city of Milan. But your arguments based on NOTHING don't even consider this fact.
Mauz® no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2011, 08:49 PM   #2914
Mauz®
Utonto
 
Mauz®'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Milano
Posts: 9,814
Likes (Received): 501

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
Oh, sorry. Why don't they connect SS36 directly with the eastern bypass (I mean with this interchange)?
Because it's impossible! Too much urbanization...

BTW there are 2 possible ways to go from the ss36 to the Eastern bypass by driving a short stretch of one of the following infrastructures:
-Northern bypass (A52 "Tangenziale Nord");
-A4

Mauz® no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2011, 08:57 PM   #2915
Verso
Islander
 
Verso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ljubljana
Posts: 22,087
Likes (Received): 4749

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mauz® View Post
Because it's impossible! Too much urbanization...
Tunnel? Ok, it's probably not a good idea to build a tunnel directly under houses...
Verso no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2011, 09:14 PM   #2916
Satyricon84
Ice Road Metaller
 
Satyricon84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Monza
Posts: 2,724
Likes (Received): 110

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mauz® View Post
The project is modified according to spend less where possible and have the least impact on the environment and people living in the surroundings. That's the result of trying to make most people possible happy with that.
http://www.infonodo.org/node/22727 only economical interests

Quote:
BTW lot of people living or working in the area of the Pedemontana wil use it almost everyday. And with them it will be used by a lot of people living far from it, which will avoid to use local roads or other highways... And this will be an advantage for people living everywhere in the region.
As long as don't happen like the toolgate of Agrate Brianza, where people to avoid to pay 3€ daily, enter and exit before the toolgate blocking the SP121 that which runs parallel to Tangenziale Est. Pedemontana won't be free.


Quote:
Especially in an area like this, where the most people by far live in the HUGE metropolitan area and not in the city and very often work in companies located in other parts of the metropolitan area.

There are a lot of people moving across the hinterland without even touching the city of Milan. But your arguments based on NOTHING don't even consider this fact.
My arguments are supported by maps, articles, videos and direct experience living here. Where yours?
Satyricon84 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2011, 09:19 PM   #2917
Satyricon84
Ice Road Metaller
 
Satyricon84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Monza
Posts: 2,724
Likes (Received): 110

http://www.mbnews.it/politica/98-pol...-fantasma.html and as often happen, after approved the project, they change it. Creating problems. Yes but they are only trying to make most people happy with that....
Satyricon84 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2011, 09:21 PM   #2918
Satyricon84
Ice Road Metaller
 
Satyricon84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Monza
Posts: 2,724
Likes (Received): 110

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
Tunnel? Ok, it's probably not a good idea to build a tunnel directly under houses...
Pedemontana will pass directly under houses in some towns
Satyricon84 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2011, 10:47 PM   #2919
Mauz®
Utonto
 
Mauz®'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Milano
Posts: 9,814
Likes (Received): 501

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
Tunnel? Ok, it's probably not a good idea to build a tunnel directly under houses...
The point is not that... The point is that there are already 2 highways connecting ss36 to the Eastern Bypass. No reason to spend more money for another megaproject.

Moreover in that area there are not only buildings, but also a railway, a river and a very complex road network. Moreover it would be necessary to build also another toll station.
For what? Just to add another stretch of highway following a route that 2 already-existing highways serve? It would be just a big waste of money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Satyricon84 View Post
http://www.infonodo.org/node/22727 only economical interests
Weren't you worried about "the investiment of € 4.115.000.000"?

Quote:
As long as don't happen like the toolgate of Agrate Brianza, where people to avoid to pay 3€ daily, enter and exit before the toolgate blocking the SP121 that which runs parallel to Tangenziale Est. Pedemontana won't be free.
This is a trick you can do when you have 2 intersecting highways in the surroundings and one of them is toll-free. It happens also in Monza, between the last exit of the Eastern Bypass and the first access of the Northern Bypass.
But I think the real problem of Agrate Brianza is not that (but I'm not saying nobody does it). The problem is the lack of a direct connection between A4 and the Eastern Bypass branch towards Usmate-Velate, which makes people HAVE TO exit the A4 in Agrate Brianza and reach the Eastern Bypass branch on ordinary roads.

Quote:
My arguments are supported by maps, articles, videos and direct experience living here. Where yours?
Sure... all supported by scientific analysis!
Like your arguments telling that all the traffic would be directed towards the city of Milan. Or the arguments for whose the passing traffic would be only a small part of the global traffic of the area... Sure. Supported by scientific documents!


And why not to discuss about the fact you are against pollution and traffic, but at the same time you're against building a railway?


Pure NIMBY.
Mauz® no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2011, 11:55 PM   #2920
Satyricon84
Ice Road Metaller
 
Satyricon84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Monza
Posts: 2,724
Likes (Received): 110

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mauz® View Post
Weren't you worried about "the investiment of € 4.115.000.000"?
Right. Expropriations pays 2 cents and thousands of euro wasted for it. And we are again on this topic. I know it's difficult to understand for somebody not involved (or maybe yes, have you got some bribes in this project? ), it's not you which will lose proprieties, investiments and activities. For you it's just a good occasion to take pics to post in the forum........


Quote:
This is a trick you can do when you have 2 intersecting highways in the surroundings and one of them is toll-free. It happens also in Monza, between the last exit of the Eastern Bypass and the first access of the Northern Bypass.
But I think the real problem of Agrate Brianza is not that (but I'm not saying nobody does it). The problem is the lack of a direct connection between A4 and the Eastern Bypass branch towards Usmate-Velate, which makes people HAVE TO exit the A4 in Agrate Brianza and reach the Eastern Bypass branch on ordinary roads.
I'm not speaking of that, I'm speaking of the people bypassing Agrate Brianza toolgate on Tangenziale Est direction south. The SP121 from Agrate towards Carugate is busy, not the other way round. Hard to understand?


Quote:
Sure... all supported by scientific analysis!
I'm still waiting for your scientific analysis. For the moment I just heard a lot of bla bla bla...


Quote:
And why not to discuss about the fact you are against pollution and traffic, but at the same time you're against building a railway?
When did I say I'm against the railway? I said that I'm against the station for stocking goods which will be just outside the exit of Bellusco, cause it will just increas the truck traffic of the area. There's a huge difference but...non c'č peggior sordo di chi non vuol sentire


Quote:
Pure NIMBY.
I'm too much a gentleman to reply to this...but you can imaging the answer
Satyricon84 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
autobahn, autostrada, highways, italia, italy, motorways

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:29 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium